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Player Skill (Very Serious Discussion)

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Ok guys, one of the things that sometimes annoys the hell out of me on TYM is trully the fact that some players are discredited for their results on any tournament at any corner of the world.

Winter Brawl 7 was amazing and had lots of player, but it seems that not everyone thinks of it.
So are ppl saying that WB lacks of high level competition? what could make it different if you were there, would you win?

Gross managed to place top 8 with sektor, but some players said "his sektor didn't look impressive at all"
Its that Gross fault? No, IMO if gross managed to get in top 8 is clearly because he played a lot better than the opponents he faced, its a fact.

This is one of the examples, sometimes we discuss tier lists, matchups and at one point players remove the skill and focus on characters tools exclusively without counting with the player capability to execute it, but once the disagreements of countering tools with tools start, one justify that its not possible because option x or y should have to be considered instead of option z, isn't this considered a player skill to recognize the other tools in time to react with the pretended option?

And the worst of all, is definitely the excuse of saying you defeated A or B because they weren't on a High level of play, or because they didn't knew the MU, or saying on a X Level of play option X or Y wouldn't never happen. To me its the same as saying:"If you were fighting me, none of what you did would work" Which is what i think when a player skill in the game is discredited.

What the hell! So i ask this:
To a what point when two players are fighting when is that MU has to be considered, when is that player skill is stopped to be considered?
If certain strategies are gimmicks to what point they should never being taken in account during a match?
You guys tell me, if you are able to enter your opponent's way of thinking how he has to fight against you, and you on that very short seconds, you put yourself on his place and see what options you should do if you were fighting yourself at that time. And you see a opening on his defense with a gimmick isin't supposed to work on a high level of play. You will not use it because its a gimmick and will never work on a High level play?

Curbo won winterbrawl 7, some ppl loved because curbo won, others where disappointed because he picked Kabal and won the tournament, so are the disappointed ppl saying Curbo has no Skill that is why he picked Kabal?

I know some ppl are afraid of saying, REO picked Kabal because its the best character of the game, but does most of you really think REO only wins because he picks Kabal? Does no one ever took into account that if he dedicated equal time into another character, maybe the result would be the same?

Anyway, to what point do you guys recognize a skilled player or just another scrub player? if that is the correct term to say.

I want to know your opinion about this.
 

LanceMonsoon

All in on Johnny Football
In response to the Curbo, Kabal and REO thing, I think thats bullshit. Curbo has proved he is a top player many times without Kabal. So anyone saying he won because of Kabal is just salty. Now, REO would do well with any "viable" character. Being serious, there are a lot of characters that can't get the job done in a tournament. But the last 2 majors both only had 2 top 8 Kabals. Kabal is king, no doubt but to say people win just because of there character selection is retarded.
 

Fractured_Shadow

Really likes to throw things at you.
to say people win just because of there character selection is retarded.
That is not necessarily true. While I agree that the player holding the controller is a large part of outcome, the counterpick and roster game is the other major factor. A player who mains Kabal with a strong secondary of Sonya will win 95% of the time against a player of equal skill who mains Johnny Cage and Reptile... The decisive division between the top three characters and the rest of the roster cannot be ignored. I believe REO even stated in an interview that Kabal was the first character he has ever used who has not held him back as a player in any way and with any MU....
 

LanceMonsoon

All in on Johnny Football
That is not necessarily true. While I agree that the player holding the controller is a large part of outcome, the counterpick and roster game is the other major factor. A player who mains Kabal with a strong secondary of Sonya will win 95% of the time against a player of equal skill who mains Johnny Cage and Reptile... The decisive division between the top three characters and the rest of the roster cannot be ignored. I believe REO even stated in an interview that Kabal was the first character he has ever used who has not held him back as a player in any way and with any MU....
I agree that counter-picking is important but the examples you used aren't the best tbh. Reptile can hang with Kabal a lot easier then most of the cast and Johnny Cage vs Sonya isn't a bad matchup either (6-4 at worst). So I disagree if somebody mains JC and Reptile and the other person mains Kabal and Sonya, the JC/Reptile main should be able to win if they are the better player.
 

