Explain me frames, pls!

[Killzone]

I always hear that frames are one of the most important things in fighting games, yet I don't have a clue what they actually do.
I do understand that the frames determine how fast certain attacks are and that if one attack has less frames than the opponents attack, it should hit first and so on.

But what's up with all these numbers?
What are start-up frames?
What are hit advantage frames?
What are recovery frames?
What are block advantage frames?

Thanks in advance!

 

[NapoleonComplex]

Just imagine that there are 60 frames every second. 60 frames = 1 second. 30 frames = half second

I'm not an expert but startup frames are how fast a move takes to start up. Active frames are how long the moves lasts after you use it. Recovery frames are how long it takes to recover after the move is blocked (I think?)

Some of this stuff might be wrong.

 

[Chongo]

Start up frames- # of frames a move takes before it becomes active. Kung Lao's spin is 6 frames, meaning it takes 6 frames for the spin to actually do something.

Hit advantage- when you hit somebody with a move that is +12 for example, they cannot move until those 12 frames have passed, allowing you to pressure them.

Block advantage- In MK9, Reptiles Elbow Dash is -15 on block, meaning that if you block my elbow dash, I cannot move for 15 frames and open for punishment.

 

[Faded Dreams V]

http://testyourmight.com/threads/general-mk9-frame-data-info.15988/

 

[FrothyOmen]

start up frames: Time between you pressing the button and the first possible frame the move can strike the opponent

active frames: a count of the number of frames where the move can potentially hit somebody (think of Cyrax buzzsaw, after performing the move the saw remains spinning in front of him briefly -- this is indicative of a move with many active frames since it has a bigger "window" in which it can hit an opponent

Hit advantage: when certain moves hit, they cause your opponent to stagger. Hit advantage is determined by, after a move hits, how much sooner Player 1 can move than Player 2 (or vice-versa). Block advantage is the exact same thing, except it's for moves that are blocked instead of moves that hit.

 

[Faded Dreams V]

Side note: Am I the only one who became a worse player overall online in MK9 when I learned frame data? lol.

 

[NapoleonComplex]

I may be a noob, but I really don't see the point in frame data. You can tell what moves are safe and which aren't safe by playing. I don't see how studying numbers can help you mid-match. But I could just be a noob.

 

[FrothyOmen]

I may be a noob, but I really don't see the point in frame data. You can tell what moves are safe and which aren't safe by playing. I don't see how studying numbers can help you mid-match. But I could just be a noob.

Because you can find out that Sub-Zero has a gap between the second and third hits of his 212 string, meaning that you can armor/x-ray out of that string every single time. This makes sub-zero a lot worse of a character and actually changes matchups out of his favor, so there are a LOT of minute things that make it matter.

There's a fine line between using it to create specialized traps/punishes for your opponents, and just playing the fucking game lol. It's not always just about frame data which a lot of people still seem to think it is....

 

[Chongo]

I may be a noob, but I really don't see the point in frame data. You can tell what moves are safe and which aren't safe by playing. I don't see how studying numbers can help you mid-match. But I could just be a noob.

It's actually very helpful.

Take Kung Lao for example. 24 on hit is +4. That means if he follows up with 2 (7 frames) he can only be interrupted by armor. Now if he followed 24 on hit with 1 (10 frames) he can be interrupted by 6 frame moves and armor moves now.

 

[GGA Max]

I may be a noob, but I really don't see the point in frame data. You can tell what moves are safe and which aren't safe by playing. I don't see how studying numbers can help you mid-match. But I could just be a noob.

You might need to know what can be done in certain situations. Imagine being pressured, and feeling like you can never get a poke/hit in. Then you check the frame data and you see yes I can squeeze a d1 in, or no I'm in too much hit/block stun there and I'll have to wait for another opportunity/take my chances jumping out.

 

[NapoleonComplex]

It just seems too specific for me. So do you just learn frame data for every character that's viable?

 

[Chongo]

It just seems too specific for me. So do you just learn frame data for every character that's viable?

