Mortal Kombat (2011) Matchup Chart

[THTB]

Not really, because Sub can just block the dive kick and watch Cyber Sub bounce back into the clone.

This is 6/4 in Sub's favor

Of course, but if it's not high enough and Sub is trying to do something, then he gets tagged. If he doesn't do anything, then CSZ can go for bombs or teleport around (unless he's in the corner).

 

[The_Riddler]

Of course, but if it's not high enough and Sub is trying to do something, then he gets tagged. If he doesn't do anything, then CSZ can go for bombs or teleport around (unless he's in the corner).

I see what you mean, but if Sub is just relaxing behind a clone, then doing a teleport won't help at all because it's easily punishable. Throwing bombs would work in getting Sub to move, but at the end of the day the bombs are slow to come out and easy to react to.

 

[CY MasterHavik]

Getting in... having EX dash helps greatly, but all is stuffed/avoided by simply ducking. Once Jax has you in the corner and you are not Kung Lao or Raiden, you are in trouble.

Yeah. I have been doing nothing working on ways to get people into the corner with Jax. I wish Jax had a low throw like Sheeva. That would make all those duckers lunch for me. BTW, it's SlyCopper23 from youtube if you haven't guess it or notice it yet.

 

[TheChad_87]

Yeah. I have been doing nothing working on ways to get people into the corner with Jax. I wish Jax had a low throw like Sheeva. That would make all those duckers lunch for me. BTW, it's SlyCopper23 from youtube if you haven't guess it or notice it yet.

And ground pound hasn't proven useful in the scenario you're describing? If they try something, you can dash cancel in and 1, 2, Dash Punch.

 

[CY MasterHavik]

And ground pound hasn't proven useful in the scenario you're describing? If they try something, you can dash cancel in and 1, 2, Dash Punch.

That's actually what I do. It sucks Ground pound is still useless besides the cancel. In other words ground pound hasn't been that useful as you put it sir.

 

[MKK hanzo]

Sub has to get a clone with a high hitbox to cut off divekicks completely.

Or the EX version NOT dissapearing if Subby is hit!

 

[Mechacide]

You can walk beyond the clone to throw an iceball, and then walk back behind it again... Obviously, he can divekick you, but that's where you can dash back and forth around your clone for mindgames.

That doesn't make sense, because the CSZ can just react to what you're doing. If you're behind your Clone throwing ice, he can teleport. If you're in front of your Clone throwing ice, he can Divekick. Because of this, I don't see how Sub has the advantage from range, and I feel like CSZ has the advantage on the inside because of his better pressure strings. Not to mention CSZ has insane combo dmg and some nice bomb resets.

 

[The_Riddler]

That doesn't make sense, because the CSZ can just react to what you're doing. If you're behind your Clone throwing ice, he can teleport. If you're in front of your Clone throwing ice, he can Divekick. Because of this, I don't see how Sub has the advantage from range, and I feel like CSZ has the advantage on the inside because of his better pressure strings. Not to mention CSZ has insane combo dmg and some nice bomb resets.

A lot of the time, teleport ends up being too slow to be effective.

 

[Mechacide]

A lot of the time, teleport ends up being too slow to be effective.

Really? Even if he didn't get there in time to fully punish Sub, he'd still be able to start up his pressure, right?

 

[shoshinsha]

So looking at this, I have to ask: is Kabal truly the only character with ZERO bad matchups? I guess I'm not terribly shocked given his tool set, but I am a bit surprised that he surpasses even the hat tier in that regard (if not in actual tier placement).

 

[THTB]

Kabal doesn't have unfavorable matchups, but his numbers aren't the best.

 

[shura30]

So looking at this, I have to ask: is Kabal truly the only character with ZERO bad matchups? I guess I'm not terribly shocked given his tool set, but I am a bit surprised that he surpasses even the hat tier in that regard (if not in actual tier placement).

kabal has tools to deal with each situation
but i think it's too error prone and the damage scaling after the spin is just retarded
i'm not screaming buff, it's a very well balanced character and fine as it is, others are overpowered and overdamaging

having the low buzzsaw is a blessing though

Kabal doesn't have unfavorable matchups, but his numbers aren't the best.

that means you have to fight each match instead of relying on cheap tactics or great damage

 

[M2Dave]

Kabal is the second best character in the game in my opinion. He does not dominate like Kung Lao because he does not have a bull shit special move like the spin. Everybody is already familiar with Kabal's solid offensive game, but most people are not aware of his zoning game which is one of the best.

