So many people compare MK1 to other assist fighting games. And I understand why, it’s not like it’s some mystery. But the problem is that MK1 is far different than really any other assist fighting game. And I know there’s a lot of you that already have your minds made up and won’t really read what I have to say here, but please humor me and hear me out.
First of all, just about every time I see someone mention Kameos or other assist fighters in response to criticisms, it’s almost always in an arrogant tone. Like you assume no MK players could’ve possibly played other Fighting Games before, let alone Assist Fighters. The most common arguments I see is that “this exists in all assist fighters”, or “if you think this is bad, you should play these other assist fighters” essentially implying that what people are criticizing isn’t worthy of criticism and that those who are being critical wouldn’t be able to handle other assist fighters. To be clear, I absolutely am not attempting to tone police, that’s not at all my point or why I’m making this thread.
What I want to do is to kinda just break down the differences between these games (to the best of my ability, I don’t claim to be an expert) and why just because something works in one game, or is a certain way, that doesn’t mean it works the same way in another, completely different game. And to be clear, it isn’t just one difference or point that counts. It’s the totality of all the differences. So if you see me point out a difference that may seem trivial, it’s just something to add to the list of differences and why I don’t believe a lot of things in MK1 are comparable to other assist fighters.
In most assist fighters, the assists are coming from characters that you’re actually going to be using in the match. Because of this fact, most assist fighting games are either 2v2 or more commonly 3v3 tag team style fighting games. MK1, as far as I can remember, is the only “assist fighter” I’ve played that’s a 1v1 fighting game with non playable assists. I actually can’t think of any others off the top of my head that even exist. In MK1, the assists don’t have HP bars, the only thing hitting them does is make them go away and there’s a short lockdown period before the assist meter can start charging again after they’re hit.
So because it’s a 1v1, the matches have rounds like a traditional fighting game. But even with rounds, the matches overall tend to be shorter in duration than other assist fighters. In DBFZ, the timer is set to 300 seconds. In Marvel vs Capcom, it’s set to 99 seconds, but that 99 seconds translates to about 3 minutes in real time. Because 1 second in Marvel is equivalent to almost 2 real time seconds (not quite 2 seconds but close). And I say “Marvel/MvC” because I’m pretty sure this applies to all the MvC games like MvC2, MvC3/UMvC3, MvCi, etc. Pretty sure this is how it works in Skullgirls as well. In Power Rangers Battle for the Grid, the timer is set to 200 seconds. Anyway, you get the idea. In all of these assist games, the matches take a decent amount of time and there aren’t traditional “rounds”.
It’s important to reiterate that these games for the most part don’t have rounds. So nothing really gets reset except for stuff like in DBFZ when you kill a character, the next character that comes in resets the neutral. Your Kameo not having an HP bar, but still being able to be hit, and everything resetting every round are actually surprisingly key factors, but more on why any of that matters later.
The other differences MK1’s Kameos aka Assists have compared to other games is they have different HP values that is added to your character. Now, this doesn’t mean, as I stated earlier, that the Kameos have actual HP bars that you can deplete. No, they’re just different HP values that get added to your character. But the issue is that not every character has the same health. The “default” HP for a character is 700, while the default for a Kameo is +300, for an even 1k HP. However, some characters start with 600 or 650 HP, while some Kameos give +250, +350, +400, etc. So, it’s not a case where every character has 1,000 HP and then the Kameos just add to that. Point being, the Character and Kameo combo matters even outside of what they can do together gameplay wise because it alters how much HP you have. Below is an example of these HP values. It is of course outdated, but the creator of it hasn’t made and updated version yet
Another difference is that there’s 2 different types of Kameo attacks, Ambush and Summon. There’s also some combinations of the two with Kameos like Tremor. The summon type of Kameo assists typically are a bit stronger, so NRS attempts to balance them out by implementing this system to where the “Summon” Kameo attacks make your character strike a pose and you’re unable to move, aka you freeze in place while the Kameo does its thing.
