vs. Kung Lao?

[GrandMasterson]

I'm making this thread because I truly believe this is Scorpion's worst match-up, even worse than Cage or Sonya. Kung Lao's insane mobility, unlimited mix-ups, great wake-ups and footsies, and armored EX teleport simply shut Scorpion down almost completely.

What can Scorpion do? Block low and wait to punish a random spin or divekick, all while taking chip damage and giving Lao meter?

There's no way this is a 4-6, it's at LEAST 3-7, possibly worse. PLEASE tell me that I'm wrong and Scorpion has some sort of anti-Lao tech I'm unaware of besides making 100% perfect reads while Kung Lao just flies around the screen like a dumbass. Yes, I salty.

 

[Big Pampering]

Uhm, no Its an even matchup imo. what do kung lao players do to give you trouble? you gotta be more specific man.

 

[Scoot Magee]

IMO scorpion loses to a good Kung Lao. Air mobility and better footsies are the main reason he loses the match. Sure scorpion can punish him hard but the other player has to make a bad mistake.

In the end, outside of his shitty d4, vortex and 50/50 scorpion sucks. Hiss 111 pressure is ok but the first hit whiffs crouch so good luck getting in with it.

 

[GrandMasterson]

Uhm, no Its an even matchup imo. what do kung lao players do to give you trouble? you gotta be more specific man.

You can't be serious. Kung Lao's D4 is +12 on hit, D3 is +3 (Scorp's D4 is 0 on hit, and D3 is -7 on hit), his normals are all faster except for standing 4 where Scorp's is 1 frame faster whoopdedoo, his strings have safe mix-ups that are made worse by grabs, he has an EX teleport with armor (Scorpion's has none and can be poked out of), his ground mobility is almost matched by his air mobility with strings that advance him forward especially F+3, and he gains a lot of meter and deals lot of chip damage while Scorpion is blocking all this shit.

There's absolutely NO WAY it is even. Scorpion has to make absolutely perfect reads to beat a decent Kung Lao, not to mention an above average one.

 

[Big Pampering]

You can't be serious. Kung Lao's D4 is +12 on hit, D3 is +3 (Scorp's D4 is 0 on hit, and D3 is -7 on hit), his normals are all faster except for standing 4 where Scorp's is 1 frame faster whoopdedoo, his strings have safe mix-ups that are made worse by grabs, he has an EX teleport with armor (Scorpion's has none and can be poked out of), his ground mobility is almost matched by his air mobility with strings that advance him forward especially F+3, and he gains a lot of meter and deals lot of chip damage while Scorpion is blocking all this shit.

There's absolutely NO WAY it is even. Scorpion has to make absolutely perfect reads to beat a decent Kung Lao, not to mention an above average one.

His d3 is 9 frames and his d4 is the same as a lot of characters, its just that scorpion's pokes suck and he just needs to make use of his other tools, but he has the a 6 frame d1 which is huge because he doesnt have any mid hitting normals that are fast, so you can interrupt a lot of pressure. And what do you mean safe mixups his 24 overhead is safe against scorp, but the low hat is full combo punish on block so how is that safe. scorpion has a safe takedown with or without armor an armor spear that is great for anti air can get you out of pressure and is a great tool against zoning. scorpions ex teleport is not fast but can be deadly in certain situations, for example when you are in the corner or when you hit the opponent in the air.

You're saying you need to block all his strings but he can't just start his pressure, he has to get in and get around your d1 and d4, he cant start his strings that begin with 1 or 2 if you neutral crouch and play footsies.

Maybe it is in kung lao's favor but it would be one of the most even 6-4's in the game.

 

[SunnyD]

Ex spear will defeat alot of Kung Lao's air mobility.

 

[Big Pampering]

Ex spear will defeat alot of Kung Lao's air mobility.

random spears are a big no against kung lao, one teleport is a full combo punish and you can't spear instant whiffed dive kicks on reaction its too fast.

