Match-up Discussion Bane Matchup Discussion

[Doombawkz]

I'm going to be brutally honest.

I don't think you fight the right Batman players.

I'll be honest as well then.
I was speaking strictly in response to your commentary, I have yet to even draw upon my own experience outside of my comment of it being 6-4. If you notice, everything I've said thus far has related only to the conversation you've made.

... Unless you are trying to insist that you are not the right Batman player, to which I would have to disagree.

 

[PND_Ketchup]

I'll be honest as well then.
I was speaking strictly in response to your commentary, I have yet to even draw upon my own experience outside of my comment of it being 6-4. If you notice, everything I've said thus far has related only to the conversation you've made.

Because the options you're mentioning aren't as good as you think they are in a real match.

Everything you're saying that doesn't make the match bad is a huge risk on Banes part, he has high risk for average reward in this matchup, and Bane has to work really really hard to get in, before he even start taking those risks up close.

 

[Doombawkz]

Because the options you're mentioning aren't as good as you think they are in a real match.

Everything you're saying that doesn't make the match bad is a huge risk on Banes part, he has high risk for average reward in this matchup, and Bane has to work really really hard to get in, before he even start taking those risks up close.

Its no risk to us on account of being safe on block in every point, and the only real response you have being standing 1 isn't even a viable one. As I've said thrice now, if you can keep us away its one thing... But up close, we don't have to take any "risks" because we gain all the benefit with not much coming against us. Our armor up close beats out everything barring parry being your riskiest option, and running away which ties into the whole "if you can keep us at a distance.".

Lets escape theory and go into fact. What does Batman have on wake-up to stop a jump-in body splash?

What does Batman have to stop b.1 grab, and does it still work for him in stopping b.11 command grab?

What does Batman have to pressure us with within 1 CL that we can't just armor through?

 

[PND_Ketchup]

Its no risk to us on account of being safe on block in every point, and the only real response you have being standing 1 isn't even a viable one. As I've said thrice now, if you can keep us away its one thing... But up close, we don't have to take any "risks" because we gain all the benefit with not much coming against us. Our armor up close beats out everything barring parry being your riskiest option, and running away which ties into the whole "if you can keep us at a distance.".

Lets escape theory and go into fact. What does Batman have on wake-up to stop a jump-in body splash?

There's nothing theory about it, I'm talking about experiencing a matchup constantly with a High level bane vs A high level batman.

Watching UsedforGlue and Mustard play constantly is NOT theory fighter.

How do you beat Banes body splash? Block it and backdash, it gives shit hitstun and is an obvious crossup, everyone should know that by now. you can backdash and then wiff punish should Bane go for a string.Yes everything is safe, but leaves bane at minus, so unless you want to risk back to back specials every time, you're putting yourself in a frametrap, and considering you use venom to give armor in those reads, there's a good chance you'll be in debuff when you deal with the counter batman pressure.

Not to mention he can simply B2,3 to escape anywhere but the corner.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

I laughed at cyborg. Its not an easy MU...

Oh wait, yes it is. His blockstun infinite is already confirmed to be patched out, and he doesn't have enough to make us not simply level 3 venom through his puny projectile game in the beginning and shark him until he is gone. This is one of the few MUs where we can get away with using level 3 venom because he has next to nothing to stop us with, and everything he "does" have isn't going to be too crippling.

Bats is a harder MU, honestly.

We must be looking at two different sets of Cyborg players. I see MK9 Kabal with instant air fireballs all day with occasional missiles and ground fireball. Bane can never dash without getting hit by a fireball and his walk covers less ground than the Cyborg's air fireball recoil. This will be 90% of the match. So if you are able to ever dash against a Cyborg player or be in range to land ANY level 3 move, we must be seeing two different play styles altogether.

And Level 3 Venom... I don't ever want to hear that as a Match-up solution against zoning. It's not a solution... it's desperation.

 

[PND_Mustard]

We must be looking at two different sets of Cyborg players. I see MK9 Kabal with instant air fireballs all day with occasional missiles and ground fireball. Bane can never dash without getting hit by a fireball and his walk covers less ground than the Cyborg's air fireball recoil. This will be 90% of the match. So if you are able to ever dash against a Cyborg player or be in range to land ANY level 3 move, we must be seeing two different play styles altogether.

And Level 3 Venom... I don't ever want to hear that as a Match-up solution against zoning. It's not a solution... it's desperation.

very very true. well said.

 

[chief713]

There's nothing theory about it, I'm talking about experiencing a matchup constantly with a High level bane vs A high level batman.

Watching UsedforGlue and Mustard play constantly is NOT theory fighter.

