General/Other Changes that should have happened.

[UsedForGlue]

Now that there is allot of talk about changes to the game that would be nice, I thought I would throw in my two cents on what CSZ should have got, now that it won't affect anything as another patch is not likly, it may never even happen.

I tried to call all the attention to CSZ when the patches were being worked on, but nothing came of it, and as of right now, there is no ulterior motive to posting my thoughts on what CSZ should have got, as a patch is going to happen, none of this will ever get changed, but if NRS ever asked the character specialist for help (which they won't) and they should do, here is what I would have recommened.

It's all very balanced, well thought out of a long period of time, and fair.

The video addresses the armour issue that was going to be a problem with CSZ, as you couldn't armour his Dive Kick or Ice beam, one would be OP and the other would be stupid, and the Slide wouldn't serve a purpose as is.

The second is about the bombs that do not freeze, and solutions for them to stop U4 bomb resets, which are only escapable through wake up attacks, or you will eat massive damage everytime you get knocked down after a combo.

The third video is why the dive kicks should not have effected the reasons for limiting CSZ's other aspects of his game, D1, Uppercut, D3, D4, , Teleport, no armour move, no advantage after dive kick hits, ice ball having slow recovery and start up etc, all of this was down to ''The Price of Dive kicks'' Yet sonya blade stands in the way of this being a valid argument, considering she has an excellent D1, Uppercut, D3, D4, , Armour cartwheel, Combo-able dive kicks!!, excellent projectile...go figure.

ARMOUR PROBLEM

BOMBS THAT DON'T FREEZE - RESET FIXED

''THE PRICE OF DIVE KICKS''

Thanks.

 

[1man3letters]

thanks for putting these out glue, made for some good watching, hopefully those who are meant to see it do.
found the bomb video the most interesting out of the 3,with the way things were layed on in that,there little room to try argue against it.
thanks for near runing my keyboard also,spat out my tea when u broke out sonya in the price of dive kicks vid,its all true though.
you should talk to lar about her,he fucking hates her,"why does this bitch have everything!"

 

[Qwark28]

thanks for putting these out glue, made for some good watching, hopefully those who are meant to see it do.
found the bomb video the most interesting out of the 3,with the way things were layed on in that,there little room to try argue against it.
thanks for near runing my keyboard also,spat out my tea when u broke out sonya in the price of dive kicks vid,its all true though.
you should talk to lar about her,he fucking hates her,"why does this bitch have everything!"

real men drink raw eggs every single day.

 

[Crathen]

Couldn't agree more , CSZ could have been a greatly designed character and instead he gets shaft for giving him a parry wich nets you almost nothing and a divekick wich on hit doesn't give him anything other than 7% damage while still being punishable on block and EX just doing a little more damage with an overhead in it ALSO unlike KL his divekick doesnt recover instantly ( also KL EX divekick grants him a full combo ) and he's supposed to be a mobile / pressuring character.
Shitty pokes don't make up for having a parry and compairing him to Sonya is realizing how much of badly designed he is , i really enjoyed him when i first started to play the game but your videos explain what's wrong with him perfectly , here's hoping for NRS to understand this.

 

[M2Dave]

Cyber Sub Zero's gameplay design has been botched. No doubt. But Sonya's dive kick and Cyber Sub's dive kick cannot be compared. Cyber Sub can dive kick grounded fireballs almost half a screen away on reaction. That is why he still performs well versus non-aerial fireball characters. Sonya's dive kick is mostly used in footsies to punish whiffed pokes. Cyber Sub's dive kick is not terrible. The rest of his tools are, though.

 

[Crathen]

But Sonya's dive kick and Cyber Sub's dive kick cannot be compared. Cyber Sub can dive kick grounded fireballs almost half a screen away on reaction. That is why he still performs well versus non-aerial fireball characters. Sonya's dive kick is mostly used in footsies to punish whiffed pokes.

I know that the DKs can't be compared for their uses , they are used differently ofc , it's the reward difference , personally i think CSZ Dks should at least give a chance to get in ( wheter it be more advantage on hit , less pushback or both ) while still dealing 7% damage , wouldnt you agree that his DK is the worst in the game compared to KL and Sonya ones?

 

[M2Dave]

I know that the DKs can't be compared for their uses , they are used differently ofc , it's the reward difference , personally i think CSZ Dks should at least give a chance to get in ( wheter it be more advantage on hit , less pushback or both ) while still dealing 7% damage , wouldnt you agree that his DK is the worst in the game compared to KL and Sonya ones?

