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Explain me frames, pls!

Rokinlobster

Rokinlobster

Nightwolf of the galaxy
What character is that picture from? 9 frame mid hitting move that is +1 on block. I think Dizzy has found his main.

A lot of people have answered. The best answer is going to the genreal frame data thread and reading sombernes' explinations.
 
Critical-Limit

Critical-Limit

Apprentice
While you may not 100% need frame data to play well.

Frame data will unlock the game's potential exponentially. you can often find things out w/o even going into the lab to "test" it. You can just clearly see in text what would/wouldn't work. It doesn't always translate perfectly, because you don't really account for spacing/pushback in frame data.

So something that's like -15 on block. Can be safe if the push back is really really good.


but Frame data makes it so I can "skip trial and error" for specific things and I can just find out by a quick handling of math.


It's just a tool, and understanding it can be very helpful to your growth with your character in early and mid-stages of you learning your character's potential.
 
K

Killzone

Warrior
Thanks to everyone for replying. I do understand it now.

But I still ask myself, how should frames help me to become a better player?
Is the point of frames to pick up characters and study their frames to kinda know how fast their typical attacks are and for how long they put me into a hitstun?
Or to know where an opponent might be able to do something with a fast attack, if I stick to a slow attack for to often, or simply have to include it into a combo-string which starts fast, yet has a slow following up attack?

When I think about frames, I think about fractions of a second, where it's basically impossible for a human to react to it, because we are not flies.

I do understand that my 6 frames jab would beat out an 9 frames jab, if we fire it up at the same time and I do understand that the opponent might be able to do something to me, if I use one half of a string, but somewhere in between there comes a short period of time, where he could attack me, if he times it right, but it still feels like everything happens way too fast to actually mean something to someone.

The only example where I would consider frame data as helpful is if for example Johnny Cage had a simple string of 1, 1, 2 and I was playing Smoke and I knew that after his 1, 1 there is a short period of time where I can attack him, before he is able to use his 2, but uhm - I don't know what I'm talking about. Sorry!
 
Grumptronix

Grumptronix

Fuck off, I'm not grumpy
There's plenty of threads about frame data in this forum if you're looking for more information. You don't need to create a thread for everything that pops to your head.
 
HGTV Soapboxfan

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
Frame data can seem overwhelming and difficult to apply in the heat of a match at first, but you would be surpised how quickly you can start to apply it once you get used to it. Then after that you will be able to learn match ups quckily because you already know all your options.
 
Critical-Limit

Critical-Limit

Apprentice
Grumptronix said:
So Smash Bros is a fighter?
Click to expand...
Yes, albeit it's extremely different. It's probably the deepest fighter I've played and I'm not even joking.


IT has high block low block/ shield stabbing. and wait for it... forward and back block. as well as diagnal blocking.

you can powershield to reflect projectiles or eliminate shield drop lag.

You can cover more space/cover more of your body when you block through light shielding. And lightshielding also allows you slide out of pressure a little further. But at the cost of huge shield stun.


You have no combos you can just dial. when you get combo'd in smash you control your trajectory. So all combos end up being reads/reactions to trajectory.

It has the most freedom of movement in any fighting game. Facing your opponent and facing away from your opponent unlocks a totally different set of moves that are viable because you have backward attacks.

Edge cancelling/L-cancelling/High speed spacing/ Platforms/edge game.

It'd be impossible for me to tell you everything about Melee as a fighter w/o growing a 10 foot beard, grow my nails 10 inches and not see sunlight for months upon months.



Just because you don't have a life-bar doesn't mean its not a fighter.
 
Crathen

Crathen

Death is my business
Moves have a duration too , when you say 6 frames jab you have to add recovery frames to it to get the actual duration of the animation so you're not reacting to 6 frames but let's say 25 frames wich is almost half a second ( also strings have lotsa duration over 60 frames wich is more than a second ) , also when you're playing you have to have your mind on the best moves from certain ranges so you know what he can do wich actually makes you quicker to react at those moves because you know they could be coming at that range.

If someone is staggering strings ( doing a part of the string but not completing it ) usually they are at - or even frames on block and they rely on you reacting late or simply blocking because you're respecting the last hit of the string , that's where you can make a read and anticipate them with a fast move to interrupt their pressure and start your plan.

Also frames do not make you a better player just by memorizing them but applying them in actual situations ( punishing something , taking advantage of plus frames to get your mixup going , interrupting pressure , using - frames moves for baiting certain moves and so on ).