You learn frame data on moves that are important. Hell, I don't know what Reptile's 2 3+4 is on block because I never use that sring. But I know that 1221 is -10 and 321 is neutral because those strings are his most used ones.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

In that picture:

The move would take 9 frames to be active. So, it's like Sub's standing 2 which is 9 frames.

That move is +16 on hit. Meaning you have 16 frames to do whatever you want.

That move takes 18 frames to recover from using. (Basically that many frames before you can block or move again)

That move is +1 on block so... you have one frame to do whatever you want. And you would apply it like... if they tried to do a 7 frame move after, as long as you do a 7 frame move or faster they shouldn't be able to hit you b/c of your advantage from the frames.

Or ya know, something like that. I'm not all that up on it myself. lol
I mash D4.

 

[CURBOLICOUS]

Killzone think of startup frames as execution. Startup is how long it takes for a move to come out.

Recovery how long the move takes to recovery and allow you to block. So if you whiff it, you can't do anything for 18 frames which allows for a punish

Hit advantage is how many frames they are stuck in hit stun. So let's say you hit them with X X, they are stuck in 16 frames of hitstun and allows you to pressure. You can take hit advantage or block advantage IF its positive and subtract it from you startup frame of your next follow up move to see what their window is for armoring our/how fast your follow will be for them. So for example let's use this attack. Your at +16 on hit. If you follow up with another X X they have no window to armor out which means its 100% gauranteed. Block stun is the same thing, how much block stun they are in after u do the move. If negative for either block stun or hit stun means your at disadvantage. Depending on how much disadvantage you are at can be determined as safe or unsafe. Let's say your opponent does a move that is -15 on block, you can punish with X X because they have 15 frames of stun and your move is 9 frames fast. Now if they do a move that is -5, they are in 5 frames of stun. Now if you have a move 5 frames or faster you can punish but if we are using X X, you can't punish but you can apply pressure since it is only 9 frames. You can take the positive number from block advantage and subtract from your startup IF its a negative number and see how fast your move comes out. If it comes out as 0 or a negative number then you can consider it a punish. If they are -5 and you do X X then do 9-5, your next X X attacked followed up by their -5 move should be 4 frames fast. So if they don't have a move that is faster then 4 frames then you should be good using X X as a followup. However they have 4 frames to armor out so they can break out of pressure if they use an armored attacked. Like I said if you want to make sure they can't break out after you have advantage, you must do a move = to or less then the advantage you receive. Remember your advabtage is how long they are stuck in hit/block stun. If you do a follow up that is faster than their hitstun, they have no window to armor out. Frame data is really key to every fighting games if you don't understand I can answer any question just tag me if you don't understand anything.

 

[GGA Max]

Killzone think of startup frames as execution. Startup is how long it takes for a move to come out.

Recovery how long the move takes to recovery and allow you to block. So if you whiff it, you can't do anything for 18 frames which allows for a punish

Hit advantage is how many frames they are stuck in hit stun. So let's say you hit them with X X, they are stuck in 16 frames of hitstun and allows you to pressure. You can take hit advantage or block advantage IF its positive and subtract it from you startup frame of your next follow up move to see what their window is for armoring our/how fast your follow will be for them. So for example let's use this attack. Your at +16 on hit. If you follow up with another X X they have no window to armor out which means its 100% gauranteed. Block stun is the same thing, how much block stun they are in after u do the move. If negative for either block stun or hit stun means your at disadvantage. Depending on how much disadvantage you are at can be determined as safe or unsafe. Let's say your opponent does a move that is -15 on block, you can punish with X X because they have 15 frames of stun and your move is 9 frames fast. Now if they do a move that is -5, they are in 5 frames of stun. Now if you have a move 5 frames or faster you can punish but if we are using X X, you can't punish but you can apply pressure since it is only 9 frames. You can take the positive number from block advantage and subtract from your startup IF its a negative number and see how fast your move comes out. If it comes out as 0 or a negative number then you can consider it a punish. If they are -5 and you do X X then do 9-5, your next X X attacked followed up by their -5 move should be 4 frames fast. So if they don't have a move that is faster then 4 frames then you should be good using X X as a followup. However they have 4 frames to armor out so they can break out of pressure if they use an armored attacked. Like I said if you want to make sure they can't break out after you have advantage, you must do a move = to or less then the advantage you receive. Remember your advabtage is how long they are stuck in hit/block stun. If you do a follow up that is faster than their hitstun, they have no window to armor out. Frame data is really key to every fighting games if you don't understand I can answer any question just tag me if you don't understand anything.