Against Freddy or Kano, for example, I would take Cyber Sub's dive kick over Sonya's dive kick. The far dive kick shuts down their projectiles effectively. Why do you think Cyber Sub goes 5:5 versus Freddy, yet Sonya loses 6:4 to him? Far dive kicks.

UsedForGlue's "comparison" video is very misleading because it does not take the far dive kick, which is very good versus grounded projectiles, into account.

I am not arguing that Cyber Sub's pokes are atrocious. They obviously are. But let me get this straight: you guys want a special move that hits almost half a screen away and punishes all grounded projectiles on reaction in this game to lead to free offense afterwards?

Again, the character's problem is not the dive kick. It is the normals.

 

[PND_Ketchup]

Hence why the video exists. His normals are terrible because he has a divekick, that's the argument that has been made. Sonya has amazing normals and a 45% ms cancelable divekick that can also punish projectiles. Not from as far away obviously, but you get my point.

I wouldn't say Glue was misleading anyone, his argument is completely valid IMO.

 

[salvificblood]

Cyber Sub Zero's gameplay design has been botched. No doubt. But Sonya's dive kick and Cyber Sub's dive kick cannot be compared. Cyber Sub can dive kick grounded fireballs almost half a screen away on reaction. That is why he still performs well versus non-aerial fireball characters. Sonya's dive kick is mostly used in footsies to punish whiffed pokes. Cyber Sub's dive kick is not terrible. The rest of his tools are, though.

You would have a point except you've forgotten the fact Cyber Sub's close divekick is used in the exact same way as Sonya's. You've only explained the far divekick. You cannot just throw far divekicks out, either. It has its place in his gameplay, and the enhanced version is very nice but it's not enough to justify him having a garbage everything else.

 

[Crathen]

Against Freddy or Kano, for example, I would take Cyber Sub's dive kick over Sonya's dive kick. The far dive kick shuts down their projectiles effectively. Why do you think Cyber Sub goes 5:5 versus Freddy, yet Sonya loses 6:4 to him? Far dive kicks.

UsedForGlue's "comparison" video is very misleading because it does not take the far dive kick, which is very good versus grounded projectiles, into account.

I am not arguing that Cyber Sub's pokes are atrocious. They obviously are. But let me get this straight: you guys want a special move that hits almost half a screen away and punishes all grounded projectiles on reaction in this game to lead to free offense afterwards?

Again, the character's problem is not the dive kick. It is the normals.

That's the point , im not even trying to argue the different uses of the DKs , i got carried away saying DK should do this and that , buffing his far DK wouldn't help his bad MU ( actually it would give him a great advantage against characters trying to zone him with grounded projectiles ) , what im trying to say is that the current advantages his DKs give him do not compensate his lack of good normals / armor and imo the comparison is perfectly fine.

 

[Rathalos]

I always got the impression CSZ was the redheaded step child of the game, no one on the dev team seems to give much of a shit about him. Makes me wonder if he will even be in the sequel.

Its a shame, he is a pretty interesting character and fun to play as.

 

[M2Dave]

Hence why the video exists. His normals are terrible because he has a divekick, that's the argument that has been made. Sonya has amazing normals and a 45% ms cancelable divekick that can also punish projectiles. Not from as far away obviously, but you get my point.

I wouldn't say Glue was misleading anyone, his argument is completely valid IMO.

Sonya can JP + combo from the same range that the dive kick hits. Generally speaking, the dive kick is rarely used to punish projectiles because of its poor range. Cyber Sub's dive kick punishes projectiles from almost half a screen away. There is no comparison in terms of dealing with projectiles.

 

[THTB]

Really, the divekicks should have a higher reward. Regular divekicks should do 10%, and EX divekicks should be extremely high in hit advantage. You can't compare his divekick with Sonya's, but it should be better for sure.

The parry fucked things up simply because it can force hesitation. No it doesn't lead to anything if you don't use meter, but it counters anything that doesn't hit low, and that can make someone stop attacking long enough.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

I really wish CSZ was a viable character. He's very unique and interesting. If I felt I could make him work I would certainly play him. His animations imo are probably the coolest in the game as well. They almost got him right but he needs some more stuff for sure. Hope they keep the character in UMK9/MK10 though because I do like him. Certainly more so than Frost lol

 

[Flagg]

I am utterly convinced NRS do not know their own frame data properly, because some of the stuff affecting the likes of CSZ and Kano are ludicrous. And the worst thing is, these characters got nerfed.