 

[SunnyD]

random spears are a big no against kung lao, one teleport is a full combo punish and you can't spear instant whiffed dive kicks on reaction its too fast.

Thats Scorp's whole game plan though. Big risk big reward?

 

[Big Pampering]

Thats Scorp's whole game plan though. Big risk big reward?

no, those are not the risks he needs to take and especially not in this matchup. Imo you need to play it patient. I would play footsies around jump range where its hard for him to whiff divekicks, that way he will try to jump at you which allows you to anti air him, if he throws hats, you can jump on him and start a full combo. you can d1 his teleports and if you block the teleport 3 he can't do anything against you except for a risky spin or block, so thats how a 6 frame d1 comes into play against kung lao's 7 frame d1. if he tries to do dash up to you and do 24 try to whiff punish it with a spear, if he tries to roll its -4 on block. so he cant start his strings, so he needs to block the d1, he could've canceled into a risky spin but he had to commit to it.

 

[GrandMasterson]

And what do you mean safe mixups his 24 overhead is safe against scorp, but the low hat is full combo punish on block so how is that safe. scorpion has a safe takedown with or without armor an armor spear that is great for anti air can get you out of pressure and is a great tool against zoning. scorpions ex teleport is not fast but can be deadly in certain situations, for example when you are in the corner or when you hit the opponent in the air.

You're saying you need to block all his strings but he can't just start his pressure, he has to get in and get around your d1 and d4, he cant start his strings that begin with 1 or 2 if you neutral crouch and play footsies.

EX Spear is only good when you guess right, and it's only good for anti-air if you read it exactly right and even then, Kung Lao can bait this by teleporting mid-air and punish. Also, Scorpion's EX teleport is a terrible idea in the corner because it can easily be stuffed due to having 35 frames of start-up and no armor. EX takedown is almost always Scorpion's best bet out of the corner. Also, why would I want to do EX teleport when I hit the opponent in the air? You mean normal teleport? Thanks, I knew that.

So far we've established that I can punish a close-range low hat, which a good Lao player will stop doing once I do punish, and that I can D1 out of some of Lao's pressure. Playing footsies with Lao mid to close range is dangerous because there's always the threat of the spin.

You realize what you're telling me right? You're saying I have nothing but D1, D4, and a (sort of) safe takedown, all of which just puts me in the exact same situation I was in before, except worse since a blocked takedown is -4.

and if you block the teleport 3 he can't do anything against you except for a risky spin or block

Huh? A blocked teleport 3 is 0 on block which means Scorpion is in almost the exact same situation he was in when the match started. Do you see where I'm getting at? You keep talking about how Scorpion has all these options, but they don't really do anything except put him and Lao at almost neutral (Scorp is usually in negative frames), which is where the matchup is inherently against Scorpion: every single time Scorpion and Lao are neutral, Kung Lao's options outweigh Scorpion's. The only time Scorpion has advantage is through the vortex, and getting that set up is one of the hardest things for Scorpion to do.

Maybe it is in kung lao's favor but it would be one of the most even 6-4's in the game.

This doesn't even make sense. If there are two 6-4 matchups where one is "less even" than the other, than one of them isn't a 6-4.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Scorpion loses this match clearly. The fact that he has to take huge risks to win in a lot of match ups are proof he is a low tier character.

Stopping kung lao's pressure with down 1 works but where does that really get you? Neutral crouching against kung lao at the wrong time is just asking to get blown up so I don't think that's a great idea. Throwing out an ex spear when kung lao is in the air is a good way to lose the game faster. The player has to fuck up for you to get anything going.

Btw scorpion is like the worst footsie character in the game. d4 is all he has when it comes to footsies and once you commit to a f4 or b2 the footsie game is over resulting in a vortex or your death.

My advice on the kung lao match? Make a good read and land a spear/f4/b2 and keep him in the vortex as long as you can. Once that vortex stops kung lao has the potential to just take control of the match regardless of your life lead or position on the screen. The reason why is you're going to have to do something crazy to stop his mobility and pressure. Your best bet is keeping him in the vortex and guessing right over and over.

