TYM Through the Eyes of a Jobber

[KingHippo]

Now that everyone has calmed down a bit, I’d like for everyone to applaud themselves. You all deserve it too, because you guys have done something that I never thought would be possible; in a stunningly short amount of time, the MK community has turned into a parody of a fighting game community.

The oldest tradition in any competitive arena, trash talk, has now been chased out in favor of being contrite and humble even in the most extraordinary of circumstances. “Props” need to be given for the most pedestrian of accomplishments, and players are upset they play the people they play online in tournament. What could have happened to get to this position?

Winterbrawl, which happened this past weekend, was an exciting event with numerous surprises, and certain players who have never felt the glory got it for the first time. All great things…but now it’s being construed as “The Old Guard” falling for the new guard?


The 2 time Evolution Champion makes a post attempting to air out his frustration at those who previously lashed out at him, and he’s derided for it being “too soon”. He is later referred to as a good player who “Won a couple tournaments”. Where does this kind of stunning lack of awareness originate?

The reason I’m only asking questions is, for once, I have no answer. All the good things that are healthy for a community of competitive gamers are countered or even overridden by increasingly large setbacks. Everyone likes to talk about “growth” and “maturing” the community, and yet the very things that do that are passed over in favor of a fake “unity” that will only last as long as people are willing to accept that façade, which, by my estimate, is about a month and a half.
This of course, isn’t to say there isn’t a chance to improve; that’s always there. But as long as this erroneous “Us vs. Them” mentality exists between what are deemed to be “Pros” (A horridly inaccurate term) and “Players”, then a stunning amount of ignorance and poor logic will continue to supersede any actual goodwill the community produces, which is a lot, if you’re willing to look through the cracks.

I already know the responses I’ll get: Who do you think you are, why is this a topic, close this thread immediately, amusing GIFS and maybe a like or two from people seeking “Real talk”. I don’t care; I just hope someone else is realizing the same thing I am.

 

[TakeAChance]

I think the objective of most of the "Unity" people are to break down the walls of the "Us" vs "Them" phenominon. Trash talk is fine, but at this stage of the game we are tansitioning into a new scene, where new people will be joining us. It is not the time to chastise creativity or show them that we are a bunch of whiny prop hunting bitches.

It should be a time of celebration for the MK community. 3rd evo, new NRS game, MK10 most likely next after Injustice, and instead we are too caught up in convuluted garbage such as "This guy isn't giving me my props".

It's an interesting time on these boards. In a way, we are all scrambling, but we all could simply start building. The trend has started and I think the right steps are in place, it will just depend on whether or not people view it as a "facade" or whether everyone buys in for the betterment of the community.

It's hard not to argue that trash talking belongs in a competitive community. It most certainly does, but not when it doesn't stem from a legitimate cause.

 

[Vagrant]

It's all about moderation.

Even moderation.

Think about it.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I think the objective of most of the "Unity" people are to break down the walls of the "Us" vs "Them" phenominon. Trash talk is fine, but at this stage of the game we are tansitioning into a new scene, where new people will be joining us. It is not the time to chastise creativity or show them that we are a bunch of whiny prop hunting bitches.

It should be a time of celebration for the MK community. 3rd evo, new NRS game, MK10 most likely next after Injustice, and instead we are too caught up in convuluted garbage such as "This guy isn't giving me my props".

It's an interesting time on these boards. In a way, we are all scrambling, but we all could simply start building. The trend has started and I think the right steps are in place, it will just depend on whether or not people view it as a "facade" or whether everyone buys in for the betterment of the community.

It's hard not to argue that trash talking belongs in a competitive community. It most certainly does, but not when it doesn't stem from a legitimate cause.

Screw unity

bring on the salt.

We can all celebrate the game....... but i'm not going to hide the fact that I may not like a particular player. They may dole out great tech that I'll use and what not.... but if they're a douche.... they're a douche. I don't have to unite with them at all.

It isn't a fine line at all in that regard. Keep personal stuff out of it..... take shots at game play....... profit. Somewhere everyone lost site of the personal aspect. taking pot shots at ways of life.... and such. That has no business here. "You can't beat me in MK9" doesn't mean "[insert name] sucks at life and should probably just give up entirely because i'll never respect him as a person or a human being"

That is what teenage girls do. Join cliques and talk about each other .

 

[TakeAChance]

Screw unity

bring on the salt.

We can all celebrate the game....... but i'm not going to hide the fact that I may not like a particular player. They may dole out great tech that I'll use and what not.... but if they're a douche.... they're a douche. I don't have to unite with them at all.