The way assists work in assist based fighting games does have a lot of similarities to MK1’s Kameo’s. The assist comes out briefly from off screen, does something, then leaves the screen. These assists can extend combos, they can reset combos for setups, they can apply pressure, they can make things safe, they can do damage over time (DoT), they can create either unblockables or hard to blockables (HTB’s), and more. Both the Kameo assists, and the assists from these team game assist fighters can all do these things. However, Kameo’s in MK1 have access to a wide array of different moves at all times (to an extent) depending on your Kameo meter and cooldown, while in other assist fighting games like Marvel, you have to choose which assist attack you want your characters to have at the select screen. So, assists actually are more limited in a lot of these other assist fighters as far as the individual assists are concerned. And the most important difference is the downsides or “risks” to calling your assists in these other assist fighters compared to MK1.
Since most assist fighters are tag fighters, the assists in these games are almost always actual playable characters you’ll use in your match. So them getting hit after you call them is a significant punish as it actually deplete the health of that assist/character. You also run the risk of getting “Happy Birthday’d” or even worse, a victim of a “Merry Christmas”. A “Happy Birthday” is when you catch 2 characters in a combo. It’s typically the main character that is currently “out/active” on the field/stage, and an assist you called in. Since assists can not only take damage, they also can be combo’d, you can kill 2 birds with one Happy Birthday combo (or 3 with a Merry Christmas combo). This is a massive risk where the reward is nowhere near worth that risk. The main point here is that there’s actually a significant risk/reward factor with calling your assists. Example of a “Merry Christmas” in MvC3 below. Fast forward to around 0:50 seconds and watch from there: (You might have to actually click on the title and go to YouTube. When I tried to watch it on here, it said I needed to sign in to confirm I’m not a bot, smh)
^Would like to add that there’s also DHC’s and what not that you risk getting Happy Birthday’d or Merry Christmas’d if you do.
In MK1, none of this applies. Since the assists in MK1 aren’t actually playable characters and don’t have an HP bar, them getting hit, as I stated earlier, just gives you a slap on the wrist. Which to reiterate is just the assist attack not finishing, and the assist recovery meter is lockedout for a few seconds. This is not at all a huge punishment by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, it’s more simply just inconvenient than anything else.
Then you take a look at what MK1’s version of assists, Kameos, can actually do. And as I stated earlier, they can do quite a lot. In fact, they can do just about everything any regular assist in an assist fighter can do. Ya know, extend combos, help apply pressure, make just about anything safe, gives you alternate zoning options, gives characters mixups that they don’t otherwise have, etc. So, while yes, the Kameos in MK1 for the most part do the same or similar things that assists in other assist fighters do, they become so much stronger when they have near constant access to ALL of their assist attacks and not just a pre-picked one. It being a 1v1 game where the risks for using these assists is virtually nonexistent is also a big factor in making them much stronger in MK1. AND you don’t have the luxury of having 2 more characters you can make a comeback with if one of your characters die to some crazy sequence of mixups, a huge damaging combo that they were able to do because they did a full screen fck neutral move that btw is safe thanks to your Kameo, or any other number of low risk high reward things you can do in MK1. Nor, btw, do you have all that much time to make said comeback anyway.
This severe lack of risk has been my main issue with Kameos since launch. But every time I would voice my concerns, I would get told to suck it up and that this is just how assist fighting games work. I have played several assist fighting games, like MvC2, MvC3/UMvC3, DBFZ, BlazBlue briefly when it first released, X-Men vs SF back in the day, and maybe more I’m forgetting. Even though I’m not an expert, I know how assist fighters operate. I actually got pretty good at MvC3 and DBFZ, and I want to get the MvC Fighting Collection especially for MvC2 since it has my favorite character of all time (Juggernaut of course) and I’ve seen some cool stuff people are doing with him on their “fun” teams. Anyway, Kameos do (kinda) operate similarly to assists in other games. The main problems are that Kameos have access to all of their assist moves, AND there’s very little to no risk in using them like there is these other assist fighting games.
But, maybe I’m completely wrong about something here. So I’d love to get some feedback. Like I said, even though I have a lot of experience playing assist based fighting games, I do NOT claim to be an expert on them. And I know this will likely be a controversial thread, so just take it easy. Be constructive with your disagreements and/or arguments. Oh and I know there’s a lot of stuff I didn’t mention. Like the limitation of assists in some of these assist fighters, the snap out or super jump mechanics, that assists are actually more vulnerable than your point character in a lot of these games and/or that damage scaling doesn’t apply to assists in some of these games (meaning every hit in or outside of a combo on assists does FULL damage), and a bunch more stuff. I just didn’t want to make this super long thread even longer than it already was because I realize most people don’t like reading long threads. Which I don’t necessarily blame them, especially having to read a Juggs thread.