 

[Slips]

I believe this match-up is even, mainly because Scorpion can punish KL harder than most characters. KL can't use hats to zone because of hellfire and TP so he has to make his way in.

The moves that give KL all his mobility is tele, f+3 and dive kick. If he reads a KL tele, he can dash forward and get a free b+2 for 39% + vortex. Even if you don't read the tele, you still might have a chance to duck and d1 to float him into a spear into a vortex. EX tp also blows up tele. If KL abuses f+3, njp will blow it up for another 39% + vortex. And obviously blocking a dive kick gives 35% + void/vortex.

Eventually, the KL player will relax on his special moves and start fighting more straight up which allows you to play Scorpion as normal. But KL's rush down isn't as krazy as Cage's or Sonya's, ect. so if you guess wrong and he gets in, its not a huge deal.

 

[GrandMasterson]

The moves that give KL all his mobility is tele, f+3 and dive kick. If he reads a KL tele, he can dash forward and get a free b+2 for 39% + vortex. Even if you don't read the tele, you still might have a chance to duck and d1 to float him into a spear into a vortex. EX tp also blows up tele. If KL abuses f+3, njp will blow it up for another 39% + vortex. And obviously blocking a dive kick gives 35% + void/vortex.

I really appreciate these tips Slips; I didn't know you could blow up Lao's teleport with B+2.

I suppose it isn't 3-7, and while I respect your opinion, I still think it's at the very least 4-6. Scorpion simply has to make more reads, make less mistakes, take more risks, and just generally play smarter than Kung Lao does. Lao also has better wake-ups, footsies, normals (Scorpion's standing 3 is good, but Lao's are all faster), and EX specials.

I mean, am I wrong about any of that?

 

[leek]

I really appreciate these tips Slips; I didn't know you could blow up Lao's teleport with B+2.

I suppose it isn't 3-7, and while I respect your opinion, I still think it's at the very least 4-6. Scorpion simply has to make more reads, make less mistakes, take more risks, and just generally play smarter than Kung Lao does. Lao also has better wake-ups, footsies, normals (Scorpion's standing 3 is good, but Lao's are all faster), and EX specials.

I mean, am I wrong about any of that?

Not everything is input on the first possible frame by each player. If a move is drastically faster then I could see why it's an issue but these characters don't outpace each other by much. It's just about making better reads in all honesty and it comes with practice in the matchup. Like slips said for example you can use B2 to punish teleports, there may be more hard counters to some of his moves. I'm not a scorpion main nor do I play him even as a secondary, but I can see a reactionary style working a bit better in this matchup.

remember to not let him walk all over you and to try to interrupt with d3's and d1's.. if you could test it try to see if you can stop F3(Lao) with a D4. that'd open up some possibilities with the advantage and allow for some breathing room

if this just seems like gibberish, disregard my post.

 

[Slips]

I really appreciate these tips Slips; I didn't know you could blow up Lao's teleport with B+2.

I suppose it isn't 3-7, and while I respect your opinion, I still think it's at the very least 4-6. Scorpion simply has to make more reads, make less mistakes, take more risks, and just generally play smarter than Kung Lao does. Lao also has better wake-ups, footsies, normals (Scorpion's standing 3 is good, but Lao's are all faster), and EX specials.

I mean, am I wrong about any of that?

KL has 3 main avenues to get in on Scorpion. If you guess right on 1 of those 3, your going to get almost half life, maybe more if you go for vortex/void.

If he guesses right, he gets in. He'll do chip damage, maybe an overhead, throw, low hat, whatever. All of which isn't major damage but its annoying and it will add up.

He'll guess right more often to get in on you, but when you guess right you get big damage.

KL has better footsies but not by much and not enough to make that big of a difference. I haven't played any KL that makes me think this is so heavy in KL's favor to escalate it to a 6-4.

 

[KRYS9984]

I haven't played any KL that makes me think this is so heavy in KL's favor to escalate it to a 6-4.

