MK9: Unofficial Tier List Speculation, and/or Character Shenanigans Discussion!

[R.E.L.]

Snip from my list above:
(Sub's Ice Clone) qcb1=source of his pressure. Unlike the constant string rushdown of others, Sub's pressure is Zone control related. He can simply cutoff so many options by putting this in your space (especially in corner).

Tom Brady didn't do anything revolutionary this weekend @PowerUp with Sub-Zero. The concept sounds simple: use Ice Clone and make them deal with it. However in practice, the placement and timing of the move differentiates a solid player and a spammer. This is why it is difficult to see what he was doing. He was playing very, very safe Sub-Zero Zone control by baiting (almost forcing) mistakes from opponents.

In certain matchups Sub-Zero takes alot of patience and reading the opponent to be successful. He doesn't have the insane damage output or rushdown that other top tier characters have, but he probably has the least bad matchups and obvious weaknesses.

Is Sub-Zero number definitely #1? That is highly debatable, which brings us back to this thread and discussion repeatedly.

Thank you Water for explaining why you think he's rated so high. I think you're tier list is fairly accurate for the most part, and I like how you broke it down and justified why.

 

[MKF30]

You know one thing I'm a little surprised we didn't see was the "block dash cancel/break the clone" trick. Can this work if the clone is done in the air though but say you can still get frozen by walking/dash cancelling into it or does the clone have to be done groundlevel?

 

[water]

Thank you Water for explaining why you think he's rated so high. I think you're tier list is fairly accurate for the most part, and I like how you broke it down and justified why.

NP. Glad to be of help.

I moved the Detailed Tier List to its own thread. I felt the size and scope of the eventual material would be too big for a single post. Please help build it there if you have input. Thanks for the help!

http://testyourmight.com/forum/showthread.php?4655-Character-Summaries-Pros-Cons

 

[RWDY Nori]

Anybody have any opinions of Nightwolf and Shang Tsung? I think Nightwolf is great (not sure why he's not shown in more tourneys) but I'm not sure about Shang. He's my favorite char but not sure how good he is. Thoughts?

 

[Diadel]

Ermak counters Nigthwolf very hard and can zone him very well.

 

[RWDY Nori]

Ermak counters Nigthwolf very hard and can zone him very well.

Can you give details? Is NW's lightning not effective?

 

[Zedox]

Ermak counters Nigthwolf very hard and can zone him very well.

I'm not so sure about that. Nightwolf does have his lighting and arrow to deal with Ermac zoning. Even though Ermac can counter them by teleporting but then Ermac is close and Nightwolf can take advantage of that.

 

[MKF30]

Ermac has an edge on anyone that has to get in on him or doesn't have a teleport...

 

[Luxus Nights]

I think Ermac has a tough time against Shang.

 

[RWDY Nori]

Yes but I'm asking is WHY people think Ermac beats Nightwolf? NW's lightning is great. Can a player who plays this match break this down?

 

[Arcade-Fever]

Ermac has an edge on anyone that has to get in on him or doesn't have a teleport...

I think it depends on the speed and recovery of your opponent projectile and how fast he can travel on the screen, for example, how good you think the matchup against Kano is? he is really good at zoning, his knife has a fast recovery so you can't just blindly teleport punch him and his balls are quite fast which allow him to punish bad zoning and careless jumping quite easily.

 

[REYTHEGREAT]

All I know is that smoke can put an end to all the zoners out there.

 

[MKF30]

I think it depends on the speed and recovery of your opponent projectile and how fast he can travel on the screen, for example, how good you think the matchup against Kano is? he is really good at zoning, his knife has a fast recovery so you can't just blindly teleport punch him and his balls are quite fast which allow him to punish bad zoning and careless jumping quite easily.

Yeah this is true too, Sindel for example can spam her fireballs VERY well and fast and Shang can give Ermac a tough time I've noticed. Since he has various ones, from above, straight, below etc

Or characters that have a teleport or if not a teleport a evade move that can get closer(such as Sonya or Kitana) I've noticed can get closer to Ermac easier then say....Stryker, NW, Liu Kang etc someone like that.