I think one of CSZ biggest weaknesses is mobility. Glue forgot to mention his utterly garbage teleport though im sure he is aware of it. It is the WORST teleport in the game. You cannot teleport from full range safely from a Kitana fan. Infact, what the hell does his EX teleport even do? It doesn't set anything up. I guess a shit teleport was the price for dive kick. At this point, what was the point in even giving him a teleport.

If CSZ didn't have respectable damage, he'd be the laughing stock of the game.

It's a real shame because CSZ is still my favourite character to use. Things like his teleport need addressing, his bombs need addressing. Make his slide truly go under all porjectiles if NRS refuse to do anything with his teleport...at least give him a sliver of a chance of getting in on airborne fireball throwers. One of the first "gimmicky" things I found with CSZ is, if you throw a medium bomb, you can ex slide them into the bomb. Now this might be quite good if you could freeze them, but NO! They go through the bomb explosion, take the damage, but still end up on the other side of the screen.

Tonight I thought I found a mini reset, by throwing a close bomb, then dashing in with F1 into medium bomb. If they block, they get frozen, you can then divekick them onto the next bomb which freezes them. Except...the opponent can wake up attack, completely negating the second bomb. It's ridiculous. They can tech roll, so I thought "okay, well i'll throw a far bomb for the guessing game" but no, the far bomb wont refreeze, even though they land on it, they just pop up.

His parry should stop everything that isn't a low attack. How that isn't the case, I dont know. Well, that's the price of divekicks I guess...

 

[MashPotatoTower]

Not a very convincing argument. So are they supposed to buff Kung Laos dive kick to?
If dive kick is to replace the use of d4 then figure out the use of d4 first.
Just learn your characters better CSZ doesn't suck
No patches for cyber. No patches for Kano
No nerf for Sonya
Games to hard don't play it

 

[Flagg]

Not a very convincing argument. So are they supposed to buff Kung Laos dive kick to?
If dive kick is to replace the use of d4 then figure out the use of d4 first.
Just learn your characters better CSZ doesn't suck
No patches for cyber. No patches for Kano
No nerf for Sonya
Games to hard don't play it

With all due respect, all you do is come into these sort of threads telling people to quit complaining.

If you dont see a problem, why are you even making a point. I wont stop using CSZ, but it's still stupid the stuff that affects him. And the argument "thats the price of divekicks" just reaffirms that those weaknesses are deliberate.

 

[GuamoKun]

Play with CSZ long enough and you'll see just how spoiled some of these other characters are. CSZ almost has virtually every tool...but they pale in comparison to other ones.

Freeze is slower overall and is 10 frames less than regular Sub's. YES CSZ DID NOT GET THE SAME BUFF
His bombs are not that bad....but Cyrax's are just waaay better.
Sonya's and Lao's divekicks allow more pressure on hit.
His teleport is basically a move that punishes you for using it.
His slide actually has a batter hit box than Sub's since many high attacks that lead to punishes will whiff at times, but he still gets no armor.

Whats nice though, is that people like seeing him for some odd reason.

 

[Flagg]

Play with CSZ long enough and you'll see just how spoiled some of these other characters are. CSZ almost has virtually every tool...but they pale in comparison to other ones.

Freeze is slower overall and is 10 frames less than regular Sub's. YES CSZ DID NOT GET THE SAME BUFF
His bombs are not that bad....but Cyrax's are just waaay better.
Sonya's and Lao's divekicks allow more pressure on hit.
His teleport is basically a move that punishes you for using it.
His slide actually has a batter hit box than Sub's since many high attacks that lead to punishes will whiff at times, but he still gets no armor.

Whats nice though, is that people like seeing him for some odd reason.

I think because its a testament to the player when someone does well with CSZ. The good thing about CSZ, he sort of forces you to play well. You can't really rely on his specials except for punishing. You can punish some airborne characters with his slide, but the timing has to be good. He does decent damage and it's quite easy to hit confirm 21 into iceball if they aren't blocking or 21, 1+2 or throw for added pressure if they block. Let's not forget, off a frozen bomb, Njp, U4 slide, 43%? That's not to be scoffed at. Considering what he is hindered with, he still isn't bad, but he has many gray areas, areas that just dont make sense. I hate how Ex icebeam doesnt trade and the useless teleport. But, ces't le vie.

 

[MashPotatoTower]

With all due respect, all you do is come into these sort of threads telling people to quit complaining.
If you dont see a problem, why are you even making a point. I wont stop using CSZ, but it's still stupid the stuff that affects him. And the argument "thats the price of divekicks" just reaffirms that those weaknesses are deliberate.