Slips Scorpion > PL's Kung Lao, just saying.

If Slips can take on one of the best and succeed, then the MU is certainly not 7 - 3 or 6 - 4 in Kung Lao's Favor.

 

[Big Pampering]

EX Spear is only good when you guess right, and it's only good for anti-air if you read it exactly right and even then, Kung Lao can bait this by teleporting mid-air and punish. Also, Scorpion's EX teleport is a terrible idea in the corner because it can easily be stuffed due to having 35 frames of start-up and no armor. EX takedown is almost always Scorpion's best bet out of the corner. Also, why would I want to do EX teleport when I hit the opponent in the air? You mean normal teleport? Thanks, I knew that.

So far we've established that I can punish a close-range low hat, which a good Lao player will stop doing once I do punish, and that I can D1 out of some of Lao's pressure. Playing footsies with Lao mid to close range is dangerous because there's always the threat of the spin.

You realize what you're telling me right? You're saying I have nothing but D1, D4, and a (sort of) safe takedown, all of which just puts me in the exact same situation I was in before, except worse since a blocked takedown is -4.



Huh? A blocked teleport 3 is 0 on block which means Scorpion is in almost the exact same situation he was in when the match started. Do you see where I'm getting at? You keep talking about how Scorpion has all these options, but they don't really do anything except put him and Lao at almost neutral (Scorp is usually in negative frames), which is where the matchup is inherently against Scorpion: every single time Scorpion and Lao are neutral, Kung Lao's options outweigh Scorpion's. The only time Scorpion has advantage is through the vortex, and getting that set up is one of the hardest things for Scorpion to do.



This doesn't even make sense. If there are two 6-4 matchups where one is "less even" than the other, than one of them isn't a 6-4.

Yo believe me I know what I am talking about, I used to play scorpion even before patch.105 and I only dropped him for two months now. As I already said Ex spear is a big NO against kung lao. And why Is ex teleport a bad option in the corner? Yes its slow but if you use it as a wakeup attack you have invinsibility frames if they try to pressure you with anything but pokes they will eat a 50% + combo + a vortex situation. And Ex takedown also has his downsides if they cross you up and the takedown whiffs. And why ex teleport in the air, you talk all big when I am trying to help you, when you hit an airborne opponent with ex teleport in the air you can teleport to the other side and 111spear him into a vortex combo. And why is mid range dangerous because of spin? I don't get it, I play kung lao and I don't recall kung lao's spin having that big of a hit box, also spin is full combo punish on block. you can use ex spin at mid range, but is any good kung lao gonna make that stupid gamble all the time, also he doesn't get as much damage off of an ex spin compared to regular spin and its 9 frames, so its not as scary as normal spin.

A blocked teleport is only spin or block for kl because he has a 7 frame d1 and scorp has a 6 frame d1, I told you already. also If you punish low hats they will stop doing it, you said it right , you shut out his projectiles so he has to respect you, to stop the jumps he will try to spin you, bait it and you get your combo in.

seriously, all these points youre making don't make sense. Kung lao matchup is a relatively easy matchup to learn unless you play against the real good lao's. which I think you haven't played after hearing why you think its a 7-3 in lao's favor. Just study lao's options compared to yours and it is not as bad as it is. Im calling it a 5.5-4.5

 

[Scoot Magee]

Slips is right about everything stated in the match up vs lao. Scorpion can punish the shit out of him but I still feel the way the match plays out it's in KL's favor. 6-4 really isn't that bad of a match imo. 7-3 is where match ups get bad but I'm not sure why all bad match ups in this game that are considered really bad are labeled at 6-4.

 

[OutworldKeith]

I think the Kitana match-up is much harder

 

[Big Pampering]

I think the Kitana match-up is much harder

Sonya is even worse imo.

 

[OutworldKeith]

Sonya is even worse imo.

I second that. I honestly don't have trouble with KL anymore.

