Big and Slow: Tournament Viable?

[Deleted member 5032]

I've been rolling this around my my head for a while now, and finally decided to post a thread to get some community feedback.

In most fighting games, the big, slow, heavy-hitting characters simply aren't viable in high-level play. I believe Zangief is the only one I've ever seen do well in a tournament setting, with the extreme exception of GGA Jeremiah's Sheeva, who even he admits is a garbage character. But when you look at characters like Hulk and Nemesis (UMvC3), Jack and Marduk (Tekken), Rock (Soul Calibur), and Sheeva (duh), they all seem to suffer from the same issues: lack of a decent mix-up game and difficulty dealing with quick pressure and zoning, and these issues put them around mid-tier, tops.

Having watched the available Injustice videos about a million times now, it looks like they might have finally designed heavy-hitters that can be threatening to even high-level players, though it's still difficult to tell. Bane, Grundy, and Doomsday all have similarities, but they seem fully capable of getting in and staying in.

So I just wanted to get some community opinions on "bruiser" viability at high level play; both from past games you've had experience with, and with your opinions on the bruisers of Injustice.

 

[RYX]

Doomsday looks like a fucking monster, period.

Solomon Grundy looks fast enough in terms of dash and I'd say his normals are acceptable too. Unblock able command grabs and POSSIBLY a seven-chain grab combo, I'm assuming he does a lot of damage too.

Sadly Bane is the least revealed character so far; we simply haven't seen anything other than his super, an AA grab and a few strings. I really hope he has more than enough to compete(He does have a low starter and some pretty good reach with his arms so I hope he has the most mix-ups), would be a shame.

 

[Seapeople]

Kenshi is the second heaviest character next to Sheeva and we all know how he turned out.

 

[KIllaByte]

I've noticed this as well-
and I've also noticed that the fastest characters in any fighting game, are almost always top-tier.
Mortal Kombat 9: Kabal, used to be Kung Lao when unpunishable
Smash Bros Melee: Fox
UMK3: Kabal
MKvsDC: The Flash
Marvel Vs Capcom 3: Wolverine
Ultimate MVC3: Zero
PSASBR: (Debatably) Raiden
Super Street Fighter IV AE: Yun.

I don't mind speed in games- I love the presence of both types of characters, contesting against eachother. But I'd like said contesting to be perfectly fair and balanced- something rarely seen at the high level of play, in a large and slow VS Fast and AVG battle.

 

[Crathen]

Jack and Marduk not strong in tekken? Lol no they're at least top 15-20 , Marduk has very strong mixups ( high risk high reward ) huge grab game and oki and huge long ass moves , Jacks basically destroy people keeping them out and they have good throws ( with huge damage ) safe advantage fast lows ( db1) , huge range on their df2 ( launcher ).

You don't need grapplers to be high tier , you need the characters ( hence matchups and tiers ) to be closer to each other toolwise.

 

[Glass Sword]

These characters all share one glaring weakness they can't get in. For example in Blaze Blue a lot of people time out Tager players since Tager can't get in.
It seems these characters are really good or really bad no in between. Also I would reserve judgement on who is slow in Injustice till we frames.
The only thing we can speak of somewhat is walk speed and yeah the three big guys do move slowly (at least they are not Makoto from sf4). Doomsday does seem to have a god like dash though so who knows. He could be big and fast.
Grundy is most likely to fit into the big and slow role the best.

 

[KingHippo]

Typically, grapplers are strong early in a game's life, since they usually punish easy mistakes with big damage via their their high damaging throws. As a game tends to evolve, it becomes easier to take advantage of their common flaws (Slow walkspeed, slow moves, etc.) and they may fall to the wayside.

Now there are always exceptions; see T. Hawk in SF2 Super Turbo, Zangief in HD Remix and Astaroth in Soul Calibur V. However, these chars have extremely strong tools beyond their grabs, such as strong normals or endless mixups. Really, it all boils down to the dimension of the character. If a character is made to rely only on the grabs and wasn't given ANYTHING to compensate for the flaws most 'big' characters tend to have (See T.Hawk in SFIV, Sheeva in MK9), then yeah, they might end up sucking.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Astaroth in SCV rapes cake.