Buzzsaw
- 14-15 frame start up
- only projectile in the game that has a couple of active frames behind Kabal. Can hit every teleport
- difficult to punish with some teleports (i.e., Sektor's d,f+4) because of Kabal's weird animation
- Nightwolf and Kenshi can only absorb and not reflect the Buzzsaw

Aerial Gas Blast
- 15 frame start up and great recovery
- 9% of damage
- +10~15 on hit (standing opponents). Incoming Buzzsaw / Gas Blast must be blocked
- gives free Nomad Dashes (aerial opponents)

 

[THTB]

Kung Lao doesn't come close to dominating because of the spin...

I think Kabal's matchups will become more and more dominant, but I do think disadvantages are gonna arise.

 

[The_Riddler]

Really? Even if he didn't get there in time to fully punish Sub, he'd still be able to start up his pressure, right?

I guess if we are being technical, then the answer is yes. For example, if you input your teleport within the first 1-2 frames of Ice Blast then you can combo. If done within the first 4 frames or so, you can pressure. Sometimes it's harder than it might seem to react that quickly, especially when teleport is not a commonly used tool to begin with.

I understand your point though.

 

[M2Dave]

Kung Lao doesn't come close to dominating because of the spin...

A 6 frame anti air special attack that launches and stuffs cross ups on reaction is actually a big deal in a fairly rush oriented game. It also makes a great punishing tool.

Give the spin to Quan Chi and he'll be high mid tier at worst.

 

[babalook]

can someone explain how lui kang is not a bad matchup for kabal it's gotta be 6:4 lui kang.

 

[salvificblood]

That doesn't make sense, because the CSZ can just react to what you're doing. If you're behind your Clone throwing ice, he can teleport. If you're in front of your Clone throwing ice, he can Divekick. Because of this, I don't see how Sub has the advantage from range, and I feel like CSZ has the advantage on the inside because of his better pressure strings. Not to mention CSZ has insane combo dmg and some nice bomb resets.

Not really because as Riddler says, Cyber Sub's teleport is too slow. A lot of the time, you can stand right up against your clone and throw iceballs because if he teleports into a block string, he'll block string right into the clone... It's the same trick you can use against Raiden, only, you have longer to adjust to the teleport with Cyber Sub than Raiden. It's tough to divekick on reaction to an iceball from midscreen distance because that iceball can also turn out to be an ex freeze... Don't forget, you want to advance beyond your clone just to apply pressure for your eventual corner rape. Sub destroys CSZ once he gets him close to the corner.

 

[Mechacide]

Not really because as Riddler says, Cyber Sub's teleport is too slow. A lot of the time, you can stand right up against your clone and throw iceballs because if he teleports into a block string, he'll block string right into the clone... It's the same trick you can use against Raiden, only, you have longer to adjust to the teleport with Cyber Sub than Raiden. It's tough to divekick on reaction to an iceball from midscreen distance because that iceball can also turn out to be an ex freeze... Don't forget, you want to advance beyond your clone just to apply pressure for your eventual corner rape. Sub destroys CSZ once he gets him close to the corner.

I disagree, because CSZ can use that parry just once to make Sub think twice about pressuring him. And CSZ has his own decent corner-pressure. Besides, CSZ doesn't have to go for block-strings after teleporting, he can always throw, or low, or mix up in other ways.

It's at least 5-5 in my opinion.

 

[Raidenwins]

So...

I think...

1. Kung Lao
2. Reptile
3. Raiden
4. Cyrax
5. Nightwolf

...is the top 5 of this game and the match up chart will eventually support that.

Does anybody else disagree? I know I'll hear it again about Nightwolf. LOL.

dave,

Please elaborate on why you think Reptile is over Raiden.

 

[The_Riddler]

I disagree, because CSZ can use that parry just once to make Sub think twice about pressuring him. And CSZ has his own decent corner-pressure. Besides, CSZ doesn't have to go for block-strings after teleporting, he can always throw, or low, or mix up in other ways.

It's at least 5-5 in my opinion.

