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Strategy against high level kabal?

G4S Claude VonStroke

@MK_ClaudeVS on twitter
So i've been playing with a high level Kabal player and i noticed many issues with this matchup. One being raid en's high hitbox. It leads to block infinites! I mean every time i would block the NDC pressure the infinite was coming, it was so stupid. Then i would try to teleport on reaction to a IAGB and i would immediately get Kabals knee into a combo. i can't believe you can't teleport on reaction to the IAGB. We tested it multiple times. How do you win this matchup with these issues? Thanks for the the help.

I know Cage/Kabal is bad for cage but i actually feel more comfortable in that match because of his lower hitbox.
 

Gruntypants

THE MUFFINS ARE BEEFY
If you are about midscreen away from him can't you punish his iafb with superman? Much like how you would punish kung lao's low hat on reaction midscreen.
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
i started with raiden but found that shang was more effective because i use kabal also. that and I can far ground skull him out of iagb

if i can land a SS ill just trade till i have the life lead
 

Albo

Apprentice
This match is as risky for both characters. First of all the good thing about this match is that kabal can't build nearly as much meter as he is able to against most of the cast.

You can get in using ex superman to combat his zoning attempts and the universal methods of approaching characters (dashing crouch blocking in etc) while the kabal player has to take into account that you also have the threat of tele as well as ex tele. F4 has a 9f startup so it's possible to punish Raiden's tele but i'm not sure if that's possible while doing a iagb so you''ll have to test that with that player a bit further. What Raiden can do to combat this though is do ex tele which would make his f4 whiff and you can dash in 334 into a full combo. Also be wary of the kabal player trying to bait an ex superman out of you while he does iagbs since they recover very quickly if done well and you've got to read that he's going to do one and react with ex superman. You can check him with d3 after a tele or during his his pressure game.

The downside to this match is that Raiden has a big hitbox as you mentioned but that's all Kabal has in this matchup (and 111DC) that isn't a guess or a huge guess against raiden since raiden is able to teleport out of most of his strings and avoid his zoning, plus you have to take into account the difficult execution of 2DC nd if the kabal player messes up, you get a full combo punish.

EX Shocker is an important tool in this mu also to interrupt his dash cancal pressure but it's very risky unless your sure of the read. You can superman over saws from about 3/4 (maybe mid depending on you reactions) to full screen on reaction so the kabal player should know this and avoid doing it. If this kabal player is who i think it is, then you might want to avoid using 334 and b312 as high level kabals with godlike reactions would be able to interrupt those strings with ex nomad dash but if that's happens you can cancel into tele to make it his punish whiff and punish him yourself instead. Raiden viods the use of kabals footsie game, zoning, corner and most of his NDC pressure (it's important to know this part of kabal thoroughly) so raiden already doesn't allow him to play his game. His only option imo is to rush you down so make him play your game and let yourself dictate the pace of the fight, taking the kabal player out of his comfort zone.

These are the strings you're able to tele out of on block (not sure about on hit so you'll have to check out the kabal frame data) and the last two are the ones your not able to tele out of. Check out the kabal pressure system thread for more in depth info on this.


F3DC-0
F32DC-+2
B1DC-+1
B12DC-+2
21DC-+2
F4DC--5

2DC-+9 (Free b1 or f3 check after)
111DC-+8 (Free f4 check)
 

G4S Claude VonStroke

@MK_ClaudeVS on twitter
thank you for the detailed response. Just some notes...

He would IAGB i would tele and try to d3 like you said and i would eat the knee. If i tried to tele and back up same thing would happen. then if i block it just reset all his NDC pressure so basically i can't teleport unless i do ex tele which works sometimes but i can't really build enough meter because as soon as i try to throw a projectile it will be ex dash on reaction. So then i'll FB and get IAGB to the face lol. Seems like at the highest level against Kabal raidens tele is almost useless which that combined with his interruptible strings and block infinite hitbox makes the matchup to me at least 6 -4.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Seems like at the highest level against Kabal raidens tele is almost useless which that combined with his interruptible strings and block infinite hitbox makes the matchup to me at least 6 -4.
I don't believe the teleport is useless, but high level Kabal vs. high level Raiden has been in Kabal's favor since the latest patch in my opinion. You can't teleport in response to iaGBs on reaction. If you try to, the Kabal player gets a free check with f+4. Kabal has better offense and zoning in this match up, and he can blow through Raiden's strings with EX dash too.