But unless there's a 2 x NDC block inf in Injustice I don't see Big characters having any problem.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I've noticed this as well-
and I've also noticed that the fastest characters in any fighting game, are almost always top-tier.

Yeah, effectiveness in MK9 has a lot to do with the speed of normals. It doesn't matter how much damage you do; if your opponent can always get started before you get started and interrupt you, it's hard for you to mount an offense.

The traditional counter to this in MK9 has been armor; but the problem is that a big heavy-hitting armored character with a sizable reach quickly becomes classified as 'cheap', and NRS seems to have been making an effort to make sure that 'cheap' characters (like Sheeva) are limited in other ways so that they don't take over and terrorize online/casual play.

So the question seems to be, how do you make that kind of character viable without having them become excessively dominating to the casual player?

EDIT: Really that type of logic applies to other types characters as well. For example, if you gave Sindel or Noob a decent set of tools to go with their zoning styles, they would absolutely destroy most casual players. But they'd be more balanced in high-level play. It's just tough to balance a game for everyone, unless the tools and character styles are more similar (Tekken).

 

[KingHippo]

The traditional counter to this in MK9 has been armor; but the problem is that a big heavy-hitting armored character with a sizable reach quickly becomes classified as 'cheap', and NRS seems to have been making an effort to make sure that 'cheap' characters (like Sheeva) are limited in other ways so that they don't take over and terrorize online/casual play.

See this tends to be a big problem when companies try to 'balance' these characters. Sometimes letting cheap roll is the best way to make a character viable; Astaroth in Soul Calibur V could easily have his bull rush nerfed to not crush highs, or be advantageous on block with a little bit of charge, but Namco (In a rare moment of clarity, perhaps) probably gets that the natural counters to the archetype would prevent him from being truly broken.

I won't retread the age old argument of "Don't listen to scrubs", but sometimes that kind of thing can get in the way of making every character in the cast scary (Which any good fighting game should do).

No company is making a game solely for high level players (Maybe Sega) but I would argue that if the goal is to make a game that will last a long time, having characters with scary scary options (This does not mean balance) can add to that, certainly.

 

[shaowebb]

Im not gonna lie that Big and Slow is a thing that is scary to play. Its high risk high reward punish nature is its big appeal honestly. Its built for patient players who prefer to play based on their opponent's tendencies in a punish fashion. Guys like Mike Ross specialize in this mentality of play.

Honestly though you have to remember HUGO was a beast in SF x Tekken so its not unheard of that a big dude may be a top contender. It'll all depend upon their player's patience and just how well they can inch forward or AA. Hulk didn't really have trouble getting in BTW. His dashes were projectile proof and ridiculously good, but the problem was he was scoutable and you could bait out his armored moves like that and his standing H very easily because they were obviously his ONLY options to beat faster guys. Very few could utilize his command grab due to its range not being that special and its recovery...plus his main damage required wallbounce combos which are a bit iffy on some size characters.

Anyhow, this game has some good potential in Doomsday and Grundy in my eyes. Grundy has the dash now and his swamp hands is the PERFECT tool for a character like him. It'll take patience but he could work. Doomsday has some good punish stuff himself with the elbow and shoulders and his ability to air redirect into a footdive for meter. Bane is the oddball out given we just haven't seen enough, but his shoulder dash may have a meter burn variant thats armored, and his jumping dropkick looks like a crossup factory. If it can out priority it will be scary to AA.

Just chucking out possibilities though...Bane could be ass on his tools, Grundy might be more scoutable than Hulk, and Doomsday may be a guy who can only really elbow in and who finds it punishable.

 

[Zoidberg747]

I've been rolling this around my my head for a while now, and finally decided to post a thread to get some community feedback.