This reminds me of green lantern's throw.

 

[Grumptronix]

I may be a noob, but I really don't see the point in frame data. You can tell what moves are safe and which aren't safe by playing. I don't see how studying numbers can help you mid-match. But I could just be a noob.

It helps you mostly with your own character. If you know your general frame data for pokes and strings, it helps with string interupts, pressuring, etc. It's extremely useful. You learn what strings to do when, and the more you learn the game, the more you learn who to do what strings/pokes on.

 

[Faded Dreams V]

I may be a noob, but I really don't see the point in frame data. You can tell what moves are safe and which aren't safe by playing. I don't see how studying numbers can help you mid-match. But I could just be a noob.

Well, if you don't understand frame data, the game becomes trial and error in finding what is punishable and what leaves the opponent at an advantage. For example, take Baraka. If you don't understand frame data, you will likely never realize that his B3 1 is -11 on block, and thus, you can punish it with your fastest jab. Without frame data, you'd likely discover that by accident.

Now take Mileena. If you don't understand frame data, again, you may not know that U4 leaves her at +9 on block, which gives her a free 4 2 because 4 is 14 frames (14 - 9 = 5. No regular move is fast enough to stop her).

So basically, if you're a tournament player, frame data is a super fast and easy way to understand the weaknesses and strengths of every characters' moves instantly. Otherwise, you'll have to play dozens of games to discover one thing you could have known dozens of games prior to discovering it.

 

[Jeddite]

It just seems too specific for me. So do you just learn frame data for every character that's viable?

I only really find it helpful when understanding invisible active and recovery frames

 

[Grumptronix]

Then again, all frame data goes out the window when playing online. So really, it's useless if your not part of some offline scene.

 

[NapoleonComplex]

Now take Mileena. If you don't understand frame data, again, you may not know that U4 leaves her at +9 on block, which gives her a free 4 2 because 4 is 14 frames (14 - 9 = 5. No regular move is fast enough to stop her).

So what you're saying here is after you use U4 with Mileena, you have 9 frames to do something before the opponent. Because 4 is 14 frames, you would need a move that is less than 5 frames to interrupt it?

 

[Grumptronix]

So what you're saying here is after you use U4 with Mileena, you have 9 frames to do something before the opponent. Because 4 is 14 frames, you would need a move that is less than 5 frames to interrupt it?

Exactly.

 

[SCK ERR0R MACR0]

It just seems too specific for me. So do you just learn frame data for every character that's viable?

Not everyone is going to learn all of the important frame data--competitive players will and this is usually why there is quite a large gap between casual players and competitive players.

 

[Faded Dreams V]

So what you're saying here is after you use U4 with Mileena, you have 9 frames to do something before the opponent. Because 4 is 14 frames, you would need a move that is less than 5 frames to interrupt it?

Pretty much. Since U4 leaves you at +9 on block, any normal/string's start-up frame is subtracted by 9 after you connect it. So 4, which is 14 frames, now becomes 5 frames. Unless the opponent has a move/poke that is 5 frames or lower, he has to respect your 4 2 string. If they try jumping out (unless it's a bad connection online), it'll likely still connect, and since 4 2 launches, you can hit confirm into Mileena's telekick for a combo regardless.

 

[Grumptronix]

It just seems too specific for me. So do you just learn frame data for every character that's viable?

An example of this at a high level (although it might not actually be the case, but some think it is): Go see the match between Gross's Sektor and Perfect Legends's Kung Lao on youtube. PL might not have known the frame data for Sektor well enough to punish or interrupt certain strings since it's not a character that is used that often. Gross seemed to know when or when not to interrupt PL during every match.

Anyways, this might not be that good of an example, but I hope you get the idea.

 

[NapoleonComplex]

I know this wasn't my thread, but you guys helped me a lot. Going to look up that match now.