It isn't a fine line at all in that regard. Keep personal stuff out of it..... take shots at game play....... profit. Somewhere everyone lost site of the personal aspect. taking pot shots at ways of life.... and such. That has no business here. "You can't beat me in MK9" doesn't mean "[insert name] sucks at life and should probably just give up entirely because i'll never respect him as a person or a human being"

That is what teenage girls do. Join cliques and talk about each other .

I cannot agree with this more, and I believe that we are arguing similar stances.

The "fine line" that I am talking about is this: If you think someone is a douche, then you think they are a douche. We have to stop calling people out personally because "we think they are a douche" and instead, we have to call people out more because "We think they PLAY like a douche".


The former is personal, the latter is gameplay which is absolutely fine in my personal opinion.

 

[Killphil]

I'm really glad you're taking posts made by a number of people I could probably count on one hand and having them be the definitive "community voice" for everyone.

 

[KingHippo]

I'm really glad you're taking posts made by a number of people I could probably count on one hand and having them be the definitive "community voice" for everyone.

I really wish it weren't so, but my frustrations stem from almost a year of hair-brained posts and situations that extend as far back as MLG Columbus. There are just way too many to count and I certainly don't have the time to list them all.

It's hard not to argue that trash talking belongs in a competitive community. It most certainly does, but not when it doesn't stem from a legitimate cause.

What is more legitimate cause for trash talk then feeling wronged by another person? It's not even about being personal: it's just the natural escalation of things. Ridiculous statements must be met by a statement of equal or greater value. And believe it or not, hate can fuel gameplay in ways that not many things can. Hate is healthy and will always be a source as a way to fuel competitive play. The sooner we can accept this, the easier it will be to move on to things that should be clear from day 1.

 

[TakeAChance]

I disagree. Hate breeds ignorance and stupidity and really stupid posts.

Logic and gameplay create hype.

 

[B W1zZ]

I guess I'll be the one to get the gifs started, why not:

I personally don't have the time anymore to care about petty shit like this. Well written though.

 

[Juggs]

The oldest tradition in any competitive arena, trash talk, has now been chased out in favor of being contrite and humble even in the most extraordinary of circumstances. “Props” need to be given for the most pedestrian of accomplishments, and players are upset they play the people they play online in tournament. What could have happened to get to this position?

This isn't something that is exclusive to TYM, or even the entire MK community. "Trash talk" is just something you don't see very often in the FGC anymore. It happens, but not often. I think it has to do with the FGC becoming bigger and beginning to be more professional. I know we definitely want to appear to be more professional, but the FGC actually is growing and expanding in that direction. The problem is that this direction is nearly the direct opposite of its roots. Back in the day, the hype and drama filled the air in the FGC. When is the last time you saw some crazy drama like the Dark Prince stuff in MvC2? At the same time though, I think that hype is still captured at events, and even in a larger scale. It's just different hype. It's hype about the actual matches, instead of the drama behind them. That said, the match at the first MLG when CD Jr faced PL for the first time since PL won EVO, and all the drama and "storyline" that was built up, made that match so much more hype than it would have been. It's to this day still the most hype I've been watching a fighting game, and I was sitting at home watching it on stream.

As far as the top players being in a clique where the other, non top players aren't allowed to participate in this clique... I don't know what to say about that. I know that not all top players fall into this category, but some and maybe even most of them do. There's not much we can do about that. I don't know if this is a MK community exclusive problem or if it's something that happens across the FGC. If this is even what you meant in your post.

I don't see how this is all grouped in to being a "TYM" problem, though. Unless you meant TYM as in the MK community.

 

[KiD INsAnitY]

Community..lol

 

[KingHippo]

I disagree. Hate breeds ignorance and stupidity and really stupid posts.

Logic and gameplay create hype.

So you're telling me that no match is fueled or made interesting by the fact that the two people playing have a real legitimate beef between each other? Don't be naive, this isn't even true in just fighting games, it's across the board. Perfect example, Jr. vs PL at Columbus and Anaheim. In the air you could smell the tension, and it made the fights a lot more excitable by default.

I disagree entirely. Hell just yesterday I saw a video where Fanatiq (Marvel player) insinuated that PlayingtoWin wasn't worthy of existing on this earth. In Marvel, the talk gets very heated and more often than not it makes for a great competition. See Duc vs Sanford Kelly, Fanatiq vs MegaMan Steve, Andre vs Unknown and more where the atmosphere built up from months of back and forth talk exponentially increases the amount of hype the match has had there not have been that.

