Match-up Discussion Scorpion vs Smoke?

[Vagrant]

So heres another matchup I thought I had an idea about and then I ran sets with wafflez last night and yeah....wow....fuck...

How do you guys typically play this MU? I know Scorp is at a disadvantage but I don't think it's unwinnable by any means.

 

[ryublaze]

I think this is a really bad matchup (3-7) cuz Smoke can punish hard with his resets. Scorpion can't even punish smoke bomb on block IIRC. Some people might have better answers but when I play this MU I like to stay close to mid range and punish his mistakes with B2. If he smokes forward/away you can hellfire him (not sure if you can spear him). and maybe I was just getting lucky and idk if you can react to smoke bomb from far away but I've been able to EX Spear trade with smoke bomb at fullscreen before. Sorry if I wasn't much help, the only MU experience I've had with smoke was from online.

 

[OutworldKeith]

RedRaptor10
Spear is a bad idea against that Smoke forward/away nonsense. Hellfire is your best bet.

Vagrant
I'll post my general approach to this MU when I get home. Like how I did in the Kung Lao thread.

 

[FrothyOmen]

This match is 5-5. You are able to zone Smoke well. Keep him fullscreen. You have a huge guessing game in instant teleport and hellfire. Smoke has to jump sometime, and when he does you teleport him for full combo or spear him for full combo.. If you read him doing anything else EX spear. Scorpion doe snot have to fear anything Smoke does, since he can spend so much time in the air for free playing jump-in mindgames with smoke. Smoke can't combo off SB in a trade becuase he'll be stuck in hellfire blockstun. It's 5% in his favor but smoke's not even going to be throwing many bombs since there aren't many situations for him to make them really work. I think that you only need to worry about using scorpion's safe vortex vs. him, no need to commit to a f4~spear. Throw max-range b2's and laugh at smoke's inability to punish it if he blocks. Slide tackle is your friend, makes smoke hold that block button so you can mix him up.

I fucking hate this matchup so much. I cannot beat even the most scrubby of scorpions, let alone ones that know what they're doing. He removes all semblance of footsies from the game, it's a game of who can make better guesses on when to throw out random shit and hope it works. Scorpion's got better random shit to throw out, while smoke's got more damaging random shit. The only footsies scorpion I've ever played was Slips, and he would've raped me playing a 5 minute kabal so doesn't even count. Don't even get me started on a scorpion who actually knows how to play even basic footsies and whiff punishes everything smoke does.

Add me on XBL and I'll help you figure out what to do.

 

[OutworldKeith]

This match is 5-5. You are able to zone Smoke well. Keep him fullscreen. You have a huge guessing game in instant teleport and hellfire. Smoke has to jump sometime, and when he does you teleport him for full combo or spear him for full combo.. If you read him doing anything else EX spear. Scorpion doe snot have to fear anything Smoke does, since he can spend so much time in the air for free playing jump-in mindgames with smoke. Smoke can't combo off SB in a trade becuase he'll be stuck in hellfire blockstun. It's 5% in his favor but smoke's not even going to be throwing many bombs since there aren't many situations for him to make them really work. I think that you only need to worry about using scorpion's safe vortex vs. him, no need to commit to a f4~spear. Throw max-range b2's and laugh at smoke's inability to punish it if he blocks. Slide tackle is your friend, makes smoke hold that block button so you can mix him up.

I fucking hate this matchup so much. I cannot beat even the most scrubby of scorpions, let alone ones that know what they're doing. He removes all semblance of footsies from the game, it's a game of who can make better guesses on when to throw out random shit and hope it works. Scorpion's got better random shit to throw out, while smoke's got more damaging random shit. The only footsies scorpion I've ever played was Slips, and he would've raped me playing a 5 minute kabal so doesn't even count. Don't even get me started on a scorpion who actually knows how to play even basic footsies and whiff punishes everything smoke does.

Add me on XBL and I'll help you figure out what to do.

I disagree. This MU is in smokes favor 6:4.

