UMK3 2024 Tier List Discussion

[Juggs]

Yes I know this doesn’t need to be discussed again. And yes, I know not very much has changed as far as the meta is concerned. But I just like UMK3 Tier List discussions especially when people are actually willing to discuss them.



^ This is my new UMK3 Tier List. Not too much different, but my opinion on a few characters has changed. I think Kabal is unequivocally the best character in the game so no surprises there, and likewise Human Smoke is certainly the 2nd best.

Ermac and Reptile aren’t that far behind. Used to have Reptile much further down, and Sindel a bit further down as well. I know some people (for whatever reason) don’t think Ermac is a top 5 character, but I don’t see which character you’d put in front of him other than Kabal and HSmoke. Like, I could even entertain him being above HSmoke. Being able to punish sweeps on block with TKS already is insanely good on its own, but the fact that he punishes it with such a high damaging combo, I don’t see how he isn’t a top 4 character. As far as Reptile, I used to think Reptile was extremely overrated. But he’s much better than I realized back in the day. A big reason for Reptile and Sindel being higher is the GJ OS launchers they have. With Reptile, I knew he had good damage it’s just that no one seemed to be able to consistently punish with his volley loops. And I certainly never learned them in detail, I just learned enough to do a couple of them. And then you factor in his invisibility. This makes both him and Robot Smoke soo much better. In fact, I could easily see them both being S+ tier while invisible.

The hardest part for me is the order of A tier. They’re all so very close that you could honestly rearrange them in any way and it’d be fine. Oh and I don’t believe Shang is the worst character anymore. That said, no character in this game is “bad” and they all can win. It’s just characters like Liu Kang have to work so much harder than the upper tier characters.

Anyway, I know there’s really nothing “new” to discuss, but figured that if anyone wanted to discuss it that I’d make this thread.

Oh and just for fun, made a personal “Main” “Tier List”. Wanted to organize what characters I use the most and consider “mains” or “backups” and what not. But also figured it’d be cool to see others as well if they wanted to post theirs. Anyway, here’s mine:

 

[MRIGOTBASS]

I promise you Sheeva is not last tier, 99% of people have no clue how to play her. She decimates male ninjas worse than almost any other character. Has unblockable overheads, has a HK that reaches halfway across the screen, throw loop mixups, legs all that. This classic tier list was made by people who have no clue how to play the game other than UMK.com MK2 style UMK3. I move you move i move you move, single kara jab, i move you move. LOL I cant even believe people swallowed this bullshit as long as they did. Not trying to be mean, but the people who made this tier list fucking suck at umk3 LOL.

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

What does UMK3 meta revolve around? I never played it competitively, but I am under the impression it is based on infinite combos or something. I distinctly remember seeing Reptile do an infinite dash combo, is that why he is placed high? Or are infinites banned and he just has other very good assets?

 

[tehdrewsus]

I can't see Ermac above HSmoke based on TKS sweep punish alone; if it was easier to do, could be done on every character, and wasn't dependent on what active frame the sweep was blocked (per character even!), I could see it. If his naked TKS / TKS punishers were more universal, I could also see it. His BnBs on popup isn't as high damage as HSmoke's. Pretty close, but not there.

I don't see Reptile above Nightwolf, but I also can't infinite volley loop with Reptile. Reptile's another one where he can't go 100% on the entire cast (I think).

Mileena and Jade are a tier higher than they need to be.

Kung Lao and Stryker are way better than Shang.

I'm a simple man, Should be no + or - below S tier, but that's just my preference. Here's my try-to-be-objective-list


I'll catch flack for:
Lao being where he is, but he has an infinite, and his 7 hit combo especially with a jump starter is pretty high damage.
Mileena for being where she is by the people who think she's better, and the people who think she's worse
Sheeva not having her own F-- tier list designation
The first 8 are my top 8 in order, Stryker being 9.
The waters start to muddy in the B tier, I feel like lines can overlap on these characters in the list.
C tier is C tier, can be arranged however you want, same with D tier

For Fun: as far as my skill has taken me:



PSN online tier list:

 

[Juggs]

I promise you Sheeva is not last tier, 99% of people have no clue how to play her. She decimates male ninjas worse than almost any other character. Has unblockable overheads, has a HK that reaches halfway across the screen, throw loop mixups, legs all that. This classic tier list was made by people who have no clue how to play the game other than UMK.com MK2 style UMK3. I move you move i move you move, single kara jab, i move you move. LOL I cant even believe people swallowed this bullshit as long as they did. Not trying to be mean, but the people who made this tier list fucking suck at umk3 LOL.

