Strategy More... Venom...! - Venom, properties, and strategy [OUTDATED]

[D_Matt_Ma]

I have a hard time against Deathstroke spammers on anything less than 3 venoms consumed.

So here I am stuck pumping max venoms just to eat the guns and get close enough to make him regret that decision. The problem is that after that... well you know... 3 venom cooldown + unblockable guns = gonna have a bad time.

Any tips?

I don't use level 3 venom at all. The way I fight him is ugly... I walk/dash forward slowly and hope I can convert when I get close. If I can't, I start over. Each try leads to about 50% damage from chip and stray shots.

In other words, there are no tips. You're not winning unless you're significantly better.

 

[Red Reaper]

I don't use level 3 venom at all. The way I fight him is ugly... I walk/dash forward slowly and hope I can convert when I get close. If I can't, I start over. Each try leads to about 50% damage from chip and stray shots.

In other words, there are no tips. You're not winning unless you're significantly better.

Holy shit, when did you kome back?

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

Holy shit, when did you kome back?

I've been lurking in the shadows... teaching Batman how to be Batman. I saw your matches on stream too. Don't worry. Just because I live 5 min from super arcade and can show up to WNF to win every week to win it, doesn't mean I should. I'm trying to learn humility.

 

[Red Reaper]

I've been lurking in the shadows... teaching Batman how to be Batman. I saw your matches on stream too. Don't worry. Just because I live 5 min from super arcade and can show up to WNF to win every week to win it, doesn't mean I should. I'm trying to learn humility.

Haha... Man. My match against RIP my buttons were wrong thanx to that glitch....

Not that I was playing the match korrectly with Raven but with Superman, those Flying Anti-Airs were me krouching then pressing F2....

 

[King Checkmate]

I Pretty much Like using fatties. Doomsday is my main and Bane was my second choice, but i lacked the understanding of how his Trait worked, to be honest i just thought he gained some damage and then the horrible Debuff. So i went out to try Grundy. Grundy is great, I have no complains on the character, except the character itself, i don't really like using mindless zombies that much...
Lex is just not my type. I feel hes a good zoner thou...
So i went back to Bane and i decided to get some help from the TYM community, and found this Post.

Now that i understand his trait i think i will retake Bane at the lab see if he likes me , with these numbers bane seems very usable, if not a LOT better of that i thought he was. LOL +1 Venom, armor on almost all specials ? that's golden...
Plus Doomsday is pretty simple to use and i already have him mastered, to be honest and i have lots of LAB time and no one to invest it on...

Thanks Doombawkz for reviving the venom addict in me.

+1

 

[King Checkmate]

Another thing , FOR THE PEOPLE WHO SAY BANE IS LOW TIER.

LOL. Hes just not GL,AM,DS easy to use. Hes a complicated character that needs serious time in the LAb and training with him thats all. And takes time and effort to fully use his trait.Those ''tiers'' we have at the moment are more difficulty measurements than character capabilities.....(higher being easier)

My opinion here , so keep at it Bane fans, you are doing it right.

 

[shaowebb]

The easiest to learn aren't necessarily the best in the game
Keep putting in the work with Bane and stay careful with your venom usage. Set it up right and you should be good, but oh lord don't go blowing it thinking its x-factor out there. I'm interested in seeing how this character evolves as folks learn his gameplan more and more when facing him. Jury is out in my book whether people will have an easy answer against smart Bane's at high level.

 

[Oogalord]

if i'm feeling cagey i'll pop Venom 1 right at the start of the match just to take an armored swing right away. if the other player is like me and also takes a swing, i usually win out.

if i need armor, i use it, and is needed fairly often in some matchups. i try to cover my debuff with normal throws and jd3 blockstings. sticking to Venom 1 makes it so i'm hardly caught without Venom when needed. recently though, it's been hard to ignore the damage increase with Venom 2; makes those MB charges and c-grabs pretty juicy. the debuff sucks of course, but the patch is great and makes it much more tolerable at V2.

Venom 3 is still for kill shots and blind desperation. the patch helps, but the drastic amount of extra damage you take in debuff is still just not worth it to me. a competent opponent can kill you outright with two good combos.

 

[Doombawkz]

Damn, just realized I'll have to edit this mess...

 

[GGA Max]

Attn. @Doombawkz

There are errors in the formula that need to be dealt with. This is a good time to address this because the patch changed the venom duration anyway.

Fundamentally I think what you were trying to account for is how the sober time and attributes offset the venomed time and attributes. And so the formula should be this (in simplifies terms).

(Damage increase + Defense Increase) * time venomed
-
(Damage decrease + Defense Decrease) * time sober = VLE

The "Defense increase' is zero but was shown just to make sense with the other Defense parameter.
Because Damage decrease and Defense decrease are both bad, they should be added together.


