Big and Slow: Tournament Viable?

[PoweredbyProtein]

The larger characters as long as they're given deadly mix-ups or characteristics to let them get in. From my experiences:
Marduk(TT2): I have a friend that plays the character and does well at tournaments and on stream. As I don't play the game, I'll ask him and update when I find out.

Nightmare(SCV) : Viable due to his range, damage, and pressure. Can't say much because I never used him. I rocked Zwei, Alpha Pat, and Viola

Potemkin(GGAC+R): As you can see he is extremely slow, but given the tools he has he is certainly viable. He has:

• A move that turns projectiles into a moving wall, allowing him to slowly proceed behind it undisturbed by potential enemy attacks.
• A fully armored dash attack that can be canceled for pressure or his deadly mix-up game of "will I command grab you, use normals for pressure, do a low or overhead, or use heat knuckle(his anti-air grab) if your bitch ass decides to jump?".
• Speaking of heat knuckle, it beats everything in the air. He also has a super that makes him lunge into the sky and grab you for massive damage for heavy damages, which scares the fuck out of the opponent and keeps them grounded.
• He can confirm his long range pokes to heat knuckle.
• He has an unblockable ground shockwave ... that can be confirmed into a combo from almost halfscreen away due to his armored dash attack cancel.
• A fuckton of resets, grab gimmicks, and tick throws
• Has the most health in the game
• He normals work great as mix-up tools.
• The Man gets meter at a fast rate from moving forward

etc. etc.
Kanji(P4U): Go to 4:53:05. Kanji against the second best character in the game
Officially on the tier list he is "low-tier" but I play the dude, and he is certainly viable. He doesn't really have legit blockstrings (due to being able to bust out with reversals, which I will call DPs for convenience sake) and requires the ability to read enemies well, but he still shines. Kanji is all about tricking the enemy, and baiting DPs, which let you perfom massively damaging Fatal counter(FC) combos that do about 4k and can lead to resets. Once you get the other guy scared the match is cake and you can do this by using his:

• His numerous, extremely grab tick grab set-ups
• Some of his normals have ridiculous range, due to him using his persona attack. They also FC if the opponent is doing something.
• An air move that beats anti-airs and FCs if they try it. Can also be faked out by holding it so that you can land and command grab.
• A lunge from the air the homes in on opponents and has amazing corner carry in combos.
• Can call down lighting from the sky to lock down opponents at certain ranges as you run up to them. The lighting paralyzes on hit, meaning that the enemy can't move for a few seconds.
• His DP coats his entire body in lighting and paralyzes the other player.
• Has a 4k+ command grab for 50 meter in awakening mode
• His command grab leaves the enemy at the perfect distance for lighting bolt
• A great anti-air grab that has the persona lunge into the sky after enemies. The heavy version has the persona wait for a bit before lunging, and an EX version that the persona will lunge when it senses and enemy in the air. Both have great reset capabilty and Kanji can move after he sets the persona.
• His high damaging resets leads in to more resets
• Great unblockable anti-air normal with huge range, but takes a little while to get out

etc. etc.

I was a bit worried about the injustice grapplers, as I don't know if their normals are efficient for tick grabs. We've seen the they have good anti-airs and tools to beat projectiles and get in though. If their grabs are unblockable, and the moves we've seen work like how we imagine them, they'll do just fine.

I'll add more examples from other games later, as I'm not the fastest typer I don't enjoy having to type alot at once.

 

[Deleted member 5032]

What's really got me worried about the bruisers in Injustice is Cyborg. Giving a single character that much mobility alongside such strong zoning is going to make life incredibly difficult for any characters who have to close the gap to get anything started. As always, it's far too early to speculate too heavily, but based on what we've been shown so far, it looks like the pure-brawlers of Injustice are going to have an uphill battle ahead of them.

 

[Juggs]

What's really got me worried about the bruisers in Injustice is Cyborg. Giving a single character that much mobility alongside such strong zoning is going to make life incredibly difficult for any characters who have to close the gap to get anything started. As always, it's far too early to speculate too heavily, but based on what we've been shown so far, it looks like the pure-brawlers of Injustice are going to have an uphill battle ahead of them.

That's how it's supposed to be for grapplers. It's supposed to be hard to get in, but when you get in, you do serious damage. That's why they're so scary, and that's why you have to keep them out.

 

[PoweredbyProtein]

What's really got me worried about the bruisers in Injustice is Cyborg. Giving a single character that much mobility alongside such strong zoning is going to make life incredibly difficult for any characters who have to close the gap to get anything started. As always, it's far too early to speculate too heavily, but based on what we've been shown so far, it looks like the pure-brawlers of Injustice are going to have an uphill battle ahead of them.

We've seen that Doomsday has a shoulder charge that punishes projectiles on reaction, and we know about too little of banes moves, but I believe he'll have something for that.
It looks like Grundy's the one that will have alot of trouble against Cyborg.

 

[smokey]

What tournaments has Astaroth won or placed in? I just watched a youtube video of Lolo's Astaroth getting blown up by Raphael. Zero can ToD any character in UMvC3 and is generally considered the best character in the game, yet you still don't see him winning tournaments. Theory is theory, but tournament results speak a lot louder.

