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Fighter Stance - it affects gameplay. Lets come up with a list.

rikana

Noob
So I realized something; fighter stance does indeed affect gameplay. I remember watching the Machinima live stream and even the employees who created MK9 said that Fighter Stance was just an aesthetic thing they left in the game. Well, its a lie whether or not they know it.

Let's come up with a list that is affected by fighter stance.

Johnny Cage:
subzerosmokerai said:
Jump Punch, f+:bk, :bp:fp:f+:bp, dash, :bk:bk, :ex Flip Kick

Same stance: does 40% damage
Opposite stance: 38% damage

Update:
For that same Johnny Cage combo, I discovered that if both characters have their backs toward the screen, the combo is 39%. So It is only 40% if both characters have their chests pointed toward the screen.
Kung Lao:
rikana said:
24 Spin (df 1): Spin will NOT work if you're the opposite stance of your opponent when you're in FRONT of him. Spin will not work you're using the SAME stance as the opponent when you're BEHIND him.
Scorpion
Check said:
Scorpions jumpkick teleport stuff in the demo was also different. if you were facing opposite stance as opponent you had to dash in a little bit after the first teleport
Sheeva:
page said:
she has at least 2 combos (pretty much her 2 most damaging mid-screen combos) that are stance dependant as well. Her b2, 1+2, bf3 and her db3, b2, 1+2, bf3 both need her opponent in the opposite stance from her to work (unless she's behind them, then it's reversed, or it's a Sheeva mirror match).

Although Sheeva mirrors aren't affected by her stance specific combos, Kung Lao mirrors are affected. So, it's not even consistently inconsistent.
Raiden
Check said:
raiden 344~promove db1 to the list. It connects closer to the wall when youre facing back to cam and opponent chest to cam.

damage readout on raidens xray combos are also off. they register as 49% but do 52%
 

rikana

Noob
Sorry, but what am I doing wrong? 2 = bp and 4 = bk right? So inputs are: bp, bk, df fp. And, it will only work if Kung Lao's rear is facing the screen.
 

Lucky Day

Kombatant
No, I mean that can't be right.

You're implying that the spin won't hit anything at all if you're in the wrong stance?
 

rikana

Noob
Yep. You can confirm it yourself. :p I tested it over and over again in training mode.. unless its a mode specific th ing I don't know about. :S

I meant specifically for the combo bp bk spin though. Combos like fp to spin work regardless of stance.

Edit: actually.. I should probably do some more testing to make sure.. I just did some on corner and it works. But only in corner so far..

Edit2: Actually it works from time to time.. I have no idea now.. someone confirm that its not just me messing up please.
 

rikana

Noob
I have figured it out.

Kung Lao's bp, bk, df fp. Spin will NOT work if you're the opposite stance of your opponent when you're in FRONT of him. Spin will not work you're using the SAME stance as the opponent when you're BEHIND him.
 

Montanx

Thats why they call this thing bloodsport, kid.
This sounded crazy but I just confirmed this as well. 24 spin hit easily every time while in same facing stance and whiffed while in back to camera stance. I got it to hit a few times if done super quick but it wasnt nearly as clean as when facing. Strange.
 

rikana

Noob
@Montanx: I figured that its depending on your opponent's stance. The screen has nothing to do with it anymore.
 

Zebster

How's my volume?
hm, this reminds me of something someone on SRK said when the demo came out and people were trying to figure out what switch stance did. They were saying it might be like Virtua Fighter (I think was the game) where switch stance could affect combos in some way. Turns out they were right. Huh. Doesn't seem to affect any Smoke combos.
 
hm, this reminds me of something someone on SRK said when the demo came out and people were trying to figure out what switch stance did. They were saying it might be like Virtua Fighter (I think was the game) where switch stance could affect combos in some way. Turns out they were right. Huh. Doesn't seem to affect any Smoke combos.
That was me, my name on that forum is Slide.

But yeah, in VF basically footstance can determine how combos worked because it's based on hitboxes, some characters would have a different combo entirely based on footstance in reference to their opponent. Some combos even having significant difference in damage. Also footstance could determine secret whiffing of moves, even some unguardables!

Based on the idea of hitboxes, footstance in MK could have some interesting results with whiffing of moves too, but who knows.

EDIT: I was hoping, and still am, that it will make a significant difference for MK. Even if it's patched in an update. Open and closed footstance, is a great feature to a fighting game, and it helps remove autopilot.
 

DanCock

Cock Master!!
i dont see anything wrong with that.. kung needs a slight down grade lol if you know your going to do that combo just CS first its not hard.
 
That was me, my name on that forum is Slide.

But yeah, in VF basically footstance can determine how combos worked because it's based on hitboxes, some characters would have a different combo entirely based on footstance in reference to their opponent. Some combos even having significant difference in damage. Also footstance could determine secret whiffing of moves, even some unguardables!

