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Match-up Discussion LBSH Cyrax is Broken Mu Chart

crosstalk

Kombatant
Yeah Cage-Cyrax is more of a 4.5-5.5 in Cyrax's favor just because Cyrax has better risk/reward options and he has a decent keepaway game with net, bombs, buzzsaw, and his great pokes. It's definitely not 3-7.
 

YOMI DJT

LIn Kuei Champion
Most good players play the whole cast at a decent level. But that dont mean they're good enough to represent them to their full potential.
yeah but is kano sheeva Csz going to get you far in a tournament like evo? when there is kabal, cyrax, sonya,kenshi, freddy. doesn't matter how much you know with characters like kano because at the highest lvl you'll be losing more than winning etc
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
Lol ok fair enough on cage. Cyrax makes me hella emo to be honest, I hate fighting him as cage more than I hate fighting kenshi.
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
How is that possible? lol
Idk man its like, against kenshi I know what I am dealing with and I can make a couple bad reads and still do something crazy (I am not afraid as a player to take risks, since I spend all day fighting kabal with cage) and pull out the win. With cyrax though, I just feel like there is this random factor where cyrax can be patient, guess right once and start his slew of bs with command grabs and crazy damage. I hate randomness as a player, so knowing that i most likely will not win is better than being like random 80 percent damage. 6-4 cyrax seems fair though.
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
I guess I just know the matchup well. I'm like that with Sonya and Jax lol.
I know the matchup really well too, I still hate it. I don't think anybody likes fighting sonya, not even us sonya players. Jax is my second favorite matchup to play in the game though, behind kabal.
 

crosstalk

Kombatant
Idk man its like, against kenshi I know what I am dealing with and I can make a couple bad reads and still do something crazy (I am not afraid as a player to take risks, since I spend all day fighting kabal with cage) and pull out the win. With cyrax though, I just feel like there is this random factor where cyrax can be patient, guess right once and start his slew of bs with command grabs and crazy damage. I hate randomness as a player, so knowing that i most likely will not win is better than being like random 80 percent damage. 6-4 cyrax seems fair though.
Yeah it's really a battle of patience on both sides. Cage can't get too greedy when approaching Cyrax. He definitely can put the pressure on Cyrax and has an advantage up close. Sweep range is where Cyrax can really shine with buzzsaw and his long range pokes. On top of this, bombs can force you to play Cyrax's game by forcing you to move where he wants. The command grab BS is stupid but it just comes down to reads - every character has to deal with it.

Kenshi is like... I'm just gonna lock you down with this BS and eliminate about 90% of your options.
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
Yeah it's really a battle of patience on both sides. Cage can't get too greedy when approaching Cyrax. He definitely can put the pressure on Cyrax and has an advantage up close. Sweep range is where Cyrax can really shine with buzzsaw and his long range pokes. On top of this, bombs can force you to play Cyrax's game by forcing you to move where he wants. The command grab BS is stupid but it just comes down to reads - every character has to deal with it.

Kenshi is like... I'm just gonna lock you down with this BS and eliminate about 90% of your options.
Cyrax is one of the few characters to out footsie cage but yeah as in all other matchups you jut need to be patient and force key breakers and you are set. I do fine in the matchup and all, I just don't like it haha.
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
Csz is viable enough to get destroyed by rax get out here with that csz talk.
CSZ has 2 weaknesses:

- No armour
- No way of fighting instant air projectiles

Cyrax doesnt have:
- iAFBs
- As many guess games in his offense that raise the need for armour, in which case the Ex parry /close divekick will do the same thing.
 

Pho Cubic

Sérieusement Sabrewulf peut aller en enfer.
Nice chart. Btw I think Cyrax beats Smoke 7-3. Cyrax just has to dash block until he gets in. Once he does, Smoke is fucked. Smoke has good pokes, but his normals are very slow (think Mileena but with a 9 frame 2 and you get the idea). Factor in that Cyrax can punish a blocked d1 for 80+% percent and yeah...that leaves Smoke's options up close to d3, 2 1 4, throw, and d4/b2 3/3 d1 2 (if space permits) vs Cyrax's 100+ options. Smoke has to watch out for Cyrax's stupid low/overhead mixups, and if Smoke holds block too long he risks getting command grabbed. It's pretty bad. The one major edge Smoke has in this matchup is anti-air damage, as Smoke has the highest anti-air damage in the game by far (he can do 100% damage off an anti-air if he has the meter). Too bad the Cyrax player already knows this and won't jump. GG.

In terms of what to use meter for, Smoke has 3 options:

1) Save meter for high combo damage. Overall Smoke has a much harder time landing significant damage than Cyrax does, so good luck to Smoke waiting for that combo opportunity.

2) Save meter to break. This is fine and dandy until Smoke lands a combo, then your own damage is nerfed because you have no meter. Instead of doing 70+%, Smoke does mid 30s. Plus Cyrax has breaker traps and unbreakable setups galore, so yeah.

