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Question Tournament Brackets: Who should do them?

NeoRussell

Mortal
@Pig Of The Hut

I certainly had my fair share of bracket screw ups so i ain't perfect. With regards to your system does make sense but all i'm gonna say is that there will always be someone who complains about brackets. So if this is the system you are gonna use, i suggest just do it. If the brackets have issues in the end, it can be fixed. The system you stated should work but you have to stay firm with players who think "this and this is not fair". There will always be that one person that complains but you cannot make everyone happy.

How I do my brackets:
-Check Seeds Of Top Placers In The Last Tourney.
-Check Region to make sure people travelling far does not face each other.
-Show to another Organizer to see if everything is good. If changes are needed, then we do.

If people complain they have Reo first match, that's just the luck of the draw. We've done everything we can to be fair with the brackets and just because this individual gets to play one of the best does not merit a change in bracket unless they fall into the first 3 lines I posted above.

IMO, players complain because they are scared but the whole reason players are in the tournament is to rep well. What better way than to make the Grand Slam Champion sweat. We all seek respect through many things and being given the chance to compete with the Champ should be a good thing. Of course, that's how I look at it. So it's either I complain or play it out and rep as best I can.

If players have concerns, I listen. I try to fair but like I said, there will always be that one (or more) who complains. If I move him, will it affect my bracket. If it does not cause any issues, a change can be done but if the other brackets are already perfect, he has to suck it up and put on a good show.

NeoRussell
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
@Pig Of The Hut

I certainly had my fair share of bracket screw ups so i ain't perfect. With regards to your system does make sense but all i'm gonna say is that there will always be someone who complains about brackets. So if this is the system you are gonna use, i suggest just do it. If the brackets have issues in the end, it can be fixed. The system you stated should work but you have to stay firm with players who think "this and this is not fair". There will always be that one person that complains but you cannot make everyone happy.

How I do my brackets:
-Check Seeds Of Top Placers In The Last Tourney.
-Check Region to make sure people travelling far does not face each other.
-Show to another Organizer to see if everything is good. If changes are needed, then we do.

If people complain they have Reo first match, that's just the luck of the draw. We've done everything we can to be fair with the brackets and just because this individual gets to play one of the best does not merit a change in bracket unless they fall into the first 3 lines I posted above.

IMO, players complain because they are scared but the whole reason players are in the tournament is to rep well. What better way than to make the Grand Slam Champion sweat. We all seek respect through many things and being given the chance to compete with the Champ should be a good thing. Of course, that's how I look at it. So it's either I complain or play it out and rep as best I can.

If players have concerns, I listen. I try to fair but like I said, there will always be that you (or more) who complains. If I move him, will it affect my bracket. If it does not cause any issues, a change can be done but if the other brackets are already perfect, he has to suck it up.

NeoRussell
Russel, you know I have respect, but you never ever did Clarify why at T12, I was moved to a pool with another STB member. That was out of a pool that had no STB members, for seemingly no reason and at the last minute. #Iambutthurt :p
 

NeoRussell

Mortal
Russel, you know I have respect, but you never ever did Clarify why at T12, I was moved to a pool with another STB member. That was out of a pool that had no STB members, for seemingly no reason and at the last minute. #Iambutthurt :p
Add this to one of those screw ups I mentioned. Please let me know next time if this happens again. I'd rather hear it during the tournament and make changes there. I do hope you do not get swayed to not come to any other Majors I do. Lots of things happened during that weekend and this is one of those that I will be better next time. I'll buy you a drink as an apology. When we get drunk after, we can play a drunk jade vs jade match. That should be fun.

NeoRussell
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
Add this to one of those screw ups I mentioned. Please let me know next time if this happens again. I'd rather hear it during the tournament and make changes there. I do hope you do not get swayed to not come to any other Majors I do. Lots of things happened during that weekend and this is one of those that I will be better next time. I'll buy you a drink as an apology. When we get drunk after, we can play a drunk jade vs jade match. That should be fun.

NeoRussell
All I needed to hear brother, and hell no, the Toryuken experience was legendary haha. Sucks that you were so busy tho...next time!
 