As far as the second half, no, I didn't intend to imply that there are top player cliques. What I did mean to say was that lately I've noticed some people saying that they would be none too pleased to play their online clan members in tournaments, despite being states apart. I don't need to say that this is a logistical nightmare for tournament organizers as is, but I think this sort of entitlement is quite silly. I frequently play Wolfkrone and Alioune in SFxT, and I really wouldn't feel comfortable playing them in a tournament, so put me out of their bracket? I can't imagine in any way shape or form this being very acceptable.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I disagree entirely. Hell just yesterday I saw a video where Fanatiq (Marvel player) insinuated that PlayingtoWin wasn't worthy of existing on this earth.
.

That is just plain dumb. The fact that he said it.... the fact the other guy actually took it to me anything outside of "man this dude saying stuff should be studying for his GED" is beyond me

There is a south park episode that covers this situation pretty clearly. Involves sghetti and butter.

 

[TakeAChance]

The fact that pure hatred cannot be utilized in a match in our competitive play means that it has no place within our sport. It would be different if people were swinging with their fist, when anger is a pure edge in battle.

In the case of PL vs CD Jr, those fights didn't need the drama associated with it. They would sell itself based on the calibur of the players. You can name off a ton of matches in the past where needless drama got the community side tracked and divided our players. A good example is the current divide between members of the boards and the travelling tournament players. There is a clear divide there which I hope gets mended ASAP.

Legit hype creates amazing moments. It also fosters the type of personalities that creates a professional and marketable community. It allows sponsors to not feel intimidated by the product and risk their image on someone who may end up making a fool out them.

Also, people don't want to play their online clan members in pools because those are their main training partners. It is absolutely 100% no different then going to a tournament and being a GGA member and then being upset that out of the 6 members of GGA that went, 4 are in your pool when there are 8 total pools.

Clans are easily distributed across pools. If they register with their clan tag, it's super easy. No different than VSM, GGA, EMP, EGP etc. If you don't, then it's hard to have sympathy for any of you. There is absolutely no reason why this concession cannot be made, and for the most part it is made at every tournament as long as you register with the same tags.

 

[miloPKL]

when injustice drops, i would like to see just a weeks worth of healthy gameplay related discussion. thats all i ask. i cant tell you how frustrating it is to see thread after thread of US MKC drama. its sooooo retarded on the outside looking in. from my point of view the only drama is the drama regarding drama. it only exists because tym cant shut up about it. thats my impression anyway. if we stopped talking about it and stopped with the meta threads about the drama, i feel it would cease to exist.

i just wanna play the game and talk about the game, enjoy a tourny stream now and then, and avoid 200 post beef threads - take that shit to MKU honestly...

 

[9.95]

KingHippo, I see no problem with promoting good sportsmanship. Why do you have a problem with people being humble?

Hear me out for a second. As a softball player, ESPECIALLY a pitcher (who happens to be in the most dangerous part of the field and is a target for batters), when you hit a Home Run, the general consensus is to just jog the bases...essentially "act like you've been there/done that".

There's a reason for this. Show up the other team by making a scene and you can essentially expect your pitcher to get hurt. Batters will begin purposely trying to aim at the pitcher to retaliate for being shown up.

In softball, the consequences are physical.


In MK IN PARTICULAR, the consequences are embarrassment. In MK, we have a way of saying to another player, "You're so free, I can beat you without even needing to DEFEND MYSELF!"...all without ever having to say a word to that person.

Embarrassing enough as getting babied may be, seasoned players are used to it at this point. But what about the new tournament players... or the overly salty ones who may be driven away from the tournament scene by malicious intent to embarrass another player? How is THAT healthy for the growth of the scene?

Now I'll grant you that I did the "babality" shirt and bib during Winter Brawl...and it was light hearted... but make no mistake that more than a few players explicitly told me that they would refuse to wear the shirt or bib if they had "won" it...and the reason? "It's embarrassing".


So yes, I'm all for promoting good sportsmanship and humility.

On the other hand, when REAL issues between players exist, then have at it. I've been in softball "middle wars" (the middle is the area the pitcher stands in) where both teams are purposely spending the entire game trying to hit the opposing pitcher... and I have had the bruises to prove it. This is how we settle differences in softball though... AND IT'S STILL WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THE GAME.

Coming on TYM, or ANY website to trash talk another player because they didn't do well is just poor sportsmanship, lack of humility and just asking for people to try to baby you at the next event... providing you show up.