How do you beat Banes body splash? Block it and backdash, it gives shit hitstun and is an obvious crossup, everyone should know that by now. you can backdash and then wiff punish should Bane go for a string.Yes everything is safe, but leaves bane at minus, so unless you want to risk back to back specials every time, you're putting yourself in a frametrap, and considering you use venom to give armor in those reads, there's a good chance you'll be in debuff when you deal with the counter batman pressure.

Not to mention he can simply B2,3 to escape anywhere but the corner.

From my experience, the only time Bane's body splash is a problem at all on wakeup is if you're doing it on an untechable knockdown or after venom upper. After any other special, splash (and in most cases j2) can be backdashed and most wakeup timing reversals will blow it up clean.

And I agree about lvl 3 venom. Any matchup that is dependant on that (Deathstroke, GL) is not even remotely in our favor.

 

[PND_Ketchup]

From my experience, the only time Bane's body splash is a problem at all on wakeup is if you're doing it on an untechable knockdown or after venom upper. After any other special, splash (and in most cases j2) can be backdashed and most wakeup timing reversals will blow it up clean.

And I agree about lvl 3 venom. Any matchup that is dependant on that (Deathstroke, GL) is not even remotely in our favor.

I agree, a match can't be manageable if you need level 3 venom, considering if it debuffs in round 2, there's a good chance you're going to lose because of it.

venom in general doesn't make much sense to me, Bane needs the venom properties to be any kind of threat, but there's a price to pay for using it, where as other characters get trait buffs that have no debuff, but are arguably just as good.

Very odd if you ask me.

 

[chief713]

Because on paper, it sounds justified. Admittedly, the buffs at lvl 3 venom are just stupid and I've ended matches in seconds off of one knockdown. At the same time, like you said, there's been times when the round ends on debuff and at the start of the next round, the opponent hits me with an interactable that I can't escape because of the speed debuff and instantly lose 30%+

If they change it, I'd like for the new venom to be only 1 level and give the damage buffs of lvl 2, the duration and cooldown of lvl 1 and have the projectile invincibility from lvl 3. That'd balance it out nicely IMO.

 

[big_aug]

Just remove the damage taken debuff. Leave the speed and damage output debuffs. The damage output debuff really hurts if you catch someone in a combo after lvl 3 is up. I've lost matches not because I'm taking more damage, but because I couldn't do enough to finish off a sliver of life before they retaliated.

People would still be free to take risks when bane is in cool down for a chance at good damage with little possibility of taking damage themselves. Bane would still be vulnerable to interactables because of mobility. It feels like the way the trait is supposed to be. It feels like common sense.

I don't think any character should be afraid to use the tools they have available. No matter when I go lvl 3, im always thinking i might lose. Especially if I'm ahead. Drop a combo that might have finished the match? You might eat a 50%+ easy combo. We wouldn't have to play with fear if the damage taken wasn't increased. We'd be free to play as normal, but the other player could go nuts.

 

[LEGI0N47]

I agree. There are several characters that get damage buffs as an ability, and recieve no recovery or drawbacks. Speed and damage output is enough. I'm sure some would complain that the damage recieved is massive so it's warrented. But seriously most competant players will see you venom up & just go on guard & play keep away. Your window for doing big damage is actually quite small.

 

[JaredL]

I wouldn't mind seeing banes negatives disappear, if his positives were neutered.

Make the damage buff smaller, and the recharge time longer. That's how I thought it would work anyway. I thought the natural benefit of level 1, was that it was longer and quicker to recharge than level 3. But no, level 3 also must have a HUGE damage debuff and damage taking component.

 

[LEGI0N47]

I wouldn't mind seeing banes negatives disappear, if his positives were neutered.

I disagree. I don't see why they should be neutered. So far he is the only character i've played, notice I said me not a blanket roster statement, who does not have ability to use an EX move or his flat out move set to extend his combo's further. All his do is create more damge for enders. The only way to extend his is to bounce cancel or use an interactable backround, that's it. So without his higher level venom doses he'd never go beyond the high 30's for damage (and that's with a jump in) while a lot of the cast can get almost 50 or over that with a couple bars.

 

[JaredL]

How do you guys deal with Black Adam? His fucking back dash man. Better than Banes! And I say this as someone who plays black adam! I can't deal with other black adams.

 

[iMLGzus]

I disagree. I don't see why they should be neutered. So far he is the only character i've played, notice I said me not a blanket roster statement, who does not have ability to use an EX move or his flat out move set to extend his combo's further. All his do is create more damge for enders. The only way to extend his is to bounce cancel or use an interactable backround, that's it. So without his higher level venom doses he'd never go beyond the high 30's for damage (and that's with a jump in) while a lot of the cast can get almost 50 or over that with a couple bars.

I wholeheartedly agree. Bane's combos need help. I understand he's a grappler, but as it stands, BS isnt enough to make up for his pitiful combo damage and terrible MB specials. Playing both BA and Lobo I find I can EASILY get 48-55% damage off 1 bar. Where Bane can barely hit 40 off two. And BS doesn't make up for that damage gap.