I wouldn't try to nail Kano with a random teleport while it can work against anyone, I prefer to zone him out since his cannonball also comes out fast by just keeping him away, if I get him in a combo though he's getting a teleport lol

@nori, well NW's lighting is unblockable but you have to remember Ermac has a teleport and can just teleport fast out of trouble and hit NW as he's in that animation. It's worked for me anyway, and you just have to keep moving against NW and Scorp, since both have unblockable moves(hellfire and lightning) Ermac also has an unblockable move too, the buttslam which is slower but it's actually good to use if you're facing a none teleporter spammer with projectiles, if you time it right you can dodge the projectile while hitting the ground. But not rely on it. Mix it up with teleports and air blasts and cancelling for mind games.

Last night I was doing this a lot, I've noticed whenever I levitated people would jump thinking I'm automatically going to do the buttslam but did the teleport instead and immediately took them out of the air for a combo

 

[Konqrr]

I change my opinion on who is the #1 character in this game. It is no longer Sub to me, it is Kung Lao...

Yes, he is unsafe when his moves are blocked. Yes, Reptile beats him.

But there is no way to stop him from coming at you unless you have ice clone. Even then that is a free teleport to get in. Dive kick punishes every projectile attempt from near to full screen. Dive kick auto-corrects if you try to avoid it and go under him or teleport away trying to avoid that last hit of chip that would kill you... you still get hit. Spin active frames are there for ever, this is a problem in the corner when he is just out of range...it's very hard to punish/stop and impossible to jump out. His roll attack forces you to respect the spin and thus you block and get thrown or stuck in a blockstring mixup where a scrubby spin comes out randomly.

Teleport Throw is SO STUPID. Yes, you can uppercut it before it happens, you can dash out, you can jump out if you are fast enough, it's slow... yes, I get that. But what about on wakeup? He teleports behind you so you can't do a wakeup attack (afaik), and he is already in prime position to throw you or overhead. If you do a recovery, you are almost guaranteed to be thrown. You can't jump out because the fucking throw grabs you out of the air, which in itself is stupid as hell.

Maybe I'm just venting to losing to a crazy rushdown kung lao player who did hella unsafe shit but got away with it because I failed to punish hard enough. No matter what, he was on top of me and I had to guess to get out and take risk to do so.

Don't get me wrong, I won more games in the set and pretty much started it going 5-0 before the bullshit ensued... but I'm no noob at this game.

I think that Kung Lao is a stupid scrub character and that is not what NRS wants in this game. He needs a nerf...

 

[darkfroggy]

I believe Ice Clone gets owned by block-dash as well =(

 

[MKF30]

I wouldn't mind Kung Lao getting nerfed, he's becoming the mainstream "trendy" character picked online I've noticed. His teleport is slower but he has 3 options lol and like you said can be done on wake up. On top of everything else he has, he's just really powerful. I'm also honestly not a big fan of Liu Kang's "across the screen jab juggle combo" but he has to get in on you, so it's not that bad on second though...just keep him away and he's worthless.

 

[Tim Static]

I change my opinion on who is the #1 character in this game. It is no longer Sub to me, it is Kung Lao...

Yes, he is unsafe when his moves are blocked. Yes, Reptile beats him.

But there is no way to stop him from coming at you unless you have ice clone. Even then that is a free teleport to get in. Dive kick punishes every projectile attempt from near to full screen. Dive kick auto-corrects if you try to avoid it and go under him or teleport away trying to avoid that last hit of chip that would kill you... you still get hit. Spin active frames are there for ever, this is a problem in the corner when he is just out of range...it's very hard to punish/stop and impossible to jump out. His roll attack forces you to respect the spin and thus you block and get thrown or stuck in a blockstring mixup where a scrubby spin comes out randomly.