Fractured_Shadow

Really likes to throw things at you.
if they are the better player.
You are missing the point... I said if they are equally skilled.... and I wasn't saying if a JC/Rep player faced a Kabal/Sonya player... I was saying in general a Kabal/Sonya player has 100% of the roster covered in CP.... while a JC/Rep does not....
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
You are missing the point... I said if they are equally skilled.... and I wasn't saying if a JC/Rep player faced a Kabal/Sonya player... I was saying in general a Kabal/Sonya player has 100% of the roster covered in CP.... while a JC/Rep does not....
what does CP means?
 

Fractured_Shadow

Really likes to throw things at you.
You cannot discount MU's.... remember MU charts are based off of players of equal skill playing their respective players at the highest level... Kenshi is the best example of how broken the tiers are in MK9.... I don't care how great REO is, if he was to take say, Raiden to EVO, he would get blown up... Just look at Tom Brady, guy is AMAZING with Sub-Sero, but his case I feel the character is limiting the player.
 
Reo has proven himself to be great in this game with multiple characters. Reo himself though has stated he plays the best characters in the game, so I dont think anybody will accuse him of that since its already a fact.
 

Fractured_Shadow

Really likes to throw things at you.
Hell, just take a look at Smoke (The character)... Has resets, great footsies, can't be zoned, and has never won a Major...
 

Fractured_Shadow

Really likes to throw things at you.
Reo has proven himself to be great in this game with multiple characters. Reo himself though has stated he plays the best characters in the game, so I dont think anybody will accuse him of that since its already a fact.
Everybody seems to be missing the point here.... While, yes top players will ALWAYS be top players, the characters they use is a HUGE part of their success...
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
Ok guys, one of the things that sometimes annoys the hell out of me on TYM is trully the fact that some players are discredited for their results on any tournament at any corner of the world.

Winter Brawl 7 was amazing and had lots of player, but it seems that not everyone thinks of it.
So are ppl saying that WB lacks of high level competition? what could make it different if you were there, would you win?

Gross managed to place top 8 with sektor, but some players said "his sektor didn't look impressive at all"
Its that Gross fault? No, IMO if gross managed to get in top 8 is clearly because he played a lot better than the opponents he faced, its a fact.

This is one of the examples, sometimes we discuss tier lists, matchups and at one point players remove the skill and focus on characters tools exclusively without counting with the player capability to execute it, but once the disagreements of countering tools with tools start, one justify that its not possible because option x or y should have to be considered instead of option z, isn't this considered a player skill to recognize the other tools in time to react with the pretended option?

And the worst of all, is definitely the excuse of saying you defeated A or B because they weren't on a High level of play, or because they didn't knew the MU, or saying on a X Level of play option X or Y wouldn't never happen. To me its the same as saying:"If you were fighting me, none of what you did would work" Which is what i think when a player skill in the game is discredited.

What the hell! So i ask this:
To a what point when two players are fighting when is that MU has to be considered, when is that player skill is stopped to be considered?
If certain strategies are gimmicks to what point they should never being taken in account during a match?
You guys tell me, if you are able to enter your opponent's way of thinking how he has to fight against you, and you on that very short seconds, you put yourself on his place and see what options you should do if you were fighting yourself at that time. And you see a opening on his defense with a gimmick isin't supposed to work on a high level of play. You will not use it because its a gimmick and will never work on a High level play?

Curbo won winterbrawl 7, some ppl loved because curbo won, others where disappointed because he picked Kabal and won the tournament, so are the disappointed ppl saying Curbo has no Skill that is why he picked Kabal?

I know some ppl are afraid of saying, REO picked Kabal because its the best character of the game, but does most of you really think REO only wins because he picks Kabal? Does no one ever took into account that if he dedicated equal time into another character, maybe the result would be the same?

Anyway, to what point do you guys recognize a skilled player or just another scrub player? if that is the correct term to say.

I want to know your opinion about this.
Curbo won WB 7 because hes an awesome player

Do i need to even begin to list all the kabals who are good, great and low level players who havent even made top 8 w the characters?

Same goes w Kenshi, cyrax, lao, freddy, cage, etc

ITS ALWAYS THE PLAYER'S skills behind the character that makes it happen
 

Fractured_Shadow

Really likes to throw things at you.
Yea because everyone who uses him makes top 8 and wins tourneys

............#OhWait
No, but in all seriousness Pig, you cannot discount Kenshi's ability, just like everybody who uses Kabal does not win every event, that still doesn't make Kabal any less OP and by far the best chacter in the game... f you are using Kabal/Kenshi and losing sets to a JC you are doing somthing wrong.... If a character has a 9-1 MU he has a broken mechanic...
 