 

[LEGI0N47]

I wholeheartedly agree. Bane's combos need help. I understand he's a grappler, but as it stands, BS isnt enough to make up for his pitiful combo damage and terrible MB specials. Playing both BA and Lobo I find I can EASILY get 48-55% damage off 1 bar. Where Bane can barely hit 40 off two. And BS doesn't make up for that damage gap.

Yup, it's crap. His speed also could use an improvement. I mean he's fucking Bane, he broke the bat! In this game he's lucky to break the wall on Atlantis! It kind of kills me that he is classified as a grappler, he has 1 grappler move that you can use as a combo ender, not a starter, WTF? I look at him as a power character that has been undercut by his trait & poor combo's.

 

[Doombawkz]

I wholeheartedly agree. Bane's combos need help. I understand he's a grappler, but as it stands, BS isnt enough to make up for his pitiful combo damage and terrible MB specials. Playing both BA and Lobo I find I can EASILY get 48-55% damage off 1 bar. Where Bane can barely hit 40 off two. And BS doesn't make up for that damage gap.

Assuming Bane is a combo character? He isn't made for combos.

 

[iMLGzus]

Assuming Bane is a combo character? He isn't made for combos.

That's my point. It's just hidden. What I'm saying is that as a grappler, his one command grab doesnt make up for the huge damage gap that so many characters can create with just one bar while we need to take risks to get even half as much. He either needs a serious buff or an overhaul.

 

[Doombawkz]

That's my point. It's just hidden. What I'm saying is that as a grappler, his one command grab doesnt make up for the huge damage gap that so many characters can create with just one bar while we need to take risks to get even half as much. He either needs a serious buff or an overhaul.

You realize we cap out more or less 55-60% one bar simple-execution combos at level 2 venom (the one without the crippling debuff) by doing body splash b.23 123 EX body press. People ignore it, but level 2 gives some hefty damage for the comparably low risk it carries.

 

[iMLGzus]

You realize we cap out more or less 55-60% one bar simple-execution combos at level 2 venom (the one without the crippling debuff) by doing body splash b.23 123 EX body press. People ignore it, but level 2 gives some hefty damage for the comparably low risk it carries.

I see your point, it's just the fact that we HAVE to go to level 2 Venom to get the same damage that characters can get without risk, more or less. And yes, i understand we can potentially mitigate the debuff timer through smart play using bounces and combos but that fact is that if we slip up and take a hit on debuff, we're getting hurt bad. Not level 3 venom debuff hurt, but enough to matter. Now I'm no high-level Bane player, and I can't speak for every other Bane player, but as a rule, I try not to go past level 1 venom unless im closing the game. Not even the round. I'm talking the game.

 

[Doombawkz]

Venom isn't about Damage. Bane isn't about damage, fool.
Its about abusing the fact that we have happy-meal armor.

 

[iMLGzus]

What's happy-meal armor against dollar menu keep out?

Get it? It's cheap. Hue. I understand Bane isn't about damage (who needs damage in a fighting game, amirite?), but it's the fact that it can be hard to get in, so we need as much damage as possible when we do get in. Now I'll agree this isn't a problem if we can stay in, but if we get pushed back out again, we need to make that damage count. And when we have to work so hard for the same reward that other characters can get using 1/4 of the work, something might be wrong.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

If I'm going to Venom level 2, land a jump in, burn meter for a combo, give up momentum from a throw that pushes them out, AND give them a ton of meter while gaining little due to venom meter gain penalty, I should be getting close to 70%. Sound stupid? Well I took 40% chip from junk on the screen just to get a CHANCE to pull that off. Nevermind that I will be in cooldown shortly after the combo. I shouldn't even have to suggest what happens if I MISS the combo or they escape with interactables.

 

[AK Black Preon]

So there was someone who asked me forgot who, but were curious on the Doomsday MU and how to deal with his pesky meteor drops and dumb crap. Although he's not too much different than most characters, just make sure when you're on him he can't trait.

 

[Doombawkz]

What's happy-meal armor against dollar menu keep out?

Get it? It's cheap. Hue. I understand Bane isn't about damage (who needs damage in a fighting game, amirite?), but it's the fact that it can be hard to get in, so we need as much damage as possible when we do get in. Now I'll agree this isn't a problem if we can stay in, but if we get pushed back out again, we need to make that damage count. And when we have to work so hard for the same reward that other characters can get using 1/4 of the work, something might be wrong.

We are the dollar menu! We are here to fulfill Ron' mc' Don's destiny!

Anyways its not so much we aren't about damage, its more we aren't solely about damage, and the benefit the happy meal armor gives us on top of having access to level 2/3 venom is pretty hefty. Every special attack comes with a toy.