In most fighting games, the big, slow, heavy-hitting characters simply aren't viable in high-level play. I believe Zangief is the only one I've ever seen do well in a tournament setting, with the extreme exception of GGA Jeremiah's Sheeva, who even he admits is a garbage character. But when you look at characters like Hulk and Nemesis (UMvC3), Jack and Marduk (Tekken), Rock (Soul Calibur), and Sheeva (duh), they all seem to suffer from the same issues: lack of a decent mix-up game and difficulty dealing with quick pressure and zoning, and these issues put them around mid-tier, tops.

Having watched the available Injustice videos about a million times now, it looks like they might have finally designed heavy-hitters that can be threatening to even high-level players, though it's still difficult to tell. Bane, Grundy, and Doomsday all have similarities, but they seem fully capable of getting in and staying in.

So I just wanted to get some community opinions on "bruiser" viability at high level play; both from past games you've had experience with, and with your opinions on the bruisers of Injustice.

You say Rock yet you don't mention Astaroth.

#flawedlogic

 

[KingHippo]

To be fair, Rock was better in SC2.

 

[Deleted member 5032]

You say Rock yet you don't mention Astaroth.

#flawedlogic

I couldn't remember if Astaroth was viable in V since I haven't played it much, and it really wasn't worth looking into. Those are just some examples of my main point, and not meant to be an all-inclusive list.

Jack and Marduk not strong in tekken? Lol no they're at least top 15-20 , Marduk has very strong mixups ( high risk high reward ) huge grab game and oki and huge long ass moves , Jacks basically destroy people keeping them out and they have good throws ( with huge damage ) safe advantage fast lows ( db1) , huge range on their df2 ( launcher ).

You don't need grapplers to be high tier , you need the characters ( hence matchups and tiers ) to be closer to each other toolwise.

Tag 2 is another game I haven't played a lot of, but I have looked at the tier lists of the top Japanese players, and you never see the "bruiser" characters being listed higher than B+ tier. I'm sure Jack and Marduk have incredible tools, the same same as any other characters, but those tools don't mean anything if your opponent doesn't have to let you use them.

And of course there are always going to be exceptions to the rule, but unfortunately the norm is for bruisers to cap out around mid to high-mid.

 

[Deleted member 5032]

Kenshi is the second heaviest character next to Sheeva and we all know how he turned out.

I wouldn't consider Kenshi a "bruiser" character, since he has no need to get in. I'm referring to the sluggish yet high-damage characters that like to bully their opponents from as close as possible. I know that seems like a pretty specific character type, but we already have 3 in Injustice and we don't even have the entire roster. I imagine Ares would fit that archetype as well, should he be revealed (though he could end up being a bit speedier, like Nightmare from Soul Calibur).

As a few of you have mentioned, I agree that it's a difficult balancing issue. If a character has long limbs that lead to massive damage, then they need to have some sort of drawback to keep balanced. However, those characteristics are very often outclassed by speed. After all, what good is a 75% kombo if I stand no chance of landing that first hit. A good mix-up game can help, but even Quan Chi, with his incredible mix-up game, suffers immensely due to being just a bit too slow.

I'm not saying these characters aren't useable, or that they're not fun to play, just that you won't be seeing them winning any majors anytime soon, and I'm hoping Injustice has somehow figured out how to make this character type viable at high-level play.

 

[Zoidberg747]

I couldn't remember if Astaroth was viable in V since I haven't played it much, and it really wasn't worth looking into. Those are just some examples of my main point, and not meant to be an all-inclusive list.


Tag 2 is another game I haven't played a lot of, but I have looked at the tier lists of the top Japanese players, and you never see the "bruiser" characters being listed higher than B+ tier. I'm sure Jack and Marduk have incredible tools, the same same as any other characters, but those tools don't mean anything if your opponent doesn't have to let you use them.

And of course there are always going to be exceptions to the rule, but unfortunately the norm is for bruisers to cap out around mid to high-mid.