I agree the classic tier list wasn’t perfect, but the tier list in the OP is the tier list I made. As I said in the OP, no character is necessarily “bad” in UMK3 and all can compete on some level. Aside from the tools they have, It just comes down to matchups and how hard they have to work for the win. As you know I love using Sheeva, but she has too many issues and horribly lopsided matchups. I don’t think she’s the worst character, but I do think she’s bottom tier. Yes, she has a lot of good offensive options. Her and Cyrax are the only 2 characters in the game that have throw loops and can combo off of their throws. But both have too many weaknesses and too many bad MU’s.

To reiterate, this isn’t me saying Sheeva and Cyrax are bad characters, because they aren’t. There’s just too many characters that have less horrid MU’s than they do.

 

[Juggs]

I can't see Ermac above HSmoke based on TKS sweep punish alone; if it was easier to do, could be done on every character, and wasn't dependent on what active frame the sweep was blocked (per character even!), I could see it. If his naked TKS / TKS punishers were more universal, I could also see it. His BnBs on popup isn't as high damage as HSmoke's. Pretty close, but not there.

I don't see Reptile above Nightwolf, but I also can't infinite volley loop with Reptile. Reptile's another one where he can't go 100% on the entire cast (I think).

Mileena and Jade are a tier higher than they need to be.

Kung Lao and Stryker are way better than Shang.

I'm a simple man, Should be no + or - below S tier, but that's just my preference. Here's my try-to-be-objective-list

I'll catch flack for:

Lao being where he is, but he has an infinite, and his 7 hit combo especially with a jump starter is pretty high damage.

Mileena for being where she is by the people who think she's better, and the people who think she's worse

Sheeva not having her own F-- tier list designation

The first 8 are my top 8 in order, Stryker being 9.

The waters start to muddy in the B tier, I feel like lines can overlap on these characters in the list.

C tier is C tier, can be arranged however you want, same with D tier

Thanks for participating and also posting your tier list and even your mains tier list! I think it’s fun & interesting seeing what characters people main and what characters they have in their back pocket.

I don’t think Ermac is better than HSmoke, I just can understand the argument behind it. What I don’t understand is the people who say he’s not a top 4 character. I believe ded is one of the ones who said this but never actually explained why he felt that way.

Like I said in the OP, I always thought Reptile was massively overrated. Couldn’t understand why he was considered a top 10 character let alone a top 5 one. But over the years, playing against actually good Reptiles as well as watching footage of good ones, all on which who can consistently do the volley loops and really utilize his invisibility, it made me realize just how strong he can be in the right hands. This was solidified for me after studying @A l i matches. He’s not just playing randoms or above average players, he’s playing very good players and doing extremely well with Reptile. Against characters I even long believed were hard counters like HSmoke and Ermac. But his volley loops look to be the easiest to do on Male Ninjas (aside from characters like maybe Jax). But I’m not a Reptile expert, so maybe I am now the one who is overrating him.

I used to believe Mileena and Jade were low mid or even low tier. But Arion and REO changed my opinion on Jade, just like they did with Kitana.

As for Mileena, her Roll is extremely fast, almost as fast as Kabal’s spin. Her Roll can punish blocked sweeps, HK’s, LK’s and certain blocked specials that are difficult to punish like Nightwolf’s Shoulder. She has the HP GJ OS that makes every character who has it much better.

Which for those reading who don’t know what that is, the HP GJ OS stands for “High Punch Glitch Jab Option Select”. Where the character has a HP combo starter and you can do the HP GJ’s and if they get close enough it’ll go into that HP combo starter. So it’s essentially a nearly completely safe way to not just apply pressure AND defend, it can lead to a decent damage combo if the opponent lets go of block.