My apologies. These threads do bother me because i have been on the buisness end of these balencing predicaments before. secondly I also completely disagree with this patch pitch and further patching the game isn't at all necessary by any means. I myself believe that the game is fair. I to in the past have cried about my character not being good enough. But that was me clouding myself with lies to cover up the fact that I was just a salty scrubby ass scrub.
Just like everyone else that ever complained about anything being unfair.

CSZ has probably the best d3 In the game he can whiff a dive kick from the other side of the stage to right I front of you or behind you or where ever he wants so why does he need d4 let alone a safe teleport? Plus you have b2 and freaking b1. This character just does Not have trouble getting in. So no fair buff there

 

[THTB]

I think one of CSZ biggest weaknesses is mobility.

Extra mobility is hella overrated now, really, unless you're Kung Lao or Reptile (who actually gets nowhere without dash). At the top level, regular mobility is pretty much all you need.

 

[UsedForGlue]

CSZ has probably the best d3 In the game he can whiff a dive kick from the other side of the stage to right I front of you or behind you or where ever he wants so why does he need d4 let alone a safe teleport? Plus you have b2 and freaking b1. This character just does Not have trouble getting in. So no fair buff there

Usually after I post threads like this, I stop and let a good few comments come in before I intervene or drop my two cents again, but I have to jump in right with you man.

''CSZ has probably the best D3 in the game'' - Lets look at that a bit more, what exactly is excellent about a d3 that is +3 on hit? CSZ's fastest normal is a 9 frame , but it is high, and not the best option after getting advantage from a d3, as I will be counter poked out of any directly after.

So my only better options are 33, and 34, they are 13 frames, which means I can be full combo punished by any 9 frame move, and or crossed over, for attempting pressure after a hit d3.

My only guaranteed option is a crossover, or instant short dive kick, both, very punishable, and not worth going for considering you have just worked for advantage, what is the point getting advantage to throw out an unsafe short dive kick?

It is also -10 on block.

So, considering that...what exactly is so great about it?

Not once, did I ask for a safe teleport, but get a grip man, a D4 is a fucking basic normal, and this character is refused it for dive kicks.

B2 is hilariously slow and only best used from a JIP, B2 is a anti jump in punisher which can only combo into freeze on hit, and b22 grants +4 on hit, but again, we already talked about his lack of good normals to take advantage of advantage, when he gets it, and very little of it.

Also ''This character does not have trouble getting'', I am sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about, there is not much more I can say here.

 

[UsedForGlue]

Really, the divekicks should have a higher reward. Regular divekicks should do 10%, and EX divekicks should be extremely high in hit advantage. You can't compare his divekick with Sonya's, but it should be better for sure.

The parry fucks things up simply because it can force hesitation, it doesn't lead to anything if you don't use meter, but it counters anything that doesn't hit low, and that can make someone stop attacking long enough.

Yes, it forces hesitation, I agree, and the chance to bait pokes and then counter the pokes, but the parry itself is not worth using unless its the parry, the special parry is just gimmicky, the goal with CSZ is to never be out of touching distance, the special parry goes against all he stands for.

 

[UsedForGlue]

UsedForGlue's "comparison" video is very misleading because it does not take the far dive kick, which is very good versus grounded projectiles, into account.

I don't understand how you could be mislead, its very simple, the reason given for his lack of basic fundamental pokes is because of the dive kick, short or far, it's not as great as you seem to think it is.

First of all, the dive kick is a wiff punisher, and a projectile punisher. Thats it.

It grants no real advantage, deals small damage considering how unsafe the dive kick really is on block, the trade just isn't worth it if used as a main gameplay tactic, its not to be lived and died for.

If I play against Cage (for example) and I try to use the dive kick to hinder his AA game and make him hesitate, it won't matter, he can take 7-8 dive kicks before eventually landing a stand AA into his nut punch combo and setting things straight again.

He is not that bad of a character, but all in all, his design makes no sense. I wouldn't mind the dive kick being so punishable if it at least was something to fear, if it granted large frame advantages and allowed him to get in and start a rushdown, then yes, I could see it being a better move, with more to respect.

 

[M2Dave]

I don't understand how you could be mislead, its very simple, the reason given for his lack of basic fundamental pokes is because of the dive kick, short or far, it's not as great as you seem to think it is.

Where did I say or imply that the dive kick compensates for his terrible pokes? All I am saying is that the far dive kick is very good versus grounded fireballs, which you did not mention in your video. In my opinion, the dive kick is fine the way it is. It does what it is designed to do: punish grounded fireballs on reaction. What Cyber Sub needs is a complete overhaul on his pokes. Some of his special move need to be buffed too, and he should have armor on the EX slide at least.