But Astaroth directly counters your point lol.

Also it doesnt matter where Jack 6 is on the tier list because Anakin has always dominated with him.

 

[smokey]

All grappler/tank characters that you mentioned aren't bad at all. Being slow and having to fight for your ground is NOT a disadvantage when you take in to account all of the power and mind games you apply just by being in the range your moves will hit, you dont have to condition people beforehand. If you are in grab range and your playing as Zangief/Astaroth/Marduk, shit just got serious for your opponent. (Jack plays keep out more than stay-in)

 

[Deleted member 5032]

But Astaroth directly counters your point lol.

Also it doesnt matter where Jack 6 is on the tier list because Anakin has always dominated with him.

I've already said there are a few exceptions, and that includes mentioning a single player who has brought out the best in a low/mid tier character (Jeremiah, Anakin).

For the sake of argument, I went ahead and looked up a bunch of SCV tier lists, and the highest I can find Astaroth is B tier. Can you name a single tournament where an Astaroth placed top 8? I'm not trying to say one doesn't exist; I am genuinely curious if such a thing has happened, because I'd like to see the footage. I know it was a Tira player who won Evo 2012 against a Cervantes player. I can't remember if there was an Astaroth in top 8 (or even top 16).

In any case, naming a single character who may or may not be tournament viable doesn't change the fact that any average fan of fighting games can name upwards of 10 similar characters who will never place in a tournament top 8. However, the point of this thread is to discuss such topics. If Astaroth did get top 8 at a major, what is it that sets him apart from similar yet less effective characters? If Anakin is cleaning up tournaments with Jack 6, what's he doing to make that playstyle so effective?

It also seems like we should be differentiating between 2d and 3d games, and zoning vs non-zoning games. A heavy character like Marduk will have more luck in a game like Tekken where he can't be zoned out. If there wasn't zoning in UMvC3, I'm sure Hulk would be a much more viable character, even with his limited mix-up game. The same goes for Astaroth in Soul Calibur, though to a somewhat lesser extent, considering the length of his hitboxes.

When it comes to Injustice, it's a bit early to speculate, but I'll be very interested to see how characters like Grundy, Bane, and Doomsday deal with something like Cyborg's insane zoning/keepaway game.

 

[Deleted member 5032]

All grappler/tank characters that you mentioned aren't bad at all. Being slow and having to fight for your ground is NOT a disadvantage when you take in to account all of the power and mind games you apply just by being in the range your moves will hit, you dont have to condition people beforehand. If you are in grab range and your playing as Zangief/Astaroth/Marduk, shit just got serious for your opponent. (Jack plays keep out more than stay-in)

I'm not saying these characters are bad, just that they're not effective at high-level play. One of the top UMvC3 ranked players on Xbox Live is a Hulk player. In a casual/online setting these characters can be very effective. But in an offline tournament setting, they don't seem to show up nearly as often, and when they do, they always seem to get shut down pretty hard.

 

[smokey]

Snip

LOLO at MLG was probably the best Asta you can find atm, but Xeph (number 1 player atm) used to play a lot of Asta in tournament, Saitoh from france is probably one of the best SC4 and SCV players and he mains astaroth.

Asta struggles in a couple of key matchups, but has the advantage of being able to do stupid amounts of damage and apply 50/50's for over half life every time you get near him or are - on block.

Temjiin Asta bottom 1.

 

[Juggs]

Big and slow has never worked for me personally. I just can't do it. It really frustrates me when I can't move freely. It ultimately comes down to mobility for me. I love mobile characters who are quick and can just go crazy on you. Which is why I'm really loving Catwoman's gameplay.

Anyway, big and slow can work, there's plenty of examples of it being successful, mainly Gief in SF. But it just seems like they're more of scrub killers than high level player killers. And I personally cannot use them.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Large characters have a MUCH rougher time in a 2D setting.