Anyway, that HP GJ OS is also a launcher. And her having a launcher is another thing that makes her good as she gets fairly good damage from it. Aside from that, her Instant Air Sais are very good and comparable to Kitana’s and Kabal’s. She actually can do them much quicker than Kitana’s instant air fan since there’s that cooldown of Kitana’s fan toss. All of that plus her of course having the female Ninja jabs just makes her a top 10 character imo.

I don’t believe Kung Lao is “way better” than Shang. Shang without morphing is actually a pretty good character. But him being able to morph into every character nearly instantly and there not being that much recovery frames when he morphs back is just too strong to ignore. It of course doesn’t make him top tier or anything, just not one of the bottom 4 characters imo. As far as Stryker, I think you’re right and I have him too low. He has some surprisingly good MU’s vs some characters. Like, characters like Kabal not being able to LP jab him while he’s crouch blocking is an insanely good advantage in that MU.

In regards to your tier list, I believe you have Robot Smoke, Mileena and Sindel too low and Kung Lao way too high. The rest I can understand. I don’t necessarily agree but I can understand it. I believe Sindel is one of the most underrated characters in the game. I honestly think one of the biggest issues is that there just isn’t very many high level Sindel mains. Not to be confused with high level players who occasionally will use Sindel in like casuals or something. If I come back to playing this game competitively again, I might try to focus on maining her. I just never wanted to main characters like Reptile, Sindel, and even Nightwolf who is a character I DO use in tournaments occasionally. But the reason is because I just can’t seem to get down Nightwolf’s 3+ upwards axes, or Sindel’s flight cancel corner combos, or more than a few Reptile volleys. That said, this is primarily due to a lack of training mode as well as just not putting in that much effort into learning these things.

 

[Vulgar]

I remember seeing a video by K&M and in it, they talk about how Kano has a lot of strong tools on paper, including a choke infinite?

Could he be higher than people think?

 

[Juggs]

I remember seeing a video by K&M and in it, they talk about how Kano has a lot of strong tools on paper, including a choke infinite?

Could he be higher than people think?

He’s really good. He has probably the best JK in the game. It has a crazy good hitbox and a fairly small hurtbox. Also has one of the best sweeps in the game. He’s also one of the characters that has a HP GJ OS (I explained what this is in the post above, it stands for “High Punch Glitch Jab Option Select”). I have him just outside the top 10, but many have him in the top 10. He’s definitely a strong character, there’s just stronger ones. Which is a theme with UMK3’s tier list. It’s similar to MK1 in that no character is necessarily “bad”, it’s just the lower tier characters are outshined by other characters or they have some pretty bad MU’s. As far as infinites, yes they matter, but how practical they are is what is most important. For instance Cyrax technically has a corner infinite but it’s fairly difficult to setup. He also has high damaging bomb combos but again, they’re hard to setup. Shang also has an infinite. Technically he has several infinites as you can do some pretty cool morph infinites/100% combos. But he also has an infinite he can do without morphing, yet both him and Cyrax are low tier.

But yeah, Kano is definitely strong and can compete with any character.

 

[Komatose]

Sonya in between Sindel and Nightwolf.

 

[tehdrewsus]

Thanks for participating and also posting your tier list and even your mains tier list! I think it’s fun & interesting seeing what characters people main and what characters they have in their back pocket.

I don’t think Ermac is better than HSmoke, I just can understand the argument behind it. What I don’t understand is the people who say he’s not a top 4 character. I believe ded is one of the ones who said this but never actually explained why he felt that way.

Like I said in the OP, I always thought Reptile was massively overrated. Couldn’t understand why he was considered a top 10 character let alone a top 5 one. But over the years, playing against actually good Reptiles as well as watching footage of good ones, all on which who can consistently do the volley loops and really utilize his invisibility, it made me realize just how strong he can be in the right hands. This was solidified for me after studying @A l i matches. He’s not just playing randoms or above average players, he’s playing very good players and doing extremely well with Reptile. Against characters I even long believed were hard counters like HSmoke and Ermac. But his volley loops look to be the easiest to do on Male Ninjas (aside from characters like maybe Jax). But I’m not a Reptile expert, so maybe I am now the one who is overrating him.