ForeverKing

Patreon.com/MK_ForeverKing
i say make the bracket random and fuck seeding people thats the only true way to over come this issue
But when you do a bracket random, there comes the issue with what if it just so happened that accidently alot of good players were bunched up together on one side of the bracket, and bunch of not so good players on the other side? Like for example if CDjr and REO fought eachother the very first round, and CDjr sent REO to losers' bracket and Perfect Legend and Pig fight eachother first round, and Pig sends PL to loser's bracket. Than for the very first round in loser's bracket you will have REO and Perfect Legend fighting vs eachother and the loser of this match will be eliminated from the tournament 0-2? And some random not so good people on the other side of the bracket make into to top 8 because their side of the bracket was easy, when in actuality PL or REO would destroy that person?

That wouldn't really be fair at all
 

YOMI DJT

LIn Kuei Champion
make brakets where players who play all the time don't play

make where players who have never fought each other play

mix it up each tourny

It's crazy but every major where all the regions are there west coast is always knocking each other out.

or some other region fighting their own.

mix it the fuck up everytime.

tournaments are a lot more if you fight players you've never fought.

nobody has the advantage if you've never fought

why do we always got to wait till casuals to fight somebody we've never fought

anyways again make it better for regions usually i always fight my bro or somebody from the west coast every huge major i go to it's weird like wtf?

i'm going to say it again make the bracket where it is lots of diff players that have never fought.

nobody wants to watch the same players fight every tourny.

how many players has reo fought from the west coast in tourny not much right?

Mix this shit!

If top players have to fight in the first round then oh well just not all top players on one side of the bracket that wouldn't make sense.

make it as hard as possible for every player to get through every round. it's hard to do that but i think it can be done.

i'm interested in what pig and crimsonshadow are doing with their idea very interesting :cool:

of course i'm always going to fight wc in wc locals in majors but in a different region away from the west I shouldn't have to fight my bro or tyrant etc.

one more time diff regions need to play each other.

but its tournament it is what it is.

I'm playing to win like everybody else is.

If the brackets get dirty then whatever i'm cool with whatever is done.

One last thing........................

DEEEEEEEE JAAAAAAAAY TEEEEEEE!!!
MALOC!! HARA KIRI!!
me vs pig solid 5-5
vegas vs pl 8-2 mu dammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmn #kappa:):D:cool:
 

CurlyW

Noob
Oy, these are some long threads.

Anyway, I'm here because Dizzy asked me to chime in on the bracket issue. I'll try not to go too in-depth on how I make brackets since Dizzy did a pretty good summary already in this post. But briefly, my preferred method for making brackets for larger tournaments is this:

1. Identify the people considered to be "top" seeds, ideally about 6%-13% of the total entrants (e.g. 4-8 people for 64 entrants).
2. Identify the people considered to be "second" seeds, again about 6%-13% of the total entrants.
3. Enter the seeds into the bracket/pools so that all seeds are spread apart from each other and each pool or bracket section has equal numbers of top and second seeds. Account for regional seeding if necessary.
4. Randomize all other entrants into the bracket, obeying regional seeding.

When it comes to seeding, however, one does not need to be super-precise about number of seeds and how to order them. After all, any ranking system is pretty much just going to be an estimate. Sometimes there's a definite 1 and 2 seeds among the top players, in which case they can certainly be separated in the bracket. There need not be hard numbers of people in each tier of seeds either. At a recent tournament I ran, there was a clearly defined top 3, then a group of 5 players that were a level below. Rather than pick the "best" player from among the 5 second-tier seeds to promote to the top level, I just made the bracket so that one quarter of the bracket had two randomly-chosen second seeds, whereas the other three sections of the bracket had one top seed and one second seed.

Even when there are ranking systems in place that could ostensibly be used for seeding (like the MK rankings), I would not strictly adhere to them, as there is always a large amount of variation and fluctuation. For example, somebody may be ranked very low, but if that person always seems to get the 1 seed first round every tournament, then they haven't faced a sufficient variety of competition to determine their true skill level.

However, that doesn't mean you can't use them at all. In fact, if you would like to use them for tournament purposes, I would recommend using the method of tournament making used on the professional tennis tours (ATP and WTA). The singles competitions the major tennis tournaments have 128 entrants, and each tour has ranking lists that go far beyond that number. However, only the top 32 in the rankings are seeded, with the rest of the players randomized. The 33rd person in the rankings could just as easily get Roger Federer first round as he could the 128th-best player. Moreover, only the 1st and 2nd seeds have hard positions in the bracket. The 3 and 4 seeds are guaranteed not to meet the top 2 until the semis at the earliest. However, it is randomly determined whether the 4 seed will be in the 1-seed's half or in the 2-seed's half (with 3 going in the other half). Then the 5-8 seeds are randomly assigned to each quarter of the bracket, then the 9-12 seeds, and so on. Had seeds held to form in the most recent tennis major (the US Open), the quarterfinals would have been, from top to bottom, 1 vs. 6, 3 vs. 5, 4 vs. 8, and 2 vs. 7.