Teleport Throw is SO STUPID. Yes, you can uppercut it before it happens, you can dash out, you can jump out if you are fast enough, it's slow... yes, I get that. But what about on wakeup? He teleports behind you so you can't do a wakeup attack (afaik), and he is already in prime position to throw you or overhead. If you do a recovery, you are almost guaranteed to be thrown. You can't jump out because the fucking throw grabs you out of the air, which in itself is stupid as hell.

Maybe I'm just venting to losing to a crazy rushdown kung lao player who did hella unsafe shit but got away with it because I failed to punish hard enough. No matter what, he was on top of me and I had to guess to get out and take risk to do so.

Don't get me wrong, I won more games in the set and pretty much started it going 5-0 before the bullshit ensued... but I'm no noob at this game.

I think that Kung Lao is a stupid scrub character and that is not what NRS wants in this game. He needs a nerf...

I agree, Konqrr. Yet, after spending time with Bill this past weekend, he thinks once people crack him, he'll be about the #6 best character. But i agree nonetheless he needs a nerf of some sort. His random stupidity is.....bad.

 

[water]

I agree, Konqrr. Yet, after spending time with Bill this past weekend, he thinks once people crack him, he'll be about the #6 best character. But i agree nonetheless he needs a nerf of some sort. His random stupidity is.....bad.

NRS should make 2 adjustments to Kung Lao's spin; neither change will affect the spin if it connects and will not affect combo opportunities:
#1- Reduce active frames: it stays active too long for what it does. This will make it easier to punish on whiff.
#2- Give it a block animation like almost every other extremely fast move. This will make it more consistent to punish when blocked.

This Risk/Reward for this move is too far in Kung Lao's favor. He can consistently land full combos on hit, he should have to consistently risk a full combo as a punish on whiff/block.

 

[RWDY Nori]

#2- Give it a block animation like almost every other extremely fast move. This will make it more consistent to punish when blocked.

This Risk/Reward for this move is too far in Kung Lao's favor. He can consistently land full combos on hit, he should have to consistently risk a full combo as a punish on whiff/block.

It does have a unique block animation already though. I agree w/Brady, the more you play against the char or as the char, you see he's not overpowered at all. He has to take real risks to get damage

 

[THTB]

I agree he's good. But the thing is, he has to take risks to get the most out of what he does. It still doesn't excuse his high damage output, and that's one thing that does need to go.

But I think once people get used to playing him, he'll be far more dealable.

 

[Konqrr]

I agree with everything you guys said. I need a second person, non-match, to do his stuff so I can test counters to them. I normally don't have trouble against Lao, but crazyrandomrushdownneverstoppressingbuttons lao made me rage because I got hit by so much random shit. lol

 

[DanCock]

Kung does not have much risk. he has every tool it takes to win. most of the characters have a certain tool to compete but lacks in another department. Kung doesn't lack in any department this is where the balance go away. a low special that stuns his foe on hit. a low string that pops up. a full screen punish, a 2 in 1 special that pops up, an xray that can be comboed into then out of, a FUCKING TELEPORT EH move that has ARmor even though it already teleports twice to psyche out his foe, it has armor WTF!!

there's more but I'm at work and have to go back.

barakas spin move is so fucking unsafe, where every character can punish it add to the fact Baraka doesn't have many tools to compete

but Kung who has a billion tools to win has a pretty much safe spin move that is the 2nd fastest special in the entire game and it's hard for the majority of the cast to punish a wiffed spin, you try and dash to punish it he goes and does the EH version of it and your fucked some more!!!!!!

but he needs it to compete, and Barakas needs to be unsafe. -_-


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[THTB]

Lol, Perfect Legend woulda made you rage even harder... >.>

Just sayin'... ^_^

 

[Tim Static]

I agree with everything you guys said. I need a second person, non-match, to do his stuff so I can test counters to them. I normally don't have trouble against Lao, but crazyrandomrushdownneverstoppressingbuttons lao made me rage because I got hit by so much random shit. lol

lmao exactly. Kung Random is random.

 

[Luxus Nights]

Come on you guys lets not scream nerf just yet, we don't want another Sentinel incident on our hands, lets play it out a bit longer.