In any case, I'm probably just going to take the 3d fighters out of the original post since they don't really apply to the discussion I'm trying to have. They still exemplify some of my key points, but when you introduce zoning into the equation, it changes everything. Since this thread is meant to focus on Injustice character viability, I should have kept the OP focused on MK, SF, and UMvC3. Unfortunately I'm unfamiliar with other 2d fighters, such as Blazblue and Guilty Gear.

Theres not been any good Astaroth players at any SCV tournaments recently, Lolo is the only example i can think of, Xeph played Astaroth at Evo but then dropped him for Pyrrha and is now coming first at liek every major going, he would be placing if he still played Astaroth.

SCV is NOT like MK where all the top players play all the top tier and counter pick each other because there is a bad matchup. All the top placing players are CHARACTER SPECIALISTS and the better player usually, if not always, wins.

Top 8 at most SCV events since its release have had 6-8 different characters placing. Its down to who travels usually to what characters place in the tournament, not the viability of the character.

Tira is NOT top tier, or even considered that good as a character, but Shining Decapon is absolutely AMAZING, in the EVO grand finals he punished a blocked 2k with CE. Thats like punishing a blocked d1 with Xray on reaction in evo grand finals pressure. Cmon now.

 

[BTK HYENA]

Iron Tager.

 

[badgerfan20945]

Iron Tager, lol.

Swamp Hands (?) for Grundy is like Potemkin's slide head in a way, in that it allows Grundy to close the distance against zoners safely. Oh and credit to powered for mentioning both Kanji and Potemkin (I played both of them). Potemkin is scary in that his hammerfall can be canceled before it hits (hammer break) and after it hits by roman cancelling it. Since we now know that we can use meter to cancel unsafe moves, characters like Grundy can use that to get that extra chance for damage with normals or a grab.

 

[Circus]

The effectiveness of a big and slow projectileless character really depends on one thing in my opinion and that is how good the ability to zone and lame out are in the game.

Games like Tekken it isn't too viable to just run away the whole time so bigger slower characters end up being on the same playing field as mostly everyone else.

In the end though I'm a strong believer that most fighting games end up being a game of matchups. A huge grappler might not be a great idea vs a great zoner, but actually might end up doing better against the best characters in the game. Only a crazily broken character won't have any bad matchups.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

I don't like the big and bulky type characters, so I always stay away from them. So I have no idea.

But it does seem that they have a hard time competing with the Kung Laos of fighting games.

 

[shoshinsha]

We all know that most big, slow characters wind up at or near bottom tier in most fighting games. There are occasional exceptions but, by and large, this is a truism. Has there been any talk of how NRS is keeping this from afflicting characters like Grundy and Doomsday in IGAU? Anything from colt? I sure hope they're consciously addressing this subject before it becomes an issue.

 

[Red Reaper]

We all know that most big, slow characters wind up at or near bottom tier in most fighting games. There are occasional exceptions but, by and large, this is a truism. Has there been any talk of how NRS is keeping this from afflicting characters like Grundy and Doomsday in IGAU? Anything from colt? I sure hope they're consciously addressing this subject before it becomes an issue.

I'm pretty sure they're doing what they kan. They did get many players from different backgrounds according to the interviews.

Plus, we all saw how fast Grundy moved in his Battle Arena Match.

 

[IceNine]

Nope, no talk about specific balance for any character or character archetype as far as I'm aware.

 

[PoweredbyProtein]

We all know that most big, slow characters wind up at or near bottom tier in most fighting games. There are occasional exceptions but, by and large, this is a truism. Has there been any talk of how NRS is keeping this from afflicting characters like Grundy and Doomsday in IGAU? Anything from colt? I sure hope they're consciously addressing this subject before it becomes an issue.

1. That's false
2. We already have a thread for this

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

See, thing is, it's a design flaw to have someone "big and slow". Since being slow overall is one of the biggest disadvantages in a character. For example, look at Kenshi, big ass hitbox yet very fast.

 

[Red Reaper]

1. That's false
2. We already have a thread for this

Agreed. GuamoKun or another Mod should merge this thread with the other..

 

[Red Reaper]

See, thing is, it's a design flaw to have someone "big and slow". Since being slow overall is one of the biggest disadvantages in a character. For example, look at Kenshi, big ass hitbox yet very fast.

You kan have Big and Slow Characters that are good. There's other things you have to konsider like block advantage and damage.

Kabal pre-patch without his standing 2, F4 or his pokes would be pretty slow... But guess what, he would still be good!

Why? Because he had an easy ass block infinite back then...

 

[GuamoKun]

Red Reaper I find it nice that you go to me for mod stuff.yeah so this thread is merged with the existing one

 

[Red Reaper]

Red Reaper I find it nice that you go to me for mod stuff.yeah so this thread is merged with the existing one

Well despite your flaws (such as your love for blue) I know that deep down you know what's truly right. Like your secret love for Red Robin for example...

Even though you don't like to face it, you know what's truly better.. For all of us....