 

[GrandMasterson]

Yo believe me I know what I am talking about, I used to play scorpion even before patch.105 and I only dropped him for two months now. As I already said Ex spear is a big NO against kung lao. And why Is ex teleport a bad option in the corner? Yes its slow but if you use it as a wakeup attack you have invinsibility frames if they try to pressure you with anything but pokes they will eat a 50% + combo + a vortex situation. And Ex takedown also has his downsides if they cross you up and the takedown whiffs. And why ex teleport in the air, you talk all big when I am trying to help you, when you hit an airborne opponent with ex teleport in the air you can teleport to the other side and 111spear him into a vortex combo. And why is mid range dangerous because of spin? I don't get it, I play kung lao and I don't recall kung lao's spin having that big of a hit box, also spin is full combo punish on block. you can use ex spin at mid range, but is any good kung lao gonna make that stupid gamble all the time, also he doesn't get as much damage off of an ex spin compared to regular spin and its 9 frames, so its not as scary as normal spin.

A blocked teleport is only spin or block for kl because he has a 7 frame d1 and scorp has a 6 frame d1, I told you already. also If you punish low hats they will stop doing it, you said it right , you shut out his projectiles so he has to respect you, to stop the jumps he will try to spin you, bait it and you get your combo in.

seriously, all these points youre making don't make sense. Kung lao matchup is a relatively easy matchup to learn unless you play against the real good lao's. which I think you haven't played after hearing why you think its a 7-3 in lao's favor. Just study lao's options compared to yours and it is not as bad as it is. Im calling it a 5.5-4.5

EX teleport sucks in the corner because it has 35 frames of startup, and wake-up invincibility is only 10 frames. So for 25 frames, Scorpion is vulnerable to being poked out of EX tele startup, AND he can also eat an uppercut or a D1 into spin combo when he reappears on the other side. By contrast, EX takedown has faster startup, armor, it has good range, it can be whiff punished but is overall safer than EX tele.

I said playing footsies MID TO CLOSE range is dangerous; mid not as much but everything in between because a spin overrides even a D4. This is an iffy issue because a good Lao won't throw random spins in that range, but he could still read a D4/D1 coming and spin.

Also, there is no gameble using EX spin against Scorpion. It's -13 on block but due to the insane pushback, Scorpion can't even punish it with hellfire (maybe EX hellfire but I'm not sure, and even then why bother). So yes, it is much scarier than normal spin in this matchup.

You're not getting the point about Scoprion blocking Lao's teleport, 3. Scorpion can do a D1 or block, but so what? Lao can block or do a spin. In that case, why would I ever want to risk doing a D1 when Lao could punish it with a full spin combo? I might as well just keep blocking or jump back. This is the base of my entire argument which is that every strategy Scorpion has for Kung Lao will almost always result in putting the characters back at neutral, and when at neutral, Lao's options outweigh Scorpion's. Yes, Scorpion punishes Lao very well, but a good Lao will give you very few chances to do this. I was wrong saying the match up is 3-7, but I still think it is 4-6.

You're probably right that Sonya is harder, but I haven't played many good Sonyas. Same with Kitana. And you're wrong Mindgame, I have played plenty of good Laos.

 

[Big Pampering]

EX teleport sucks in the corner because it has 35 frames of startup, and wake-up invincibility is only 10 frames. So for 25 frames, Scorpion is vulnerable to being poked out of EX tele startup, AND he can also eat an uppercut or a D1 into spin combo when he reappears on the other side. By contrast, EX takedown has faster startup, armor, it has good range, it can be whiff punished but is overall safer than EX tele.

I said playing footsies MID TO CLOSE range is dangerous; mid not as much but everything in between because a spin overrides even a D4. This is an iffy issue because a good Lao won't throw random spins in that range, but he could still read a D4/D1 coming and spin.

Also, there is no gameble using EX spin against Scorpion. It's -13 on block but due to the insane pushback, Scorpion can't even punish it with hellfire (maybe EX hellfire but I'm not sure, and even then why bother). So yes, it is much scarier than normal spin in this matchup.