Based on the idea of hitboxes, footstance in MK could have some interesting results with whiffing of moves too, but who knows.

EDIT: I was hoping, and still am, that it will make a significant difference for MK. Even if it's patched in an update. Open and closed footstance, is a great feature to a fighting game, and it helps remove autopilot.
Slide? The other R.Mika player? heh, cool.

I was wondering if stance changes did anything in the game since day 1 myself and I've been trying to research if they do, but my thinking led me too to consider that hitboxes had something to do with it. After some research tonight, I believe I have found some useful information, but one that was inconclusive about stance changes. Nevertheless what I found was pretty interesting. Unfortunately I can't capture video and upload it, but I'll try to describe what it was.

I went into training mode with Jade and found some interesting things. Jade's neutral 4 (or bk as we call it here) moves her forward, so I though, I could just hit 4 and see how many whiffs it would take to hit my opponent (in this case Sektor) and then change stances and try it again and see if it was different. Well, it was. But then after doing it again and again, I found that how many 4's it took to hit Sektor was different everytime no matter what stance she was in. In other words, even in the same stance, the results were different on repeated attempts. What this led me to believe is that the character's neutral "swaying" actually can cause a whiff when no directions are being pressed, because their hitboxes are moving, just a tiny bit. What I'm not sure of, is whether it's the hitboxes of the one getting hit, or the one doing the hitting that matter, or both, but below I'll actually describe what I did so you can see how I came to this conclusion.

Straight out the gate it takes 3 bk's to connect. But after that the pushback and recovery makes it take either 4 or 5 more before you hit Sektor again. The thing is, it's not predictable whether it will take 4 or 5. For the record, going into training mode without hitting a direction, you can hit Sektor 11 times before he's in the corner, and will just get hit every time.

So the first time I did it this is what it looked like (wit the number being the hit that actually landed):

3,5,4,5,5,4,5,4,5,5,4,corner.

The second time, in the same stance (default stance,) this is what it looked like:

3,4,5,5,4,5,4,5,4,5,4,corner.

I needed to figure this out so I got an idea, I hooked up my SF4:TE stick and turned turbo on on the "4" button, this way I could just hold the button down and the move would come out as fast as possible, lo and behold, doing this yielded the same results every time. That pattern was as follows:

3,5,4,5,4,5,5,4,5,4,4,corner.

Then I switched stances and tried it...got different results, but it wasn't uniform different results, it was just different every time. So the conclusion that I came to was that it wasn't the stance that was causing it, it was the point in the animation that my character was in when I started the attack, or the point in my opponents animation when they got hit, and since when you hit select to restart the match, you start in the same stance, I had to hit stance change which could, ever so slightly, throw off the timing, so that even on turbo, I got different results, because I started holding down the button during a different frame.

My logic behind this is that it stands to reason that pushback on hit (or block for that matter) would be the same every time right? If I hit someone with a certain move, and it connects, they should always get pushed back the same distance (unless they're in the corner.) Well something in Mortal Kombat makes this not true. But it looks like stances aren't it. Though it's not out of the question that they could potentially affect this if they reset the neutral "swaying" animation.

I did find something else though, that's very very interesting and could affect this.

Another one of Jade's normals that moves her forward is 2 or bp. I saw this move and thought, well she leans forward a little bit I wonder if it moves her forward, and it does, but it's very, very slight. It takes like 30 or so from the start of training mode to hit your opponent UNLESS you mash it. No combo Jade has starts with 2,2 so I was just mashing the button rather than wait for the move to recover, guess what, she scoots forward MUCH quicker, it's easily visibly noticeable, and turning on turbo for this button has the same effect. I'm not sure if this was already known, if it was forgive me, but those are two interesting mechanics that I'm not entirely sure are intentional that I've figured out so far. Unfortunatley, none of them point to stance changes, but they both could potentially affect gameplay. So I hope this is helpful.

EDIT: Ok, so more research that backs this up, on second thought it seems like it's a no brainer, but the characters neutral animations do actually make a difference in their hitboxes. I just went into practice mode with Sheeva against Jax and stood where her 2 looked like it wouldn't hit him, but at a point in his animation where he leans forward it does. As far as I can tell her 2 has no pushback on hit and doesn't move her forward...unless again you mash it. It's like kara-cancelling a normal into the same normal, it's weird. I actually think being able to do this was probably intentional, and increases the frames of the attack, kind of like how hitting 1 or 2 in tekken and f 1 and f 2 are the same attack, but the forward versions have longer range and are slower.

So you might say, well, if a character is moving, or blocking, then they'll never be in a "neutral" stance long enough to "lean" forward and get hit by something that would usually whiff. Well, you'd be right, but what this does mean is that there's a few things in training mode that are deceptive, because you might find something that you think is a good setup for a combo at a certain range, that only worked because you hit your non-moving opponent in a particularly "forward" point in his movement where an opponent who moves might not get hit by it, but this is uber situational.