2 xx NDC is fucking stupid and should be reduced to a reasonable frame advantage.
 

AC1984

Kaballin!
I never did any infinities...Its just 2x2x....Its shitty but I don't think it's bad....D3 at the right place and time shuts it down...as far as the F4 on teleport, I did it every time on reaction....U need more practice thats all...

P.S. I'm not high level....more like average
 

G4S Claude VonStroke

@MK_ClaudeVS on twitter
I never did any infinities...Its just 2x2x....Its shitty but I don't think it's bad....D3 at the right place and time shuts it down...as far as the F4 on teleport, I did it every time on reaction....U need more practice thats all...

P.S. I'm not high level....more like average
mr humble over here.
 

Albo

Apprentice
thank you for the detailed response. Just some notes...

He would IAGB i would tele and try to d3 like you said and i would eat the knee. If i tried to tele and back up same thing would happen. then if i block it just reset all his NDC pressure so basically i can't teleport unless i do ex tele which works sometimes but i can't really build enough meter because as soon as i try to throw a projectile it will be ex dash on reaction. So then i'll FB and get IAGB to the face lol. Seems like at the highest level against Kabal raidens tele is almost useless which that combined with his interruptible strings and block infinite hitbox makes the matchup to me at least 6 -4.
But he isn't able to punish your tele, but just reacting quick enough with his pressure which you can block so he isn't really able to punish the tele while trying to do iagbs. Even if he does them well, maybe he's trying to bait you into doing it so he can go into his pressure but that shouldn't be a huge problem for raiden unless it's 2ndc or 111ndc. If he tries to punish every time then you can try crossing him over which should avoid his punish if he's trying to react after iagb's. It's hard enough truly punishing raidens tele as it is let alone while trying to do iagbs so i don't know what to tell you other than try and understand his pressure well so you know exactly when to tele/jump/poke/armour out of it and annoy the crap out of him lol and use try not to be predictable with tele when trying to get in on him. As for the strings he's at huge advantage at, you can try Armour even though the window is small, your not going to eat a load of chip.

You can always dash crouch block as another option of approaching while the threat of tele and superman can keep kabal at check. You can also after a d3, back dash, bait his punish, and punish yourself with b3.
 

G4S Claude VonStroke

@MK_ClaudeVS on twitter
i do the armor sometimes but if he can even bait that after a couple times lol. I guess my main issue is without the tele threat i basically have Ex tele and not much else because just pure vanilla offense from raiden is pretty bad imo. He relies on whiff punishing to get his offense going and the teleport is a huge part of that strategy. WHY OH WHY did they nerf it. Damnit.
 

Albo

Apprentice
i do the armor sometimes but if he can even bait that after a couple times lol. I guess my main issue is without the tele threat i basically have Ex tele and not much else because just pure vanilla offense from raiden is pretty bad imo. He relies on whiff punishing to get his offense going and the teleport is a huge part of that strategy. WHY OH WHY did they nerf it. Damnit.
They only added two frames of recovery on it plus they buffed his ex tele so that's not too bad. Try playing the matchup over and over again and see how you fare. Most think this matchup is 5-5 and it comes down to who makes the better reads that wins. Look at it this way, at least we have it easier than most of the cast lol

I don't believe the teleport is useless, but high level Kabal vs. high level Raiden has been in Kabal's favor since the latest patch in my opinion. You can't teleport in response to iaGBs on reaction. If you try to, the Kabal player gets a free check with f+4. Kabal has better offense and zoning in this match up, and he can blow through Raiden's strings with EX dash too.