 

[OZZYGUITAR]

K.O.E_18 FrothyOmen Vagrant RedRaptor10
I have to say this is a 7-3 matchup in smokes favor, #1 you cannot zone him, smoke ball trades with hellfire and teleport is extremely risky considering he can, you know, take away your entire life bar if he reads it, even an ex teleport is full combo punishable, you can hellfire his smoke aways/towards but so what? He doesnt need to play the run away game, he can just as easily pressure scorp as scorp can pressure him, the only saving grace in this matchup is once again the fact the scorpion always has a chance to come back with his vortex, but, to get a high reward, you have to take a high risk, which against any smoke with meter, can be a very bad decision. as far as footsies, i have to agree the wiff punishing is easy, spear and b2 wiff punishes are actually pretty damn good, but scorpions offensive footsies are either risky or get him nowhere, not to mention smoke can easily wiff punish with a smokeball, and we all know what that means. The main point is, scorpion eventually has to take a risk if he makes 1 bad mistake, a bad read/ wrong guess equals absolute death and obliteration, its the same with cyrax and even similar with kitana

 

[OZZYGUITAR]

Also to add in, u can jump hellfire on reaction if your looking for it, which you should be fullscreen ,you can hardcore bait anything scorpion does, so you can punish or get in his face for free, plus if you through the first projectile, you win, scorpion is forced to take a huge risk or to come to you, also granting you the opportunity to build meter that will lead to you winning. as far as punishing max range b2, im fairly sure you can smokeball it, but i could be wrong,but even then scorpion is at disadv and youre back in a footsies game where scorpion loses.

 

[OutworldKeith]

OZZYGUITAR Vagrant RedRaptor10 FrothyOmen
I see this MU as a 6-4, but I could agree with a 7-3 because of Smoke's reset. This MU is a battle for momentum, and once either character gains it, someone is losing a lot of life.

Hellfire trade is worthless in this MU, but Smoke really isn't a heavy zoning character. If Hellfire trades, you get boned. You have to have decent meter management so there's always the threat of Ex Spear in your back pocket. Ex spear opens up offensive opportunities that are harder for Scorp to get because he lacks advantage on d4. For example, you can obviously blow up pressure, or your opponent will try to bait it out for a free punish. If used correctly Ex Spear will definitely make smoke hesitate, making the MU a bit easier. You can also sneak in a few Hellfires because Smoke doesn't want you to Ex Spear his Smoke clouds. His footsies tools are much better than Scorp's (no surprise), but good fundamentals/spacing will help.

Scorp can get good pressure and damage opportunities during Smoke's wakeup. Against most characters Smoke can get up for free using Smoke toward/away. Hellfire beats Smoke toward/away, and makes Smoke's wakeup game unsafe. Keep in mind that he can jump on wakeup, and punish Hellfire. Jumps on wakeup can still be baited into a damaging AA combo. Once you take away his safe wakeup, take those opportunities to bait unsafe wakeup attacks, and pressure him. You need to have a strong oki game in this MU.

Smoke cloud cannot be punished on block, but it's still -9. Scorp gets a throw attempt or 3,3,4 check.

 

[Faded Dreams V]

Smoke definitely wins this MU. I'd lean towards 6-4, but I can easily see it being 7-3.

I base this on absolutely nothing.

 

[OutworldKeith]

Smoke definitely wins this MU. I'd lean towards 6-4, but I can easily see it being 7-3.

I base this on absolutely nothing.

It's kinda like when KL has X-ray, the MU becomes 7-3. It's essentially the same against Smoke when he has meter.

 

[OZZYGUITAR]

OZZYGUITAR Vagrant RedRaptor10 FrothyOmen
I see this MU as a 6-4, but I could agree with a 7-3 because of Smoke's reset. This MU is a battle for momentum, and once either character gains it, someone is losing a lot of life.

Hellfire trade is worthless in this MU, but Smoke really isn't a heavy zoning character. If Hellfire trades, you get boned. You have to have decent meter management so there's always the threat of Ex Spear in your back pocket. Ex spear opens up offensive opportunities that are harder for Scorp to get because he lacks advantage on d4. For example, you can obviously blow up pressure, or your opponent will try to bait it out for a free punish. If used correctly Ex Spear will definitely make smoke hesitate, making the MU a bit easier. You can also sneak in a few Hellfires because Smoke doesn't want you to Ex Spear his Smoke clouds. His footsies tools are much better than Scorp's (no surprise), but good fundamentals/spacing will help.

