Well... I didn't meant turning the run bar into a limited for everything, I just wanted to propose a way to limit certain moves that doesn't hit, like Raiden's teleport (that run bar system was something I'm not sure about, I agree it is sort of awkward, it was just an idea).
OK, Raiden's teleport
is already limited by time between usage. You can't just spam it and have it happen constantly, but perhaps the time between uses could be increased slightly, which I'm not against. But really, his teleport, in a game with Run and not to mention the control of UMK3, makes it much less effective than it was MKII.
But there're other ways I proposed to limit moves.
Limiting a move in a way that you could do it once per kombo, no matter if it's at the beginning of after 10 hits wouldn't be for Sub-Zero's Ice Blast. He should have an "after certain number of hits limit" for his freezing abilities.
A lot of moves
already have this. Most projectiles are like this, and in many cases, some of the more abusable ones are limited like Kitana's fan throw. The time between usages is so much that it's incredibly difficult to ever see a combo with two fans. Most projectiles cause enough recovery time that even if you could spam them in a combo due to not having a usage limit, you can't if you wanted to. Some cases are Liu Kang and Kabal's air fireballs, that can use used multiple times in the corner. For Liu Kang, his damage after the pop up is very low, so it's extremely hard to break 50% in the corner with him, but with Kabal, they didn't do the same thing, and 70%+ is very possible. That's something that would need to be fixed and you could drop Kabal's corner damage 10% without ruining the rest of his Fireball properties by lowering the damage of the Fireball itself.
If you read my previous post, you'll see I proposed different ways of limiting moves, some would be limited one way, some another way.
What I don't see like a good idea at all is having Ermac's Telekinetic slam, then doing 4 more hits and having the chance to do it again. That's a system that allows infinites, same for Stryker's gun.
That
already happens in the game. Stryker's Riot Gun should be limited better, we all agree, because he shouldn't be able to infinite off it. Ermac's TKS is limited in a proper way, except if you avoid moves that cause damage protection, you can score 100% or more within the rules of the move. You can't do the TKS forever just by spacing it out with 3 or 4 hits to satisfy the timer (because it's not hits, it's time that dictates the use), because it has a total move usage limit. The best way to solve this would be to make it cause damage protection, reducing all his current non DPed combos to about half, which is still more than acceptable. Again, the TKS 100% combos
are not infinites, but that doesn't mean they should do 100%.
True, it encourages players to explore the game and search for ways to break it and do longer juggles, but I'm aiming to balance here.
I don't know about that. I can tell you based on MK theory what would happen with probably any limitation you impose. UMK3 has the best, and most versatile limitation of all the 2D MK games. There's no disputing that.
So, let's say you could have the kombo interrupting ability (with special moves) that MK4 featured... and let's say Scorpion has the kind of limit I proposed, the one special anytime during a kombo. It is a very simple feature that allows several options and it's easy to deal with in the mind of players. Still the options wouldn't be that crazy:
- DK (deep kick) / teleport / forward teleport / spear / kombo
- B+HK (air opponent) / teleport / spear / kombo / forward teleport (if we decide it to be possible in the game) / some hits against the wall / air throw
- kombo + spear to interrupt / kombo (even if he had a pop up kombo, without the spear the opponent would fall maximum after 5 hits).
What you are saying is being able to do a special move during an autocombo. Something like Nightwolf's Axe is
a direct example of this, and Raiden's Superman in MKT. They built those things into the combos, but this should not be a universal property. For many moves there's next to no practical use for it because half the time you don't want to do a naked special move on the ground if you want to combo after it and it would serve to prematurely terminate a combo for something flashy. Someone like Mileena would benefit by maybe being able to combo her Roll, but why would you do that? You'd have to change the already instated limitation properties of her Roll on top of that. This gets really messy.
Something on those lines, even giving this feature to Sub-Zero would be about the same. It seems like you are happier with stuffs like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-21t84_290k
Well no, you clearly don't understand the purpose of those videos. 99% of what you see isn't even practical to use in a match and no one would even try it. It's a showcase of the most scrutinized elements of the gameplay, completely dissected and demonstrated to show what has been discovered on the most minute level. Yes, it is ridiculous that this stuff exists, but it's because it's so trite and so much effort has gone into finding it.
Much much worse exists in almost every other fghting game that has achieve popularity.
I would call "mindboggling" to a person who defend a system like that. Please do not get offended, but I think is not because anyone here is stupid or anything... I think all the years of playing UMK3, the tourneys, the nostalgic factor have made UMK3 and all it represents something sacred.
UMK3 is the most competitive and legitimate MK
ever made, thus far. This is an inarguable fact of mechanics and the test of time.