 

[KingHippo]

KingHippoSnip

I'm not against being humble at all; in fact I think it's a pretty damn admirable trait given what we're all doing.

The problem I have is when people aren't humble, which happens, and people act like they should be and are ruining the game as we know by doing it. Take for example KevoDaMan. He was on quite a roll in the middle of 2012, and he wasn't as humble about it as some would like. There was talk of having him actually banned from NE events because he did that. What is the point of that? If any individual had a problem with what he was saying, show up and beat him. That's keeping it in the game.

It's not mature, no, and it isn't sportsmanlike, but it certainly fosters a competitive drive to beat (Or "humiliate" as you put it) the person in the game to make them be quiet. It's not "tearing the community apart", it's a good motivation and shouldn't be snuffed out completely. You can't force a person to be humble.

To sum up what I'm saying, forcing people to be contrite and humble in extraordinary circumstances is more harmful than it is helpful, in my experience.

 

[9.95]

*snip*

There were things outside the game that Kevo did that cause there to be talk of him being banned from NE tournaments. Ultimately, that still never happened.

 

[KingHippo]

There were things outside the game that Kevo did that cause there to be talk of him being banned from NE tournaments. Ultimately, that still never happened.

Well that I wouldn't know, but I feel like outside of pulling a knife or throwing fists, there's no reason to ban anyone from any event.

 

[9.95]

Well that I wouldn't know, but I feel like outside of pulling a knife or throwing fists, there's no reason to ban anyone from any event.

Threats of violence are as well. If given a reason to believe someone will do that, then there's definitely reason to act in order to prevent an incident rather than act after and incident.

 

[PPJ]

i dont consider you a jobber, i consider you low midcard atm if that means anything l()l

 

[KingHippo]

Lmao alright I'll take it. One step closer to JOURNEYMAN STATUS

 

[CrimsonShadow]

The 2 time Evolution Champion makes a post attempting to air out his frustration at those who previously lashed out at him, and he’s derided for it being “too soon”. He is later referred to as a good player who “Won a couple tournaments”. Where does this kind of stunning lack of awareness originate?.

Well, how many MK9 tournaments has the player you're speaking of won?

I think the problem is, people need to understand precedent. If a player who is very nice, and hardly talks any smack (Dizzy) shows up to TYM and gets blown up, that's possibly a 'lack of awareness'.

However, if a player who seems to drag other players down every time he opens his mouth shows up and blows up two guys who just placed in top8 at a minefield of a tournament, and gets blown up, it's probably just people talking smack back.

And if you're going to start the smack talk, it should be cool to take it back. That's the only way it can be fun.

Also, I think a lot of people don't understand that certain people talk to each each other in more places than the forum.. And that some things that are said here, are tounge-in-cheek and done to hype competition up. Like TAC said, the line is clear -- once it deviates into deriding people in a personal way, then it's no longer fun and shouldn't be acceptable.

I don't want people to feel like if they see, for example, Tom and I going back and forth on stream that it's some kind of Tom vs. TYM or Mod vs. Top player debacle; it's two people having fun jiving with each other, and it shouldn't be construed as any more than that.

 

[KingHippo]

Well, how many MK9 tournaments has the player you're speaking of won?

I think the problem is, people need to understand precedent. If a player who is very nice, and hardly talks any smack (Dizzy) shows up to TYM and gets blown up, that's possibly a 'lack of awareness'.

However, if a player who seems to drag other players down every time he opens his mouth shows up and blows up two guys who just placed in top8 at a minefield of a tournament, and gets blown up, it's probably just people talking smack back.

And if you're going to start the smack talk, it should be cool to take it back. That's the only way it can be fun.

Also, I think a lot of people don't understand that certain people talk to each each other in more places than the forum.. And that some things that are said here, are tounge-in-cheek and done to hype competition up. Like TAC said, the line is clear -- once it deviates into deriding people in a personal way, then it's no longer fun and shouldn't be acceptable.

I don't want people to feel like if they see, for example, Tom and I going back and forth on stream that it's some kind of Tom vs. TYM or Mod vs. Top player debacle; it's two people having fun jiving with each other, and it shouldn't be construed as any more than that.

The 'lack of awareness' was you saying that he won two tournaments. Those two tournaments were Evo and Evo. That alone carries a lot more weight than 'just two tournaments'.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

The 'lack of awareness' was you saying that he won two tournaments. Those two tournaments were Evo and Evo. That alone carries a lot more weight than 'just two tournaments'.

Read my post again here.. You missed the entire point of it