Scorp can get good pressure and damage opportunities during Smoke's wakeup. Against most characters Smoke can get up for free using Smoke toward/away. Hellfire beats Smoke toward/away, and makes Smoke's wakeup game unsafe. Keep in mind that he can jump on wakeup, and punish Hellfire. Jumps on wakeup can still be baited into a damaging AA combo. Once you take away his safe wakeup, take those opportunities to bait unsafe wakeup attacks, and pressure him. You need to have a strong oki game in this MU.

Smoke cloud cannot be punished on block, but it's still -9. Scorp gets a throw attempt or 3,3,4 check.

I guess could agree to disagree, it is in the middle of 6-4 and 7-3, the issue with using an ex spear though is you're using your meter, meter that you absolutely need it to break, and while the wakeup game scorpion has on him is helpful, i still dont think its enough to really make this matchup only slightly bad, if we can use decimals, then i'd say 6.5-3.5, hands down

 

[OutworldKeith]

I guess could agree to disagree, it is in the middle of 6-4 and 7-3, the issue with using an ex spear though is you're using your meter, meter that you absolutely need it to break, and while the wakeup game scorpion has on him is helpful, i still dont think its enough to really make this matchup only slightly bad, if we can use decimals, then i'd say 6.5-3.5, hands down

It only takes one hit or even a miss with Ex Spear to establish the mindgame. With those extra opportunities to establish pressure, you'll be building a good amount of meter for breaker. With good meter management you'll be sitting on 2 bars most of the time anyway.

The only factor that pushes it beyond 6-4 is the reset. Not to mention I'm not even factoring in the likely possibility of dropping the reset.

 

[OZZYGUITAR]

It only takes one hit or even a miss with Ex Spear to establish the mindgame. With those extra opportunities to establish pressure, you'll be building a good amount of meter for breaker. With good meter management you'll be sitting on 2 bars most of the time anyway.

The only factor that pushes it beyond 6-4 is the reset. Not to mention I'm not even factoring in the likely possibility of dropping the reset.

well matchups are considered at the highest possible level, meaning that dropped combos cant be factored in lol, at the highest possible level, thje player will not drop the combo. But the ex spear can be effective but its very situation, and meter management is by far the most important thing, if you throw a ton of ex spears, ur gonna be screwed lol, but with moderation it is a legitimate tactic

 

[RiBBz22]

I would say it is 6-4. Scorpions moves are too unsafe and 1 punish is deadly.

 

[OutworldKeith]

well matchups are considered at the highest possible level, meaning that dropped combos cant be factored in lol, at the highest possible level, thje player will not drop the combo. But the ex spear can be effective but its very situation, and meter management is by far the most important thing, if you throw a ton of ex spears, ur gonna be screwed lol, but with moderation it is a legitimate tactic

That's true, but Smoke's reset is one of the harder resets to pull off.

Your right it is situational, but Smoke in your face is a situation you'll be in for a majority of this MU.

This is the highest level remember....the only whiffed spear would be a baited Ex spear lol

 

[STRYKIE]

I'm a little rusty on the matchup but I'll say it's 4-6, the way the spacing is played in this matchup Smoke isn't often going to get max damage and his turtling isn't really anything that any other character doesn't have to deal with.

The biggest problem is as simple as the smoke bomb itself, Scorpion can't do anything to condition Smoke against just throwing it out since his normals aren't fast enough to punish it, it can't be teleported on reaction, and can't even poke into advantage point blank.

I've said this before, if it was -12 or more on block then I don't see a reason why it wouldn't be 5-5.

 

[Slips]

I'd say this is 6-4 Smoke. Smoke doesn't really keep you out and Scorp can't really keep him out either so it boils down to footsies which Smoke has the advantage. Smoke's footsies are safer and force you to do something stupid in order to get out. Smoke bomb is also great for whiff punishing at footsies range. Scorp has the option of safe footsies with little damage or high risk footsies for big damage. Smoke's reset is bullshit. But so is Scorp's vortex/void so I consider that a wash.

Bottom line is I'd rather play Smoke than Cyrax, Sonya, Cage or Kitana. And if those others are 7-3 matchups, then Smoke must be 6-4.

 

[OutworldKeith]

Slips
I'm sure we can all agree that Cyrax is a MU full of nonsense lol. Even if your outplaying the player you can get caught by 1 net and get boned. I don't even get salty anymore lol.

Smoke is only a slight disadvantage MU, but LBSH that reset is better than Scorp's vortex.

