I give up on wake up attacks.

[Vulcan Hades]

Oh ok, yeah I get it now.

It's a pretty good idea actually now that I think about it. That Green Lantern example has happened to me a lot and yeah if wake ups were always easy to perform some characters would have like 0 reward/mixups after a knockdown on some characters lol.

Some types of knockdown are just tricky and make you get up super fast which makes it nearly impossible to react/time a wake up move. I guess these types of knockdown have the purpose of catching you by surprise/off guard. While other knockdowns are "obvious" and give you plenty of time to assess the situation and wake up attack or not.

 

[Dandy J]

again... A LOT of us have no issue getting our wu attack, why do you? are you SURE the problem is the game?

Well it's not really about the wakeup attacks, it's more your argument regarding them. They aren't hard, just awkward. I heard the wakeup window in this game is 6f, dunno if that's correct. That's bigger compared to other fighting games (sf4 is 4f, kof is 5). I'm doing them fine and I'm sure myself and others will get even more consistent in the future. BUT I don't think making the window bigger, or increasing the input leniency to make them easier would make the game worse. Like you said, you can do a wakeup anytime you want, and then say that some characters need the wakeup timing to be the way it is. But if players can do it every time, then whoever those characters are don't actually have that strength.

 

[Ozzer]

I am completely in the David Sirlin camp on this issue and think it is poor design to have a basic concept of the game hidden behind a 1P wall of execution. If you are naturally gifted like Tom or have spent extra time alone in training mode, you have access to a wakeup attack whenever you want it. Again, this is for a basic gameplay mechanic, not a damaging combo. This is mostly a game about 2P interaction, not a 1P test of execution. Obviously fighting games demand good 1P execution, but it's all about how far you want to turn the dial.

The current-gen Street Fighter games work just fine with lenient input for reversals. I hardly think of the wakeup game for those titles as mostly in the grounded person's favor.

If you are worried about 100% wakeup attacks on demand being too powerful for some of the cast, then make the wakeup attacks weaker (but not harder to do - super moves are easy to do yet are balanced in other ways to make up for this) or give those cast members better options. Street Fighter x Tekken has recently added "air invincible" strikes to give some of the cast options against some reversals (of course, also against air attacks). Penalizing the less-dexterous is not the way to go.

BTW, Tom, this is all contingent on your admission that you and your friends have no problem getting out wakeup attacks when you want them. If they were less reliable for everyone, as in Super Street Fighter II Turbo, then there would be no strong advantage left to the dexterous.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

I understand that I was just saying. That was actually one of my biggest complaints about mk9 was knockdowns weere more in the favor of the person who was knocked down half the time.

That's just the thing, this ISN'T MK9. There are just some fundamental aspect habit's that you're just going to have to learn to get rid of.

But I can't say I'm not guilty, I still can't get used to the fact that I can't late techroll or that I can't slide my thumb across the pad to do a BF move.

 

[Onilordasmodeus]

It really seems like people just like to complain. If you can't wakeup, practice, but at the same time realize you have other options as well, like the push block, back dashing (i think), and armored interactibles (on certain stages).

I am completely in the David Sirlin camp on this issue and think it is poor design to have a basic concept of the game hidden behind a 1P wall of execution. If you are naturally gifted like Tom or have spent extra time alone in training mode, you have access to a wakeup attack whenever you want it. Again, this is for a basic gameplay mechanic, not a damaging combo. This is mostly a game about 2P interaction, not a 1P test of execution. Obviously fighting games demand good 1P execution, but it's all about how far you want to turn the dial.

The current-gen Street Fighter games work just fine with lenient input for reversals. I hardly think of the wakeup game for those titles as mostly in the grounded person's favor.

If you are worried about 100% wakeup attacks on demand being too powerful for some of the cast, then make the wakeup attacks weaker (but not harder to do - super moves are easy to do yet are balanced in other ways to make up for this) or give those cast members better options. Street Fighter x Tekken has recently added "air invincible" strikes to give some of the cast options against some reversals (of course, also against air attacks). Penalizing the less-dexterous is not the way to go.