Parry can be baited fairly easily, so Sub getting hit with a Parry isn't necessarily a bad thing. After getting hit by it once, Sub can show pressure and bait it and go into full combo.

And as far as teleport goes, I still think you're over-estimating its speed. In all practicality, it is an anticipatory punishing move, not a reactionary one, and it's most definitely not a mobility tool. If you hesitate for even a split second, chances are Sub's Ice Blast will freeze before Cyber Sub can even get off screen.

Also, Cyber Sub is one of the few characters that has no consistent way to escape Sub's corner pressure. Teleporting is probably the best option, if he can actually get off screen, because most likely he will only be punished with a poke or a smaller combo (he is in an airborne state when appearing on the other side). Cyber Sub possesses no armored moves outside of X-Ray, so a well-placed clone into 22 pressure literally locks him down. So, let's recap. When trapped in the corner: Cyber Sub can use 3 bars of meter (if he can even get into the air to perform X-Ray in the first place) or he can eat about 23% (if the Sub player properly does 224~Slide or something of the like).

I see no instance in which this is 5-5. Among two equally skilled players, the Sub-Zero will win the majority of matches. In my opinion, it's 6-4.

 

[M2Dave]

dave,

Please elaborate on why you think Reptile is over Raiden.

My new tier list is the following.

Upper Top Tier: Kung Lao
Top Tier: Cyrax, Kabal, Raiden, Reptile (in no particular order)

I am not sure how many bad match ups Raiden has. I had originally put Reptile above Raiden because I think that Reptile beats him 6:4. Reptile's elbow dash blows through each hit of b+3,1,2 and the last hit of 3,3,4. You cannot exclude any hit to bait the elbow dash because each is punishable by the elbow dash anyway. Also, if Raiden cancels into teleport after any hit, the elbow dash turns into standing 2 which Raiden must block. The only way Raiden can punish the elbow dash is by canceling into d,f+2 which is horribly punishable on block or by doing X-Ray which is a waste of meter. Raiden has to stick to f+2,4 which builds less meter than his other strings do. Of course, because Kano's up ball has been toned down, the elbow dash is by far the best teleport punisher now. Raiden's block traps do not work on Reptile either. Overall, Raiden's strings are not very good and Reptile exposes them more so than any other character.

Furthermore, I am not yet sold on Raiden going even with Kung Lao and Johnny Cage until I see these match ups being played by high level players. Perhaps we may see Perfect Legend (Kung Lao) vs. JOP (Raiden) later on.

 

[Fleishwalker]

Where do you think the DLC characters fit in these ranks? I think rain will be high and the others will be upper-middle.

 

[M2Dave]

Where do you think the DLC characters fit in these ranks? I think rain will be high and the others will be upper-middle.

In my opinion, Kenshi is the most balanced and versatile out of the three DLC characters. Skarlet is the most unbalanced in the sense that she beats any character who has no answer for the daggers but probably loses to any character who has anti-dagger tools. Rain is a rush oriented character that relies on super kick cancels. I'm the least impressed with Rain. He has poor zoning and his rushdown doesn't make up for it. His teleport seems to be a little safer than Cyber Sub Zero's teleport which is still fairly unsafe of course. If you want to use an all-rushdown, no-zoning character, you may as well use Johnny Cage. I think Kenshi and Skarlet are S tier characters while Rain appears more of an A+ (high mid tier) character to me.

I was going to post some Skarlet match ups now that all DLC characters are legal at tournaments, but I suggest we halt the match up project until the promised patch is released.

 

[Subby]

In my opinion, Kenshi is the most balanced and versatile out of the three DLC characters. Skarlet is the most unbalanced in the sense that she beats any character who has no answer for the daggers but probably loses to any character who has anti-dagger tools. Rain is a rush oriented character that relies on super kick cancels. I'm the least impressed with Rain. He has poor zoning and his rushdown doesn't make up for it. His teleport seems to be a little safer than Cyber Sub Zero's teleport which is still fairly unsafe of course. If you want to use an all-rushdown, no-zoning character, you may as well use Johnny Cage. I think Kenshi and Skarlet are S tier characters while Rain appears more of an A+ (high mid tier) character to me.

I was going to post some Skarlet match ups now that all DLC characters are legal at tournaments, but I suggest we halt the match up project until the promised patch is released.

Bad zoning? Have you been using lightning?