I used to believe Mileena and Jade were low mid or even low tier. But Arion and REO changed my opinion on Jade, just like they did with Kitana.

As for Mileena, her Roll is extremely fast, almost as fast as Kabal’s spin. Her Roll can punish blocked sweeps, HK’s, LK’s and certain blocked specials that are difficult to punish like Nightwolf’s Shoulder. She has the HP GJ OS that makes every character who has it much better.

Which for those reading who don’t know what that is, the HP GJ OS stands for “High Punch Glitch Jab Option Select”. Where the character has a HP combo starter and you can do the HP GJ’s and if they get close enough it’ll go into that HP combo starter. So it’s essentially a nearly completely safe way to not just apply pressure AND defend, it can lead to a decent damage combo if the opponent lets go of block.

Anyway, that HP GJ OS is also a launcher. And her having a launcher is another thing that makes her good as she gets fairly good damage from it. Aside from that, her Instant Air Sais are very good and comparable to Kitana’s and Kabal’s. She actually can do them much quicker than Kitana’s instant air fan since there’s that cooldown of Kitana’s fan toss. All of that plus her of course having the female Ninja jabs just makes her a top 10 character imo.

I don’t believe Kung Lao is “way better” than Shang. Shang without morphing is actually a pretty good character. But him being able to morph into every character nearly instantly and there not being that much recovery frames when he morphs back is just too strong to ignore. It of course doesn’t make him top tier or anything, just not one of the bottom 4 characters imo. As far as Stryker, I think you’re right and I have him too low. He has some surprisingly good MU’s vs some characters. Like, characters like Kabal not being able to LP jab him while he’s crouch blocking is an insanely good advantage in that MU.

In regards to your tier list, I believe you have Robot Smoke, Mileena and Sindel too low and Kung Lao way too high. The rest I can understand. I don’t necessarily agree but I can understand it. I believe Sindel is one of the most underrated characters in the game. I honestly think one of the biggest issues is that there just isn’t very many high level Sindel mains. Not to be confused with high level players who occasionally will use Sindel in like casuals or something. If I come back to playing this game competitively again, I might try to focus on maining her. I just never wanted to main characters like Reptile, Sindel, and even Nightwolf who is a character I DO use in tournaments occasionally. But the reason is because I just can’t seem to get down Nightwolf’s 3+ upwards axes, or Sindel’s flight cancel corner combos, or more than a few Reptile volleys. That said, this is primarily due to a lack of training mode as well as just not putting in that much effort into learning these things.

I like the analysis. I'm still not 100% on Mileena being higher than where I have her simply because she has to work pretty hard for her damage. The HP GJ OS into popup is nice, and the damage is decent, but punishing anything with a roll, while nice, a bit flashy, and as I like to say, more "mentally" damaging to the opponent, the damage just isn't there because of the roll triggering double damage protection.

I can see Sindel being low on my list. She is a good character.

Lao gets high on the list because of the infinite and high damage output. Shang's problem is if your opponent is good with the morph timer, those morph back frames put him into a very small (yet abusable) lame-duck window.

Male ninja normals in this game are absolutely outstanding, I think they have the best aaRH right there with Liu, and if you're a teleporter your aaRH leads to opportunities for massive damage. Female ninja jabs are top notch as well. I think Classic Sub has been slept on for a long time. I'll admit though that as much as I enjoy playing him and can bring him out for a couple wins every once in a while, he's still a gadget character. But leveraging his normals in conjunction with his tricks may warrant another look.

 

[Juggs]

I like the analysis. I'm still not 100% on Mileena being higher than where I have her simply because she has to work pretty hard for her damage. The HP GJ OS into popup is nice, and the damage is decent, but punishing anything with a roll, while nice, a bit flashy, and as I like to say, more "mentally" damaging to the opponent, the damage just isn't there because of the roll triggering double damage protection.

If there were a bunch of moves that could punish blocked Sweeps, HK’s, LK’s, etc than I’d agree. But it’s actually pretty rare. Even being able to punish it with only 5% would be good. Because it’s free damage AND it conditions the opponent if you’re consistent with the punishes.