BTW, Tom, this is all contingent on your admission that you and your friends have no problem getting out wakeup attacks when you want them. If they were less reliable for everyone, as in Super Street Fighter II Turbo, then there would be no strong advantage left to the dexterous.

Everything that comes from Sirlin I hold in high regard, but to be real, most casuals don't even know what a wakeup attack is, so making wu's easier for casual players is a moot point IMO. The bottom line is, even with the tight execution window in this game (easier than in other games people have said), wu are doable--highly doable--, so those who practice and learn the game are rewarded for the time they've put in.

It doesn't take a player with a genius level intelect and/or the best execution presicion to put off these moves, just practice, and the ability to know what you want to do. The moves in this game are still far easier than say a DP or an ultra in SF for the average/casual player.

 

[Wigy]

It does seem like a pointless thing to make difficult.. the whole aspect of skill in the wake-up department is reading your opponent, not the actual execution. The execution comes in for actual live play. Seems like a pointless barrier to me.

 

[Hellion_96]

That's just the thing, this ISN'T MK9. There are just some fundamental aspect habit's that you're just going to have to learn to get rid of.

But I can't say I'm not guilty, I still can't get used to the fact that I can't late techroll or that I can't slide my thumb across the pad to do a BF move.

I'm aware it isn't mk9. I prefer the harder wakeup in Injustice over mk9. I dont think you read my post correctly.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

I'm aware it isn't mk9. I prefer the harder wakeup in Injustice over mk9. I dont think you read my post correctly.

Ah. You're right, I misread it. But honestly, the MK9 system of favoring the knocked-down player brought up an interesting mechanic whether it was intended or not.

 

[Obanye]

My only issue with the wake-up system is safe combo starting moves that get better on wakeup due to added invincibility. Who the fuck thought that was a good idea? There's always pushblock, super armor for everyone and invincible backdashes available for everyone. Why does the grounded character need even more of an advantage?

 

[RYX]

My only issue with the wake-up system is safe combo starting moves that get better on wakeup due to added invincibility. Who the fuck thought that was a good idea? There's always pushblock, super armor for everyone and invincible backdashes available for everyone. Why does the grounded character need even more of an advantage?

Why don't you take advantage of those options to counter them?

 

[Obanye]

Why don't you take advantage of those options to counter them?

Good point. I'm probably just used to Street Fighter where you always have a complete disadvantage on the ground .

 

[RYX]

Good point. I'm probably just used to Street Fighter where you always have a complete disadvantage on the ground .

Always something new to learn.

 

[CptXecution]

How about just blocking?

Just because we were spoiled rotten in MK doesn't mean every game after should be the same. Knocking someone down should reward the person attacking not the other way around, why should you get rewarded for getting knocked down? That makes no sense.

Here's my piece of advice, block the cross up, mix up, vortex or whatever and pushblock, simple.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Everyone is comparing apples and oranges.

Tom: "Wakeups are consistently achievable offline if you practice" (this means that really good players will wakeup successfully most of the time offline)
(that also means that adding a few frames won't make a difference for these people, because the people they're playing against can already wakeup successfully most of the time)

KL: "Online it's tricky" (this is true, and it's an issue that will affect a lot of people over the game's lifetime).

So one person is saying that the people they play offline can wakeup consistently anyway -- thus adding a few frames to the window would not affect this. The other person is saying that adding a few frames would aid online play, and it def. would affect this. So really, everyone is agreeing.

 

[DuBBer Kiir]

My only issue with the wake-up system is safe combo starting moves that get better on wakeup due to added invincibility. Who the fuck thought that was a good idea? There's always pushblock, super armor for everyone and invincible backdashes available for everyone. Why does the grounded character need even more of an advantage?

It depends on the matchup IMO. If you're fighting a Doomsday who cross-up body splashes you non-stop, there's some ambiguity in blocking said cross-up, a situation that is further worsened by having less than 2 decent wake-ups. It's just a useful crutch to get you out of a high pressure situation, for the time being at least. I'm sure in about 4 months all these obnoxious mix-up shennanigans won't seem as prominent.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

I think we're missing the point of this thread. The question is whether the lack of accessibility of wake-up attacks to a significant number of players a good thing or not. The high level of difficulty is only good if the low level players can appreciate the high execution. For something that gives so much reward when done right and such high risk when done wrong, I'm in the camp that if too many people still can't it right after a month into the game, then we should consider making the window larger. I haven't had as much difficulty with reversals, but that's because I wasn't spoiled in MK9 with a character that had a busted wake-up attack... which is why I probably lost so much.