You're not getting the point about Scoprion blocking Lao's teleport, 3. Scorpion can do a D1 or block, but so what? Lao can block or do a spin. In that case, why would I ever want to risk doing a D1 when Lao could punish it with a full spin combo? I might as well just keep blocking or jump back. This is the base of my entire argument which is that every strategy Scorpion has for Kung Lao will almost always result in putting the characters back at neutral, and when at neutral, Lao's options outweigh Scorpion's. Yes, Scorpion punishes Lao very well, but a good Lao will give you very few chances to do this. I was wrong saying the match up is 3-7, but I still think it is easily 4-6.

You don't understand scorpions wakeup game and the whole wakeup game in general I think. When they poke you on wakeup you just block and get up. When you block a poke they are at disadvantage. For them to be able to wait for your teleport on the other side, they couldn't have pressured you on wakeup, so they just guessed right. when they wait and try to poke you, you do a takedown, the wakeup game is a guessing game, youre only describing scorpions weakpoints when he guesses wrong, what if they really try to pressure you with their strings? then you do the ex teleport and blow them up for 50% plus vortex. Having that said, most of the time you should just get up and block instead of being wakeup happy.

d4 footsies blown up by spin? I have yet to see any lao spinning d4's on reactions it sounds hella risky to me, lao only gets 20-25% off of a far spin. if they whiff a spin you dash up and do a 35% great void combo and he gets put in the vortex. and the pushback on ex spin? the pushback differs but I don't recall it being safe against scorpion, youre just gonna have to practice more on your punishing skills, neither lao or scorp is to blame for that.

Blocking a teleport 3 and doing d1 sometimes is a must, if you keep blocking im just gonna grab you, pressure you with whatever string and youre far worse off than getting your d1 blown up once in a while, kung lao can only beat your d1 by spinning, which means if you block the spin you get 35-40% off of lao. And I don't see how a blocked teleport 3 situation is different for scorpion compared to the majority of the cast. thats part of lao's game. if you d1 lao, you get to start your pressure. also if you block the teleport 3 and try to jump out, youre gonna get launched by the spin, so dont try that ever again.

The reason you think its 6-4 or 7-3 is because youre describing situation where you guess wrong, what if you guess right? this can't be worse than 5.5-45 and after some good thinking I want to take that back , its a 5-5.

 

[Big Pampering]

I believe this match-up is even, mainly because Scorpion can punish KL harder than most characters. KL can't use hats to zone because of hellfire and TP so he has to make his way in.

The moves that give KL all his mobility is tele, f+3 and dive kick. If he reads a KL tele, he can dash forward and get a free b+2 for 39% + vortex. Even if you don't read the tele, you still might have a chance to duck and d1 to float him into a spear into a vortex. EX tp also blows up tele. If KL abuses f+3, njp will blow it up for another 39% + vortex. And obviously blocking a dive kick gives 35% + void/vortex.

Eventually, the KL player will relax on his special moves and start fighting more straight up which allows you to play Scorpion as normal. But KL's rush down isn't as krazy as Cage's or Sonya's, ect. so if you guess wrong and he gets in, its not a huge deal.

I agree his rushowdown cannot even be compared to cage or sonya. I don't even really see lao as a 100% rushdown character either, his rushdown doesnt really overwhelm the other characters . He is more of an anti zoning character becuase he gets in whenever he wants.

 

[GrandMasterson]

I guess it's just me then. I don't know why Kung Lao gives me so much trouble. After these discussions were had, I played against a Kung Lao with Scorpion and lost 5 out of 5 games. He just mindfucked me by cancelling strings (fucking hate 2, 4) and starting them up again, grabbing me because I felt like all I could do was turtle at certain times, he simply refused to divekick unless it was after a knockdown to get in or during a combo, D4 into free pressure, and just generally destroyed me. He was no scrub either because he played incredibly safe and it just felt hopeless.

I honestly don't have this much trouble with any other match up. I think I just need to develop a completely new strategy for fighting Lao. Back to the drawing board.