Hey Drew, is it possible to create a hack/mod that gives a legitimate training mode? Like not just infinite HP bars and infinite timer, but actually being able to do some of the stuff you can do in modern training modes? I figured this would be extremely difficult to do if it’s even possible. But man, I’d be playing UMK3 every chance I could get if I could sit in the lab all day.

 

[tehdrewsus]

What kind of stuff would you like? (check DM)

 

[MRIGOTBASS]

I agree the classic tier list wasn’t perfect, but the tier list in the OP is the tier list I made. As I said in the OP, no character is necessarily “bad” in UMK3 and all can compete on some level. Aside from the tools they have, It just comes down to matchups and how hard they have to work for the win. As you know I love using Sheeva, but she has too many issues and horribly lopsided matchups. I don’t think she’s the worst character, but I do think she’s bottom tier. Yes, she has a lot of good offensive options. Her and Cyrax are the only 2 characters in the game that have throw loops and can combo off of their throws. But both have too many weaknesses and too many bad MU’s.

To reiterate, this isn’t me saying Sheeva and Cyrax are bad characters, because they aren’t. There’s just too many characters that have less horrid MU’s than they do.

Just some food for thought.

At least 4 of the Characters are Kosher, John Tobias is Kosher, so is Sindel, Sheeva, Kabal and Kano.

Yes, Tobias can be a Jewish last name: Biblical origin: The surname Tobias comes from the Greek and Latin form of the Hebrew name Tovyah, which means "Jehovah is good". The name has been popular with Jewish people for generations.

Yes, the surname Sindel can be Jewish, as it comes from the Yiddish name Zindl.

Yes, Sheva is a traditional Hebrew name that is commonly given to both boys and girls. It is associated with the concept of an oath or promise and is often used as part of compound names, such as Sheva-Ben and Sheva-El

Yes, the word "cabal" is related to the Jewish mystical interpretation of the Hebrew Bible, known as Kabbalah:

Yes, the surname Kano can be Jewish (Ashkenazic). It is a variant of the name Kahane. Between 1861 and 1920, the Kano family name was found in the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, and Scotland.

@Juggs are you Kosher ?

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

Just some food for thought.

At least 4 of the Characters are Kosher, John Tobias is Kosher, so is Sindel, Sheeva, Kabal and Kano.

Yes, Tobias can be a Jewish last name: Biblical origin: The surname Tobias comes from the Greek and Latin form of the Hebrew name Tovyah, which means "Jehovah is good". The name has been popular with Jewish people for generations.

Yes, the surname Sindel can be Jewish, as it comes from the Yiddish name Zindl.

Yes, Sheva is a traditional Hebrew name that is commonly given to both boys and girls. It is associated with the concept of an oath or promise and is often used as part of compound names, such as Sheva-Ben and Sheva-El

Yes, the word "cabal" is related to the Jewish mystical interpretation of the Hebrew Bible, known as Kabbalah:

Yes, the surname Kano can be Jewish (Ashkenazic). It is a variant of the name Kahane. Between 1861 and 1920, the Kano family name was found in the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, and Scotland.

@Juggs are you Kosher ?

Isnt Sheeva named after the (multi-armed) hindu god Shiva? And Kano after Jigoro Kano, famous japanese founder of judo martial art?

 

[Marinjuana]

If there were a bunch of moves that could punish blocked Sweeps, HK’s, LK’s, etc than I’d agree. But it’s actually pretty rare. Even being able to punish it with only 5% would be good. Because it’s free damage AND it conditions the opponent if you’re consistent with the punishes.

Hey Drew, is it possible to create a hack/mod that gives a legitimate training mode? Like not just infinite HP bars and infinite timer, but actually being able to do some of the stuff you can do in modern training modes? I figured this would be extremely difficult to do if it’s even possible. But man, I’d be playing UMK3 every chance I could get if I could sit in the lab all day.

This is actually one of the worst things about this game in 2024. I have it on the DS but no training mode. Fightcade has a training mode at least for combo practice but I'm not sure that fightcade has recording without adding third party stuff(please lmk if I'm wrong.) At least different versions of SF2 have a training mode in the SF collection.

Training mode with just settings like recharging health, auto block and recording would go a long long way