 

[AU_IM_DIGIMON]

I wish MK9 had Injustice's wake up system. Invincibility and frame input windows are much tighter. I 100% agree with Tom that they should be practiced and you earn the wake up.

People having trouble doing inputs for special moves either during wake up or mid combos (trying to 2 in 1):

Try making sure the controller/arcade stick is at neutral before trying to do your next input. Dunno if this makes sense. Here I'll try to explain -

I'll use Joker for example:

after a b+3 mid combo I'll do d+2 (his uppercut) and 2 in 1 into teeth (qcb+3)

well when I do the d+2 and from there, while I'm holding the down input of the d+2, try to finish the qcb input...the TEETH DOES NOT COME OUT CONSISTENTLY. Sometimes I'll get nothing.

I'm using Alternate controls (SF inputs). So I'm not sure if it has anything to do with that.

But if I do d+2 > neutral (not having any directional input held or pressed) > then do qcb+3...I get teeth every time.

So if people are trying to mash things out, and everyone is guilty of that, either mid combo or trying to wake up...this is probably why your moves aren't coming out when you're expecting them to. Game has natural input delay. This is a way around it. I never had an issue with this in MK9...just saying.

 

[PND i2 Gaug3]

Making things easier punishes the better players. Changing things to allow the more casual players to play around a pro level a little easier is never good.

I dont agree with this tom if they made the wakeup window larger it wouldnt punish better players, i dont see how it could possibly.

Better players: playing against x character knows what he/she can do to stuff a,b or c wakeup and still be safe against wakeup D which is the best wakeup in the game.

Opponent: this guy keeps pressuring me on wake up I'll teach him......wakeup with a gets punished, tries b gets shit on curls up into a little ball and cries untill the match is over.

Better player knew the opponents character enough and punished for them trying to punish

opponent realises he doesnt know what to do when he is on the floor goes into training mode and learns what to do against what he just went thru

now are you saying that making the wakeup window larger is going to take away any of what i just said

This message is brought to you by The Hateocracy

 

[ZigZag]

It doesn't matter how much I practice the timing, my retarded ass characters don't do them when I input the command. Did NRS intend to make it this way or do they just suck at programming?

Who do you play?

 

[xWildx]

It'd probably be easier if the game was any more responsive than a patient on life support.

 

[CalDW19940]

I think the input delay is the bigger problem rather than the window for wake ups. If the timing window for using a wake up attack changes every time you get knocked down online then how on Earth are you supposed to use them? :V

 

[Dandy J]

another discussion for another thread (which already exists )

 

[SLy]

Wakeup attacks are a killer online.. but honestly its because you need to practice the timing. Practice with a friend in online training mode. It should be a lot easier once you get the timing down. Not saying that you will get it 100% after that but it will give you a better idea when to buffer moves.

 

[Punk]

It doesn't matter how much I practice the timing, my retarded ass characters don't do them when I input the command. Did NRS intend to make it this way or do they just suck at programming?

The game is not kind to people with that mentality. I suggest you hustle up and drop that attitude, trooper.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

read my last post. yes, it would hurt. An extra 2-4 frames is a BIG deal..


Making things easier punishes the better players. Changing things to allow the more casual players to play around a pro level a little easier is never good.

I`m pretty sure Tom would agree that just the 4 frames of extra wakeup invincibility they added to MK9 killed any chance of Nightwolf being a competitive character, due to the destruction of his EX Lightening setups after knockdowns.

And is it even POSSIBLE to have frame data following different rules online? It`s not like the game connects to a different engine when it goes online.

And NO, do not make wakeups easier to do. It requires some good skill to consistently pull them off. That`s good. It gives you those moments when you`re watching the pros and you say "Damn, that guy is so good!"