But in yours, you subtracted them:

(Damage increase + Defense Increase) * time venomed
-
(** - **Damage decrease + Defense decrease) * time sober = VLE


If this isn't clear, the problem is because you do
DW - LZ = (aka damage decrease)
But this would give you a negative number. But your defense decrease (DT - LZ) is a positive number.
This is obviously a problem because they are both bad and should have the SAME sign.

To fix this, just make sure you do [(LZ - DW) + (DT - LZ)] in the second half of your formula. They'll all come out positive numbers and you'll be able to remove the absolute value signs

Hope everything made sense! Nice to see someone using math on here .

Oh one more thing! Level 3 is much better than it appears on here because you will be venomed for a long duration from stage 1 AND 2 before you get to 3. (BUT without having level 1 and 2's negative effects!)

 

[Doombawkz]

To fix this, just make sure you do [(LZ - DW) + (DT - LZ)] in the second half of your formula. They'll all come out positive numbers and you'll be able to remove the absolute value signs

Hope everything made sense! Nice to see someone using math on here .

Oh one more thing! Level 3 is much better than it appears on here because you will be venomed for a long duration from stage 1 AND 2 before you get to 3. (BUT without having level 1 and 2's negative effects!)

... EDIT:

Doing the flat amount minus the withdrawl and then subtracting the damage taken from the flat amount would equal out to some wonky numbers. For example...

DV = 1.1
LZ = 1
DW = .8
DT = 1.03
DD = 3
VD = 8

By your numbers, it would end up [(1-.8) + (1.03-1)] which would equal out to .23. Multiply by duration to keep it in stride and it equals out to .69
[(1.1-1)]*8 would still equal out to .8

Taking all away, that means you only gain ~11% efficiency from level 1.

VLE = [(1.25-1)*7 - [(1-0.6) + (1.11-1)]*6
VLE = (.25)*7 - [0.4 + .11]*6
VLE = (1.75) - [.55]*6
VLE = 1.75 - 3.3
VLE = -1.55

VLE = [(1.5-1)]*6 - [(1-0.3) + (1.35-1)] *9
VLE = (.5)*6 - [(0.7) + (.35)] *9
VLE = 3 - [9.45]
VLE = 3 - 9.45
VLE = -6.45

By the old formula's numbers, you are saying we gain 11% efficiency from level 1, our previously best venom, and at level 3 we take a negative ~650% efficiency. At level 2 we somehow lose off 150% efficiency as well.

You realize using this formula you've suggested with the same terming, going from 1 to 3 in a line yields about -800% efficiency. Which is much worse than you said it would seem.

 

[Doombawkz]

(Damage increase + Defense Increase) * time venomed
-
(Damage decrease + Defense Decrease) * time sober = VLE

1.1 + 0 * 8
-
.8 + .03 * 3 (or) .2 + 0.3 * 3

= 8.8 - 2.49 (or) 8.8 - 0.69

~630% for Level 1 or ~810% for level 1


1.25 + 0 * 7
-
.6 + .11 * 6 (or) 0.4 + .11 * 6

= 8.75 - 3.96 (or) 8.75 - 2.64

~ 479% for level 2 (or) ~ 610% for level 2


1.5 + 0 * 6
-
.3 + .35 * 9 (or) 0.7 + .35 * 9

= 9 - 5.85 (or) 9 - 9.45

315% For level 3 (or) -45% for level 3.



As you can see, the numbers are a bit skewed and quite a few people would probably tell you that old level 2 venom did not reap a 479% increase in efficiency by itself. Your "simplest form" equation doesn't work for this kind of stuff. 315% boost on old level 3 would've made it worth it to have the debuff.

 

[GGA Max]

(Damage increase + Defense Increase) * time venomed
-
(Damage decrease + Defense Decrease) * time sober = VLE

1.1 + 0 * 8
-
.8 + .03 * 3 (or) .2 + 0.3 * 3

= 8.8 - 2.49 (or) 8.8 - 0.69

~630% for Level 1 or ~810% for level 1

Sorry for each of those parameters I meant difference:
Venomed whatever - normal what ever

So like for level one would be

(.1 + 0)*3
-
(.2 + .03)*3

= .3 - .69 = -.39

 

[Doombawkz]

Sorry for each of those parameters I meant difference:
Venomed whatever - normal what ever

So like for level one would be

(.1 + 0)*3
-
(.2 + .03)*3

= .3 - .69 = -.39

Which means level 1, our previously best venom choice, still reaps -39% efficiency?

 

[big_aug]

We don't need numbers to tell us that Venom is awesome any longer.

 

[Doombawkz]

We don't need numbers to tell us that Venom is awesome any longer.

Yeah, but honestly its better to have it in numbers because it makes me look smart, and you can all pretend to know what it means too.

Also, when it comes to finding efficient combos its good to know what we give in contrast to what we take.


And for me to update, honestly I just need an approximation on what the new damage taken is and I can make it work.

 

[GGA Max]

Which means level 1, our previously best venom choice, still reaps -39% efficiency?