But anywho, what are everyone’s thoughts about this?
First of all, just about every time I see someone mention Kameos or other assist fighters in response to criticisms, it’s almost always in an arrogant tone. Like you assume no MK players could’ve possibly played other Fighting Games before, let alone Assist Fighters. The most common arguments I see is that “this exists in all assist fighters”, or “if you think this is bad, you should play these other assist fighters” essentially implying that what people are criticizing isn’t worthy of criticism and that those who are being critical wouldn’t be able to handle other assist fighters. To be clear, I absolutely am not attempting to tone police, that’s not at all my point or why I’m making this thread.
What I want to do is to kinda just break down the differences between these games (to the best of my ability, I don’t claim to be an expert) and why just because something works in one game, or is a certain way, that doesn’t mean it works the same way in another, completely different game. And to be clear, it isn’t just one difference or point that counts. It’s the totality of all the differences. So if you see me point out a difference that may seem trivial, it’s just something to add to the list of differences and why I don’t believe a lot of things in MK1 are comparable to other assist fighters.
In most assist fighters, the assists are coming from characters that you’re actually going to be using in the match. Because of this fact, most assist fighting games are either 2v2 or more commonly 3v3 tag team style fighting games. MK1, as far as I can remember, is the only “assist fighter” I’ve played that’s a 1v1 fighting game with non playable assists. I actually can’t think of any others off the top of my head that even exist. In MK1, the assists don’t have HP bars, the only thing hitting them does is make them go away and there’s a short lockdown period before the assist meter can start charging again after they’re hit.
So because it’s a 1v1, the matches have rounds like a traditional fighting game. But even with rounds, the matches overall tend to be shorter in duration than other assist fighters. In DBFZ, the timer is set to 300 seconds. In Marvel vs Capcom, it’s set to 99 seconds, but that 99 seconds translates to about 3 minutes in real time. Because 1 second in Marvel is equivalent to almost 2 real time seconds (not quite 2 seconds but close). And I say “Marvel/MvC” because I’m pretty sure this applies to all the MvC games like MvC2, MvC3/UMvC3, MvCi, etc. Pretty sure this is how it works in Skullgirls as well. In Power Rangers Battle for the Grid, the timer is set to 200 seconds. Anyway, you get the idea. In all of these assist games, the matches take a decent amount of time and there aren’t traditional “rounds”.
It’s important to reiterate that these games for the most part don’t have rounds. So nothing really gets reset except for stuff like in DBFZ when you kill a character, the next character that comes in resets the neutral. Your Kameo not having an HP bar, but still being able to be hit, and everything resetting every round are actually surprisingly key factors, but more on why any of that matters later.
The other differences MK1’s Kameos aka Assists have compared to other games is they have different HP values that is added to your character. Now, this doesn’t mean, as I stated earlier, that the Kameos have actual HP bars that you can deplete. No, they’re just different HP values that get added to your character. But the issue is that not every character has the same health. The “default” HP for a character is 700, while the default for a Kameo is +300, for an even 1k HP. However, some characters start with 600 or 650 HP, while some Kameos give +250, +350, +400, etc. So, it’s not a case where every character has 1,000 HP and then the Kameos just add to that. Point being, the Character and Kameo combo matters even outside of what they can do together gameplay wise because it alters how much HP you have. Below is an example of these HP values. It is of course outdated, but the creator of it hasn’t made and updated version yet
Another difference is that there’s 2 different types of Kameo attacks, Ambush and Summon. There’s also some combinations of the two with Kameos like Tremor. The summon type of Kameo assists typically are a bit stronger, so NRS attempts to balance them out by implementing this system to where the “Summon” Kameo attacks make your character strike a pose and you’re unable to move, aka you freeze in place while the Kameo does its thing.
The way assists work in assist based fighting games does have a lot of similarities to MK1’s Kameo’s. The assist comes out briefly from off screen, does something, then leaves the screen. These assists can extend combos, they can reset combos for setups, they can apply pressure, they can make things safe, they can do damage over time (DoT), they can create either unblockables or hard to blockables (HTB’s), and more. Both the Kameo assists, and the assists from these team game assist fighters can all do these things. However, Kameo’s in MK1 have access to a wide array of different moves at all times (to an extent) depending on your Kameo meter and cooldown, while in other assist fighting games like Marvel, you have to choose which assist attack you want your characters to have at the select screen. So, assists actually are more limited in a lot of these other assist fighters as far as the individual assists are concerned. And the most important difference is the downsides or “risks” to calling your assists in these other assist fighters compared to MK1.