The key to making fair brackets, however, is randomness. If no human purposely makes the bracket (i.e. a computer randomizes it or names are drawn out of a hat), then the amount of say they have in its structure is drastically reduced--even if they picked the seeds. I used to use a series of randomly-generated numbers to make my brackets. I've since written a program that randomly assigns players to a bracket (while accounting for skill and regional seeding). It is difficult to claim such unbias if no randomization method is used. One may try to assign things arbitrarily, but "arbitrary" implies that a human still is aware of the affect of their seemingly-random decisions. Something that is truly random should have no human involvement whatsoever. As Dizzy said, it is even more ideal if the person making the bracket is not taking part in the tournament, but I understand that this may not always be possible to achieve. If the assignment of entrants is randomized, any such bias is drastically mitigated. (Though if for some reason no options for randomization are available, then yes, the job of making a bracket should be given to a person with as little connection to the tournament and scene as possible as they might provide the best arbitrarily-made bracket.)

Anyway, sorry for being long-winded and rambling (I did write this at 3:30 am), but that's my take on how brackets should be done. Feel free to ask any questions. I may not get back to you with an answer immediately as I don't check this site that frequently, but I will check back a couple times this week.
 

Krayzie

Co-founder
Administrator
Founder
In SoCal, Brian Compton runs the brackets. He doesnt play, knows the game, the players, and the community.

Everyone needs a Brian Compton.

Want to be a part of a well ran major? Come to SCR in Jan.

Enough said...
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Oy, these are some long threads.

Even when there are ranking systems in place that could ostensibly be used for seeding (like the MK rankings), I would not strictly adhere to them, as there is always a large amount of variation and fluctuation. For example, somebody may be ranked very low, but if that person always seems to get the 1 seed first round every tournament, then they haven't faced a sufficient variety of competition to determine their true skill level.

However, that doesn't mean you can't use them at all. In fact, if you would like to use them for tournament purposes, I would recommend using the method of tournament making used on the professional tennis tours (ATP and WTA).

The key to making fair brackets, however, is randomness. If no human purposely makes the bracket (i.e. a computer randomizes it or names are drawn out of a hat), then the amount of say they have in its structure is drastically reduced--even if they picked the seeds. I used to use a series of randomly-generated numbers to make my brackets. I've since written a program that randomly assigns players to a bracket (while accounting for skill and regional seeding). It is difficult to claim such unbias if no randomization method is used. One may try to assign things arbitrarily, but "arbitrary" implies that a human still is aware of the affect of their seemingly-random decisions. Something that is truly random should have no human involvement whatsoever. As Dizzy said, it is even more ideal if the person making the bracket is not taking part in the tournament, but I understand that this may not always be possible to achieve. If the assignment of entrants is randomized, any such bias is drastically mitigated. (Though if for some reason no options for randomization are available, then yes, the job of making a bracket should be given to a person with as little connection to the tournament and scene as possible as they might provide the best arbitrarily-made bracket.)
This is essentially what we've been working on, except that using ELO can eliminate the subjective part of tennis rankings, so that everything is based off of actual results.

And you're not rambling.. You're on the money :)
 

EGP Wonder_Chef

Official Quan Chi Nerf Demander™
In case you guys didn't know, there is an automated system for seeding within most TO programs.

It also allows you to seed through multiple factors (at least on Tio)
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
In case you guys didn't know, there is an automated system for seeding within most TO programs.

It also allows you to seed through multiple factors (at least on Tio)
Yup, but in order to have good automatic seeding you need to be aware of the factors -- which means you need a complete set of data on what's going on. There's no magic in it.
 

ShinBlanka

Dojo Trainee
But this is how I envision this working. 1. We use Challonge. I create the bracket, TO's get login access and can update the bracket as the tournament goes on. Community gets to see the bracket at every tournament, and TO's don't have to worry about the mess of creating them the day of the tournament.

This of course all hinges on pre reg becoming the standard.
yes please pre reg so we have a list weeks before the event
then proper seeding can happen