I'm not really talking about balancing UMK3, neither improving it. I'm saying something entirelly different. If we are willing to take the time to do a game, why stopping at improving a 15 years old game? We could do something new. So, would it be horrible if he doesn't respect some parameters of UMK3 that would make it unbalanced and broken?
We don't want a "new" MK game. This thread was about hacking SF3 and turned into a "what if we hacked UMK3" not "what if we made a new MK game and did it with crappy MUGEN." You're not going to make some revolutionary, balanced system utilizing the 15 year old sprites from the 15 year old game with the 15 year old engine you're complaining about. You're going to, and have, destroyed much of what was good about it. The players here can help your team make a
very fun to play MK game that all of your extra stuff can surround.
Would it hurt of the limit system is somehow different? I want UMK3 gameplay as far as the kollision boxes, quick punches, running system and other stuff, like the way wall kombos work (excepting for crouch kicks infinites and broken stuffs like that), but I'm not intending to recreate everything UMK3 was.
There are a great many limitation methods in the 2D MK games. In MK1 it was mostly based on really bad frame data and recovery time, and adding in stumbling for the characters when they got too many hits. The problem with "too many hits" is it limits things based on an entirety, and not piece by piece. That's lazy. MKII was less lazy. They made things combo a bit better, and if you notice, there's not a whole lot of limitations to moves. Again, if you juggled too many hits, you bounced off your opponent.
Between MK3 and UMK3 they ironed out some more of the broken stuff from MK1 and MKII, they removed this bounce off option, but they still included (or added) some semi-universal concepts like the "ice skate" push back in the corner, which is logical because it only pertains to very specific juggle moves that would others be infinites. This existed in MKII as well, in a more limited extent, replacing the bounce/stumble but this animation is cancelable. This in effect limits a handful of similarly behaving moves. It's not like I get pushed back after I finish a combo with a fireball in the corner, I can't infinite off that fireball. I get pushed back off a HP performed after any other hit. They'd have to change the property of HP for every situation of the game to not have to use the pushback in the corner. The bounce off property was added back to MK4 and what happened? Horrendous. "My combo stops because I did 42%? I'm
too good for the engine? To Hell with this."
My vision is to take everything that was good in most of the MK games if it's possible to have it armonically, have a very nice gameplay and a lot of options. I want the game to be balanced, but it have to has its own identity.
I dunno man, so far these games look like they have no identity. They are often a jumble of the worst, and least necessary aspects of the games.
So, when I said UMK3 gameplay I didn't meant something close to a clone game with more moves and some fixes. I meant something new that could retain the best of UMK3.
Canceling Kung Lao's dive kick after his spin would make no sense to me. I would look cheap... I would prefer limiting that move in some way.
You mean canceling his JK into the Dive Kick, and missing it, so you can land and do a HP. This does create an infinite and it should be dealt with, by disabling the Spin after one use (or better 1 hit) so once he reaches the corner, he can't continue. If he could do the Spin at any time, but only once, he could still manage to get over 100% with the right timing, in and out of the corner, even though it would be very difficult.
To me, the most important factor in balancing juggles is the damage reducing system. The more hits a juggle has, the less damage it cause. That, combined with an accurate testing and canges in limits would cause everyone to get around the same damage in juggles no matter what.
It depends on the setups for the juggles, and what moves cause DP. Not everything should cause DP. Too low damage isn't always a good thing. For example, Ermac's TKS does not cause it, and it is a coincidence that you can perform enough hits to achieve 100% with him and still be within the limits of the TKS. If I do, HK, LP, JK, TP, TKS, I can't do the TKS anymore in that combo. That's how it works. If I somehow put 4 hits after that TKS, I can't do it again. Make the TKS do DP, don't even change the rules for the move usage, and it will be balanced.
The problem once more, is the points of view. You want to play UMK3 with fixes, and I'm talking about something entirely different. If you can open your mind and imagine you're discussing with Ed Boon for example about creating MK9, you'll have to forget about fixing UMK3, and focus on new gameplay ideas, of course using good stuff from previous MK games, but your view would be other.
No way. It's not even remotely close to that at all, I'd have to be high hallucinogens that because it's so far off. You have to fully understand the 2D games before you can make a new game based on them.
For one, there're not two options in here... UMK3 is not being ripped, nobody is doing that, perhaps it cannot be done, if someone could the stuffs you could chance would be minimal and you would end unsatisfied anyways. I have a real proposal wich is NOT UMK3, it is a new game because UMK3 is way too OLD and I wont be happy to see another 20 videos on internet featuring almost the same stuffs you already found in UMK3 with some minor changes. That would be boring as hell. I want to see combo videos with a whole branch of new and very different juggles, and no infinites or 100% ones.
No one wants to play a game using the 2D sprites that doesn't play like a 2D MK.