Developers always try to offset speed with power and range. Problem there is that ... typically that becomes retarded with combo's .... so they give them normal combo damage and HUGE throw damage.
And they always make them so unsafe. Just make the big dudes have good safe normals sometimes .

I dont' really think you can bring Tekken into the conversation... considering at any level.... everyone has SOMETHING to counter someone else.

 

[Zoidberg747]

I've already said there are a few exceptions, and that includes mentioning a single player who has brought out the best in a low/mid tier character (Jeremiah, Anakin).

For the sake of argument, I went ahead and looked up a bunch of SCV tier lists, and the highest I can find Astaroth is B tier. Can you name a single tournament where an Astaroth placed top 8? I'm not trying to say one doesn't exist; I am genuinely curious if such a thing has happened, because I'd like to see the footage. I know it was a Tira player who won Evo 2012 against a Cervantes player. I can't remember if there was an Astaroth in top 8 (or even top 16).

In any case, naming a single character who may or may not be tournament viable doesn't change the fact that any average fan of fighting games can name upwards of 10 similar characters who will never place in a tournament top 8. However, the point of this thread is to discuss such topics. If Astaroth did get top 8 at a major, what is it that sets him apart from similar yet less effective characters? If Anakin is cleaning up tournaments with Jack 6, what's he doing to make that playstyle so effective?

It also seems like we should be differentiating between 2d and 3d games, and zoning vs non-zoning games. A heavy character like Marduk will have more luck in a game like Tekken where he can't be zoned out. If there wasn't zoning in UMvC3, I'm sure Hulk would be a much more viable character, even with his limited mix-up game. The same goes for Astaroth in Soul Calibur, though to a somewhat lesser extent, considering the length of his hitboxes.

When it comes to Injustice, it's a bit early to speculate, but I'll be very interested to see how characters like Grundy, Bane, and Doomsday deal with something like Cyborg's insane zoning/keepaway game.

There was one top 8 at EVO.

The key to making grapplers viable is to give them mixups and good pressure along with damage. Considering ALL of the bruisers in this game so far have fast dashes that cover half the screen, I am not really sweating the zoners.

 

[Deleted member 5032]

LOLO at MLG was probably the best Asta you can find atm, but Xeph (number 1 player atm) used to play a lot of Asta in tournament, Saitoh from france is probably one of the best SC4 and SCV players and he mains astaroth.

Asta struggles in a couple of key matchups, but has the advantage of being able to do stupid amounts of damage and apply 50/50's for over half life every time you get near him or are - on block.

What tournaments has Astaroth won or placed in? I just watched a youtube video of Lolo's Astaroth getting blown up by Raphael. Zero can ToD any character in UMvC3 and is generally considered the best character in the game, yet you still don't see him winning tournaments. Theory is theory, but tournament results speak a lot louder.

In any case, I'm probably just going to take the 3d fighters out of the original post since they don't really apply to the discussion I'm trying to have. They still exemplify some of my key points, but when you introduce zoning into the equation, it changes everything. Since this thread is meant to focus on Injustice character viability, I should have kept the OP focused on MK, SF, and UMvC3. Unfortunately I'm unfamiliar with other 2d fighters, such as Blazblue and Guilty Gear.

 

[Zoidberg747]

What tournaments has Astaroth won or placed in? I just watched a youtube video of Lolo's Astaroth getting blown up by Raphael. Zero can ToD any character in UMvC3 and is generally considered the best character in the game, yet you still don't see him winning tournaments. Theory is theory, but tournament results speak a lot louder.

In any case, I'm probably just going to take the 3d fighters out of the original post since they don't really apply to the discussion I'm trying to have. They still exemplify some of my key points, but when you introduce zoning into the equation, it changes everything. Since this thread is meant to focus on Injustice character viability, I should have kept the OP focused on MK, SF, and UMvC3. Unfortunately I'm unfamiliar with other 2d fighters, such as Blazblue and Guilty Gear.

Xeph got top 4 at EVO IIRC