 

[Slips]

Slips
I'm sure we can all agree that Cyrax is a MU full of nonsense lol. Even if your outplaying the player you can get caught by 1 net and get boned. I don't even get salty anymore lol.

Smoke is only a slight disadvantage MU, but LBSH that reset is better than Scorp's vortex.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Its not easy to land and it requires meter so he can't even go for it everytime. He goes for it chances are he doesn't have breaker and the other player has a good chance at making a comeback. So it has backend repercussions.

Scorp's vortex/void requires no meter so he can go for it whenever he needs to and is pretty easy to execute. Its essentially a reset like Smoke's but instead of high execution and requiring meter it requires a correct 50/50 guess. I'd call it a wash.

 

[OutworldKeith]

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Its not easy to land and it requires meter so he can't even go for it everytime. He goes for it chances are he doesn't have breaker and the other player has a good chance at making a comeback. So it has backend repercussions.

Scorp's vortex/void requires no meter so he can go for it whenever he needs to and is pretty easy to execute. Its essentially a reset like Smoke's but instead of high execution and requiring meter it requires a correct 50/50 guess. I'd call it a wash.

Even without his net, he still have plenty of crap to deal with. His command grab shenanigans are just as good if the Cyrax player can mixup. How often will he not have meter to reset? Doesn't he have bomb traps that don't require meter?

Those are all great points, but Smoke's reset isn't punishable correct?

 

[OZZYGUITAR]

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Its not easy to land and it requires meter so he can't even go for it everytime. He goes for it chances are he doesn't have breaker and the other player has a good chance at making a comeback. So it has backend repercussions.

Scorp's vortex/void requires no meter so he can go for it whenever he needs to and is pretty easy to execute. Its essentially a reset like Smoke's but instead of high execution and requiring meter it requires a correct 50/50 guess. I'd call it a wash.

But in a matchup like this, its a battle for momentum, taking a bigger risk can be quite necessary especially if he's already hit a reset and you need that comeback, 1 wrong guess, and even at full health, you can kiss the round goodbye. Imo it has to be 7-3, smoke's damage is ridiculous, he clearly wins in footsies, and wins the zoning battle. Up close its a matter of who has momentum but one false move by scorpion can once again, mean terrible things. Not to mention the only thing he needs to use his meter for is the reset and breaker, and most of the time the only way to force a breaker is by taking a risky mixup leading to full combo. But if you guess wrong, smoke has the meter to execute a reset and take most, if not all of your health away.

 

[Slips]

Even without his net, he still have plenty of crap to deal with. His command grab shenanigans are just as good if the Cyrax player can mixup. How often will he not have meter to reset? Doesn't he have bomb traps that don't require meter?

Those are all great points, but Smoke's reset isn't punishable correct?

I wasn't comparing Scorp's vortex/void with Cyrax's reset obviously.

 

[Slips]

But in a matchup like this, its a battle for momentum, taking a bigger risk can be quite necessary especially if he's already hit a reset and you need that comeback, 1 wrong guess, and even at full health, you can kiss the round goodbye. Imo it has to be 7-3, smoke's damage is ridiculous, he clearly wins in footsies, and wins the zoning battle. Up close its a matter of who has momentum but one false move by scorpion can once again, mean terrible things. Not to mention the only thing he needs to use his meter for is the reset and breaker, and most of the time the only way to force a breaker is by taking a risky mixup leading to full combo. But if you guess wrong, smoke has the meter to execute a reset and take most, if not all of your health away.

Thats all true, but if Smoke is 7-3 then Cyrax is 8-2. Cyrax zoning is way worse than Smoke's, his damage is just as bad if not worse, his footsies are just as good and is more dangerous with command grab up close.

And if Cyrax is 8-2 then what is Sonya, Cage, and Kit?

 

[OutworldKeith]

Thats all true, but if Smoke is 7-3 then Cyrax is 8-2. Cyrax zoning is way worse than Smoke's, his damage is just as bad if not worse, his footsies are just as good and is more dangerous with command grab up close.

And if Cyrax is 8-2 then what is Sonya, Cage, and Kit?

No, I think it's a 6-4 definitely, but if another player felt it was 7-3 they could justify it with Smoke's reset. We are talking about the highest level possible right?

Idk man its very possible that they are that bad. When I used to run casuals with Mr. gruntypants he would always take the set with that Cyrax nonsense.

 

[OutworldKeith]

There's no comparison lol