In the Kung Lao example above, it is stance dependent, but also hitbox placement dependent. The low 4 kicks the opponent's leg either into the foreground, or the background, and it's only hittable in one of those states. Also, just natively doing 2,4 Kung Lao changes stances on hit, or whiff. So it is sort of stance related, but only because of the properties of the opponent getting hit. In other words, this is a 3D game without the ability to move in the 3rd dimension, and as such it doesn't have standard "2D" hitboxes. The characters are literally hittable where their character model is, but this is one of the only examples anyone's found thus far of a hit not resulting in the exact same animation every time it strikes the opponent.
 

DrDogg

Kombatant
EDIT: I was hoping, and still am, that it will make a significant difference for MK. Even if it's patched in an update. Open and closed footstance, is a great feature to a fighting game, and it helps remove autopilot.
No, no, no, no, no. I really enjoy VF, but that's the one thing I wish Sega would remove. VF is technical enough without making me pay attention to my stance and my opponent's stance. I feel that's just an unecessary difficulty, and I hope it doesn't turn out to have a major impact on MK.
 
Really? I thought it was me, the guy who wrote that shitty guide for the demo.

http://shoryuken.com/content/mortal-kombat-9-demo-general-guide-street-fighter-players-3959/

Apparentely it was you.
For not mentioning you, I apologize.

With that said, in a response to that very article, I elaborated, and in VF it's not just for juggles(which was all you said iirc), which is what I pointed out that it's much more than just for juggles. Foot stance can be a determiner of the whole dynamic of a match. For example, with Jacky in VF5 ver C. in open stance, against majority of the cast if the opponent guards Jacky's 6P he can backdash to avoid an opponents immediate 2P(which is an excellent response to shutdown all of Jacky's followups to 6P) and can 6P again causing a crouch stagger to the opponent's whiffed 2P. In closed stance Jacky can also do K+G 2K+G, and if the opponent guards the initial K+G the followup 2K+G is unguardable at pointblank range.

In VF4evo Jacky's PK attack had completely different hitting properties and recovery depending on foot stance.

And that's just a couple of minor things that footstance can do in that game besides just juggles, dude.

But other than that, I do apologize for not mentioning the article, seriously my bad.
 
Slide? The other R.Mika player? heh, cool.
Yeah that's me, Guy/Charlie/Mika. I still got much love to A3 which I'd still consider the only SF game I really enjoyed.

No, no, no, no, no. I really enjoy VF, but that's the one thing I wish Sega would remove. VF is technical enough without making me pay attention to my stance and my opponent's stance. I feel that's just an unecessary difficulty, and I hope it doesn't turn out to have a major impact on MK.
I'm actually kind of mad that footstance isn't relevant as it was in other versions of the game. I think it should always remain, it's pretty easy to follow. It wasn't difficult once you understand more of the dynamic of the game, the more you know VF it starts to appear in an easily digestible speed. I think footstance for a lot of the things VF implemented it for would've been great for MK. I think game's that give players more things to pay attention to, the better. It was also a part of the whole hitchecking process.
 

Ribx

Noob
Here, I made a video about the situation.

I gave you credit of course.

Gotta love how Seb just copied your video, posted it on (Seb's Lab Notes... "lol"), gave credit to no one, and just posted a link to the Testyourmight.com site below frameadvantage.com's.

That shit saddens me to no end.

EDIT: He actually changed the name of the video. It's not "Seb's Lab Notes" anymore. Still shows as such on my internet history though :D And I got some major flaming from all the narutards for pointing out his bad character in not giving credit. Oh well. Pretentious douchebaggery will triumph.
 

evansgambit

Guardian of Outworld
I wonder if they could patch flip stance/ change stance, so that it would act like an ingame parry similar but not as abusable to SF3.

Kind of like an intermediate between getting hit and block. You take full damage from the intial hit but your block stun is cut in half, allowing you to prempt the intial hits of a combos.

Or maybe flip stance the last hit of a combo to allow you to counter quicker or reduce push back. They need to make it somewhat limited to non special moves.


That would be hell cool and deep.
 

DrDogg

Kombatant
I wonder if they could patch flip stance/ change stance, so that it would act like an ingame parry similar but not as abusable to SF3.

Kind of like an intermediate between getting hit and block. You take full damage from the intial hit but your block stun is cut in half, allowing you to prempt the intial hits of a combos.

Or maybe flip stance the last hit of a combo to allow you to counter quicker or reduce push back. They need to make it somewhat limited to non special moves.


That would be hell cool and deep.
That would completely change the way the game is played. Something like that needs to be added early on in the development cycle so it can be properly balanced. Save it for MK10.