The others will have even more negative magnitudes. Do you at least see what I mean that while sober the damage decrease and defense decrease should be added since they are both bad?

 

[Doombawkz]

The others will have even more negative magnitudes. Do you at least see what I mean that while sober the damage decrease and defense decrease should be added since they are both bad?

Yes, however 3 seconds of 80% damage and 0.03 damage taken doesn't take away 39% efficiency from having 110% damage for almost 3x the duration of that. You need to multiply your amounts based on the duration of the venomed and sober. Your first line should be *8, not *3.

Also my equation is (DW+(DT-LZ)-LZ)
Which is...
DT-LZ (being the 0.3 for level 1)
+
DW (0.8)
Meaning it ends up at .83, the negative factors ARE added together and then taken from their base values as a whole.

 

[GGA Max]

So like for level one would be

(.1 + 0)*8
-
(.2 + .03)*3

= .8 - .69 = .11

Whoops, this would be correct. Sorry if this is confusing, I'm half playing bane and writing about him. So I do multiply the duration.

 

[Doombawkz]

Whoops, this would be correct. Sorry if this is confusing, I'm half playing bane and writing about him. So I do multiply the duration.

Now assuming what you quoted is true, you would need to go to my revamp of the equations, being...

... EDIT:

Doing the flat amount minus the withdrawl and then subtracting the damage taken from the flat amount would equal out to some wonky numbers. For example...

DV = 1.1
LZ = 1
DW = .8
DT = 1.03
DD = 3
VD = 8

By your numbers, it would end up [(1-.8) + (1.03-1)] which would equal out to .23. Multiply by duration to keep it in stride and it equals out to .69
[(1.1-1)]*8 would still equal out to .8

Taking all away, that means you only gain ~11% efficiency from level 1.

VLE = [(1.25-1)*7 - [(1-0.6) + (1.11-1)]*6
VLE = (.25)*7 - [0.4 + .11]*6
VLE = (1.75) - [.55]*6
VLE = 1.75 - 3.3
VLE = -1.55

VLE = [(1.5-1)]*6 - [(1-0.3) + (1.35-1)] *9
VLE = (.5)*6 - [(0.7) + (.35)] *9
VLE = 3 - [9.45]
VLE = 3 - 9.45
VLE = -6.45

By the old formula's numbers, you are saying we gain 11% efficiency from level 1, our previously best venom, and at level 3 we take a negative ~650% efficiency. At level 2 we somehow lose off 150% efficiency as well.

You realize using this formula you've suggested with the same terming, going from 1 to 3 in a line yields about -800% efficiency. Which is much worse than you said it would seem.

 

[GGA Max]

Doombawkz

Yes that's what I'm saying, because now those two bad things are not offsetting each other. Are the numbers a little wackier? Yes, but that's how the cookie crumbles.

And as we can all see one reason they're more negative because bane doesn't have a defense increase while venomed.

 

[big_aug]

You can't quantify having armor on every special. An equation is good in theory, but it fails to capture just how effective Venom actually is in practice.

 

[Doombawkz]

Doombawkz

Yes that's what I'm saying, because now those two bad things are not offsetting each other. Are the numbers a little wackier? Yes, but that's how the cookie crumbles.

And as we can all see one reason they're more negative because bane doesn't have a defense increase while venomed.

Still, these numbers don't give accurate depictions of how efficient (or how worth it) it can be to go to these stages.
By these numbers, its not worth it to even use venom in the slightest. My personal example showed that in previous times, going level 1 was worth it by about 30% total (given you are going to be doing something like 110 x 8 vs 80 x 3), which is generally accurate.

Level 2 wasn't efficient but it wasn't counter productive, and the result coming from it (only 1% increase in total due to the harsher and more lengthly cooldown) catered to that, there wasn't enough incentive to go to 2 as a goal but if you did for damage then it was a plus. On top of that, it had a 6 second cooldown which would be combo'd through meaning if you could circumvent it the damage boost would give you 175% efficiency total.

Level 3 was the big bite, the one everyone knew wasn't worth it for the obvious reasons, and a 15% drop from having no venom told the tale. Getting rid of the cooldown or avoiding it allowed us to basically get a huge 300% benefit, but it was still an inefficient choice.

 

[Doombawkz]

You can't quantify having armor on every special. An equation is good in theory, but it fails to capture just how effective Venom actually is in practice.

True, but you won't be using only specials. Above that, the armor may or may not ever come into play directly depending on the MU and needs of the moment. Though it can't be quantified, from a damage stand-point it can be shown what is the best choice for general use, damage, and the whatnot.

 

[big_aug]

True, but you won't be using only specials. Above that, the armor may or may not ever come into play directly depending on the MU and needs of the moment. Though it can't be quantified, from a damage stand-point it can be shown what is the best choice for general use, damage, and the whatnot.

Armor and eventual projectile immunity are the most important characteristics of the trait though. If they aren't coming into play, then you aren't using it right.