2 xx NDC is fucking stupid and should be reduced to a reasonable frame advantage.
Do you mean a f4 check on block? Surely Kabal can't truly punish the tele after trying to do iagb's at the same time.
 

cgerrr

Tourney id: Gfc_alekS
I got it from this video and double checked on this thread http://testyourmight.com/threads/kabal-frame-data-conclusions-blocked-string-gaps.15312/. The kabal frame data thread just confuses the hell out of me lol. I may be wrong about 21 though i'm not sure wince i'm seeing different info everywhere.
It's strange: maybe the OP of that thread used outdated data for his draft. Thought he said it himself:
Like I said earlier, this is a rough draft. If there's any erroneous information or anything that looks like a typo, let me know. If you have any suggestions to make this easier to read, I'm open. If you have any questions let me know.
According to Kabal frame data thread numbers provided earlier are correct ones.
Can someone with definite knowledge confirm/clarify the frame data on 2 NDC and 21 NDC?

Edit: Though if you think about it the 2 NDC 2 NDC.. infinite wouldn't be possible if Kabal isn't at +9 after blocked 2NDC, coz 2 is 9 frames. Hmm, clarification needed.
 

Albo

Apprentice
It's strange: maybe the OP of that thread used outdated data for his draft. Thought he said it himself:
According to Kabal frame data thread numbers provided earlier are correct ones.
Can someone with definite knowledge confirm/clarify the frame data on 2 NDC and 21 NDC?
2NDC is a block infinite when done well which suggests it's massive advantage. This has been known for a while now. I'm not sure about 21. EDIT: cgerrr REO mentioned in the vid that it's +2 on block and Crathen seems to agree so i think it's right. I forget how to calculate cancelled move frame data otherwise i would calculate it myself lol http://testyourmight.com/threads/nomad-dash-cancel-strategy.12964/

Raiden can neutral duck 2NDC btw Claude VonStroke and punish but you'll have to be quick since it recovers pretty quick leaves you open to his b1 and other strings.
 

G4S Claude VonStroke

@MK_ClaudeVS on twitter
2NDC is a block infinite when done well which suggests it's massive advantage. This has been known for a while now. I'm not sure about 21

Raiden can neutral duck 2NDC btw Claude VonStroke and punish but you'll have to be quick since it recovers pretty quick leaves you open to his b1 and other strings.
as soon as i would try to duck he would d3 and i would be f'd lol
 

Albo

Apprentice
as soon as i would try to duck he would d3 and i would be f'd lol
His d3 is 7f so Raidens d1 (6f), d3 (7f) would definitely beat him out if he tries to poke you after whiffing 2. Maybe d2,d4 and 1212 could punish it on whiff if he tries to poke after although i haven't tested this myself and don't know exactly so please do if you're able to.
 

cgerrr

Tourney id: Gfc_alekS
In general you want to duck after/in the midst of first 'salvo' of Kabal's NDC pressure. If it was 2 NDC - continue to down block: sooner or later he will do f.32 NDC or b.12 NDC then you can easily teleport (or interrupt his b.12 with ex tickling). If Kabal continues with 2 NDCs check your position: if you're in crouch, then he failed an infinite and you can poke out with your fast down pokes. If he mixes 2 NDC with his other NDC strings: you need to learn his pattern/make a good read.

All in all you don't want to be under Kabal's pressure if you have big hit box, thus spacing/footsies is you friends (Kabal footsies are mediocre at best imo). I suggest you to check Justin Wong MLG matches: though he got bodied he has great understanding of those.
 

AC1984

Kaballin!
His d3 is 7f so Raidens d1 (6f), d3 (7f) would definitely beat him out if he tries to poke you after whiffing 2. Maybe d2,d4 and 1212 could punish it on whiff if he tries to poke after although i haven't tested this myself and don't know exactly so please do if you're able to.
Wrong...after a 2, b1,b12, f32 I have a free poke if he tries to interrupt....go read the Kabal guide if u don't believe me...
 

Albo

Apprentice
Wrong...after a 2, b1,b12, f32 I have a free poke if he tries to interrupt....go read the Kabal guide if u don't believe me...
I was only referring to his 2 in my post in the situation that it whiffs. I don't understand what you're trying to say here...are you talking about these normals on block, when cancelled on hit or on whiff?