Death

Warrior
I don't think it's impressive when players win with their super character. There's probably a lot of players out there who are better than the "top" players but no one will know cuz their character holds them back.

I think if a player is only looking for props they should main a shit character and try to do good
 

Fractured_Shadow

Really likes to throw things at you.
Curbo won WB 7 because hes an awesome player

Do i need to even begin to list all the kabals who are good, great and low level players who havent even made top 8 w the characters?

Same goes w Kenshi, cyrax, lao, freddy, cage, etc

ITS ALWAYS THE PLAYER'S skills behind the character that makes it happen
Ok PIG at your next tourny use only mileena... if you win I will say you are totally right....
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
I don't think it's impressive when players win with their super character. There's probably a lot of players out there who are better than the "top" players but no one will know cuz their character holds them back.

I think if a player is only looking for props they should main a shit character and try to do good
I think some players always look for excuses
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
Ok PIG at your next tourny use only mileena... if you win I will say you are totally right....
i dont like mileena anymore, I dont enjoy her. You're asking me to use a character i dont use anymore or enjoy using

And when i did use her I got 7th at nec as well as used her for 80% at evo 2012 and got 3rd
 
Everybody seems to be missing the point here.... While, yes top players will ALWAYS be top players, the characters they use is a HUGE part of their success...
True, but it is a true skill of a fighting game player to be able to see what is cheap and what is not cheap early on in the game. being able to suit your playstyle to that top character is not always a given. a good example is PL. even though kenshi is probably better than kung lao, I dont think he would have the same succes with kenshi or maybe even kabal.

a lot of people will say winning tournaments with top characters is not as good as winning with a mid tier character which isnt always the case imo. Tokido is good in all fighting games he plays because he is able to identify the cheapness of a character early on in the game+ the fact that a good fighting game player in general like tokido or chris G has to have the ability to abuse the mechanics of the game.

Subzero could be a very broken character if you put him in another fighting game, but he isnt because the machanics of mk9 doesnt compliment his playstyle and moves.
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
True, but it is a true skill of a fighting game player to be able to see what is cheap and what is not cheap early on in the game. being able to suit your playstyle to that top character is not always a given. a good example is PL. even though kenshi is probably better than kung lao, I dont think he would have the same chance with kenshi or maybe even kabal.

a lot of people will say winning tournaments with top characters is not as good as winning with a mid tier character which isnt always the case imo. Tokido is good in all fighting games he plays because he is able to identify the cheapness of a character early on in the game+ the fact that a good fighting game player in general like tokido or chris G has to have the ability to abuse the mechanics of the game.

Subzero could be a very broken character if you put him in another fighting game, but he isnt because the machanics of mk9 doesnt compliment his playstyle and moves.
I agree w this

Also A lot of lower skilled players are completely unable to use the cheapness and brokenness of a character correctly and that upsets them
 

Fractured_Shadow

Really likes to throw things at you.
i dont like mileena anymore, I dont enjoy her. You're asking me to use a character i dont use anymore or enjoy using

And when i did use her I got 7th at nec as well as used her for 80% at evo 2012 and got 3rd
I cannot believe that there are people who argue that MU's don't take account and it is all player skill.... if this was the case MU charts would be pointless, tiers would be LOL, and everybody would play who they enjoy... The fact that a player CAN be held back by their character cannot be denied....TOM FUCKING BRADY, GGA_DIZZY, XxSmokexX, 16Bit, all great players, all being held back by their respective characters...
 

Death

Warrior
I think some players always look for excuses
Are we really back to that? If characters don't matter than you would of never mained kenshi. You clearly knew using him would better your chances at placing and it did. That's not a bad thing but don't talk like characters don't matter.
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
Are we really back to that? If characters don't matter than you would of never mained kenshi. You clearly knew using him would better your chances at placing and it did. That's not a bad thing but don't talk like characters don't matter.
characters do matter I KNOW THIS but what you guys are failing to understand and fathom is it takes a great player to truly utilize their cheapness.

Do i have to name all those who constantly fail w kabal, kenshi, sonya, cyrax and show you the ones who succeed w them?

Think about that for a sec

Character tools definitely matter but it takes great players to utilize them