Generally knowing frames makes it way easier to know your options and helps your growt to a better player ( wich includes knowing matchups , frametraps , gimmicks ) than just sitting in practice mode trying every possible situation by every string / poke / position in a game with 25+ character each with their own shit
 
Grumptronix

Grumptronix

Fuck off, I'm not grumpy
Critical-Limit said:
Yes, albeit it's extremely different. It's probably the deepest fighter I've played and I'm not even joking.


IT has high block low block/ shield stabbing.

you can powershield to reflect projectiles or eliminate shield drop lag.

You can cover more space/cover more of your body when you block through light shielding. And lightshielding also allows you slide out of pressure a little further. But at the cost of huge shield stun.


You have no combos you can just dial. when you get combo'd in smash you control your trajectory. So all combos end up being reads/reactions to trajectory.

It has the most freedom of movement in any fighting game. Facing your opponent and facing away from your opponent unlocks a totally different set of moves that are viable because you have backward attacks.

Edge cancelling/L-cancelling/High speed spacing/ Platforms/edge game.

It'd be impossible for me to tell you everything about Melee as a fighter w/o growing a 10 foot beard, grow my nails 10 inches and not see sunlight for months upon months.



Just because you don't have a life-bar doesn't mean its not a fighter.
Click to expand...
I never said it wasn't a fighter because it didn't have a life-bar.
 
zaf

zaf

professor
Thank you Critical-Limit. That's not even the tip of the iceberg. Smash is probably one of the deepest fighters.

Id be here all day if i was to explain why smash is an amazing fighter.

I dont even need to explain why it is a fighter because if someone does not think it is one, then it is their opinion. Not fact.

Most of the time when people say its not a fighter its because they never played it at high level or never seen it being played at a high level.

Just waiy for evo. Watch how hype mk will be.
 
zaf

zaf

professor
Grumptronix said:
I never said it wasn't a fighter because it didn't have a life-bar.
Click to expand...
You would wish their is a life bar. It would make your life easier.

Health %s in this game change everything. Your combos, how you di, your trajectory, if you can cc or not.... Man i can go on.

So ya lets just say how health works in smash is more complex then probably all of mk9. So be happy this is the only game like that
 
Eddy Wang

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
NapoleonComplex said:
It just seems too specific for me. So do you just learn frame data for every character that's viable?
Click to expand...
you will learn, either you like it or not, the better understand and weakness you find on a character, better results and info you get to fight him properly, this is how techs are determined to be gimmicks and so on.
 
Grumptronix

Grumptronix

Fuck off, I'm not grumpy
zaf said:
You would wish their is a life bar. It would make your life easier.

Health %s in this game change everything. Your combos, how you di, your trajectory, if you can cc or not.... Man i can go on.

So ya lets just say how health works in smash is more complex then probably all of mk9. So be happy this is the only game like that
Click to expand...
I generally had no idea, nor do I really care that much. Only played it when I was younger mashing buttons and hoping I'd get one of those hammers to clear people out of the screen. Good times and a great game.
 
Critical-Limit

Critical-Limit

Apprentice
Grumptronix said:
I never said it wasn't a fighter because it didn't have a life-bar.
Click to expand...
lol I don't know what your reasons for questioning it being a fighter are. I just threw one example out that all fighters have that smash doesn't have.

You never mentioned why you questioned it. I just chose 1 random thing that smash has exclusive to itself (well I guess before PLaystation all-stars but even I don't really like that game.)

Anyways The block system in smash alone is the deepest block system by far. And that's just... the block system. What i've told you so far in it's depth. Is about as far as your shins can take you when you walk into the ocean. I haven't shown you the depths of the ocean. Not even close.
 
Grumptronix

Grumptronix

Fuck off, I'm not grumpy
Critical-Limit said:
lol I don't know what your reasons for questioning it being a fighter are. I just threw one example out that all fighters have that smash doesn't have.

You never mentioned why you questioned it. I just chose 1 random thing that smash has exclusive to itself (well I guess before PLaystation all-stars but even I don't really like that game.)

Anyways The block system in smash alone is the deepest block system by far. And that's just... the block system. What i've told you so far in it's depth. Is about as far as your shins can take you when you walk into the ocean. I haven't shown you the depths of the ocean. Not even close.
Click to expand...
I didn't necessarily question it with the underlying idea of it not being a real fighter. I just generally had no idea. haha... I just remember loving blasting people the fuck out of the stage. Oh well, carry on.
 
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