Since most assist fighters are tag fighters, the assists in these games are almost always actual playable characters you’ll use in your match. So them getting hit after you call them is a significant punish as it actually deplete the health of that assist/character. You also run the risk of getting “Happy Birthday’d” or even worse, a victim of a “Merry Christmas”. A “Happy Birthday” is when you catch 2 characters in a combo. It’s typically the main character that is currently “out/active” on the field/stage, and an assist you called in. Since assists can not only take damage, they also can be combo’d, you can kill 2 birds with one Happy Birthday combo (or 3 with a Merry Christmas combo). This is a massive risk where the reward is nowhere near worth that risk. The main point here is that there’s actually a significant risk/reward factor with calling your assists. Example of a “Merry Christmas” in MvC3 below. Fast forward to around 0:50 seconds and watch from there: (You might have to actually click on the title and go to YouTube. When I tried to watch it on here, it said I needed to sign in to confirm I’m not a bot, smh)
In MK1, none of this applies. Since the assists in MK1 aren’t actually playable characters and don’t have an HP bar, them getting hit, as I stated earlier, just gives you a slap on the wrist. Which to reiterate is just the assist attack not finishing, and the assist recovery meter is lockedout for a few seconds. This is not at all a huge punishment by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, it’s more simply just inconvenient than anything else.
Then you take a look at what MK1’s version of assists, Kameos, can actually do. And as I stated earlier, they can do quite a lot. In fact, they can do just about everything any regular assist in an assist fighter can do. Ya know, extend combos, help apply pressure, make just about anything safe, gives you alternate zoning options, gives characters mixups that they don’t otherwise have, etc. So, while yes, the Kameos in MK1 for the most part do the same or similar things that assists in other assist fighters do, they become so much stronger when they have near constant access to ALL of their assist attacks and not just a pre-picked one. It being a 1v1 game where the risks for using these assists is virtually nonexistent is also a big factor in making them much stronger in MK1. AND you don’t have the luxury of having 2 more characters you can make a comeback with if one of your characters die to some crazy sequence of mixups, a huge damaging combo that they were able to do because they did a full screen fck neutral move that btw is safe thanks to your Kameo, or any other number of low risk high reward things you can do in MK1. Nor, btw, do you have all that much time to make said comeback anyway.
This severe lack of risk has been my main issue with Kameos since launch. But every time I would voice my concerns, I would get told to suck it up and that this is just how assist fighting games work. I have played several assist fighting games, like MvC2, MvC3/UMvC3, DBFZ, BlazBlue briefly when it first released, X-Men vs SF back in the day, and maybe more I’m forgetting. Even though I’m not an expert, I know how assist fighters operate. I actually got pretty good at MvC3 and DBFZ, and I want to get the MvC Fighting Collection especially for MvC2 since it has my favorite character of all time (Juggernaut of course) and I’ve seen some cool stuff people are doing with him on their “fun” teams. Anyway, Kameos do (kinda) operate similarly to assists in other games. The main problems are that Kameos have access to all of their assist moves, AND there’s very little to no risk in using them like there is these other assist fighting games.
But, maybe I’m completely wrong about something here. So I’d love to get some feedback. Like I said, even though I have a lot of experience playing assist based fighting games, I do NOT claim to be an expert on them. And I know this will likely be a controversial thread, so just take it easy. Be constructive with your disagreements and/or arguments. Oh and I know there’s a lot of stuff I didn’t mention. Like the limitation of assists in some of these assist fighters, the snap out or super jump mechanics, that assists are actually more vulnerable than your point character in a lot of these games and/or that damage scaling doesn’t apply to assists in some of these games (meaning every hit in or outside of a combo on assists does FULL damage), and a bunch more stuff. I just didn’t want to make this super long thread even longer than it already was because I realize most people don’t like reading long threads. Which I don’t necessarily blame them, especially having to read a Juggs thread.
But anywho, what are everyone’s thoughts about this?