3) A combination of both.

All these options suck to be frank, not that Smoke will often have the freedom to build large amounts of meter anyways! Why? Simply due a little thing called ex-Net. Seriously...this is one of main reasons I feel the match-up is so bad. There so so many opportunities for Cyrax to do this is the matchup. Basically every time right he's about to reset you, he can just drain your meter. The opportunity even arises in the command grab loop. If Cyrax keeps doing command grab f2 etc, once Smoke is conditioned to not block the f2, then Cyrax can just f2 xx ex-Net into reset and Smoke is fucked. Imo this match-up would be 6-4 Cyrax if Cyrax didn't have ex-Net. That plus Cyrax's meter building up close makes this pretty shitty for Smoke. I would say this is 6.5-3.5 advantage Cyrax but since you're not using decimals let's call it 7-3. Seriously...a character that does ~80% combos shouldn't have the ability to drain your meter too. Broken ass robot...
 

Soul Bound X

Kombatant
Lol ok fair enough on cage. Cyrax makes me hella emo to be honest, I hate fighting him as cage more than I hate fighting kenshi.
yeah, against an average kenshi player i guess i could agree. but at a high level atleast the cyrax mu is a winnable match. against a high level kenshi, cage should almost never win.
 
If his top damage was around 15% to 25% less then it is now with one bar or 2, I wouldn't think every cyrax MU chart would have these super favour match ups. cyrax has a harder time than every other top 10 character in actually getting these types of punishes. yeah he has the dirtiest ways of getting a lot of damage. getting in isn't easy with cyrax and net bomb doesn't harass hard enough mid rang. He's a good character but not top five.
Wouldn't smoke be top five a swell? I would say smoke is a better cyrax
 

Pho Cubic

Sérieusement Sabrewulf peut aller en enfer.
He's a good character but not top five. Wouldn't smoke be top five a swell? I would say smoke is a better cyrax
Nah...I don't think so man. Smoke has a huge hitbox that makes it extremely hard for him up close against Lao, Kabal, Jax and Sonya. Not only that but his SB can't really keep characters out very well, so he has trouble with Johnny Cage and Cyrax too. You can't lose 6 matchups and still be top 5. Cyrax on the other hand only clearly loses to Kabal imo. I'd say Cyrax is top 3 for sure. Whether or not he's better than Lao is debatable, especially since Lao has 3 disadvantage matchups against popular characters (Kitana, Kabal, and Cyrax himself) vs Cyrax's 1.

If you play Freddy I completely understand why you think Smoke is so good, but vs most of the tournament viable characters Cyrax is much better.
 

Pho Cubic

Sérieusement Sabrewulf peut aller en enfer.
lol, hell no. his resets are inferior to cyrax's. he doesn't have a 50/50 command grab mixup (into death or another grab) either. cyrax >>>>>>>> smoke.
I wouldn't necessarily say Smoke's resets are inferior (Cyrax does more damage off the ground, but Smoke has 100% anti-air combos provided he has the meter), but yes Cyrax is better. Mainly due to the fact that Cyrax's ridiculous rushdown and more dirt (breaker traps, ex-net, corner game, anti-air going through projectiles, insane advantages of f2, d4, etc.)
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
yeah, against an average kenshi player i guess i could agree. but at a high level atleast the cyrax mu is a winnable match. against a high level kenshi, cage should almost never win.
Lol the kenshi i play is pig. And you are correct, I rarely win, and I beat a lot of very good cyrax players very consistently. But I don't mind fighting kenshi as much as cyrax, thats all. It isn't rational lol.
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
If his top damage was around 15% to 25% less then it is now with one bar or 2, I wouldn't think every cyrax MU chart would have these super favour match ups. cyrax has a harder time than every other top 10 character in actually getting these types of punishes. yeah he has the dirtiest ways of getting a lot of damage. getting in isn't easy with cyrax and net bomb doesn't harass hard enough mid rang. He's a good character but not top five.
Wouldn't smoke be top five a swell? I would say smoke is a better cyrax
Wait wait wait wait. How is it difficult to get in with cyrax? He has a godlike d4 with massive advantage on hit, and close bomb helps back them into the corner. He also has an advancing move that, while slow, is advantage on block. Cyrax is almost as easy to get in with as sonya blade.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
guys i didnt mix my protein powder correct this time and its like small moist pieces of vanilla deliciousness dipped in milk
 

Mt. Mutombo

Asshole by nature
6-4 smoke?

lol really?

7-3 mileena? what?

And all those 7-3s!? Don't get me wrong i mostly agree with the list, but lbsh Smoke is one of his worst MUs, no one goes 7-3 against mileena and a lot of those 7-3 MUs you posted are 6-4s and even 5-5.