Khaos Reigns Patch Notes 9/24/2024 (via MK's Discord)

Patch notes being posted in MK's official Discord:

Spoiler: PC Steam & Epic Games Store

• Various fixes to improve game stability
• Added a new [High] value for the existing Motion Blur setting, with the previous [ON] setting now being noted as [Medium]
• Added AMD FSR 3 Image Reconstruction as an additional Upscaling option available
• Added a new graphical setting to disable the Film Grain effect
• Updated Nvidia DLSS Image Reconstruction plugin to version 3.7.1 and changed the Upscaling Preset used to C
• Implemented first pass of Razer RGB peripheral support for certain in-game sequences
• Reworked file structure to optimize future Patch download & install sizes (Note that additional optimization to reduce Patch install & download size is unlikely to be possible)
• Various UI fixes and improvements
• Various Mouse & Keyboard input device related fixes
• Resolved issues that occurred when using Low graphics settings
• Further optimized the PSO Shader Cache boot flow for certain hardware set-ups
• Updated PC Hardware System Spec information to reference more recent hardware and provide additional context for target Resolution & Settings

Spoiler: Khaos Reigns Content Update

• Additional Story Content has been added – Part 2: Khaos Reigns

Spoiler: Free Content Update

• Additionally, all Mortal Kombat 1 owners will have access to new Arenas, new Arena Variants, & Animalities, the fan-favorite finishing moves that haven’t been seen since the ‘90s, allowing fighters to channel their inner animals. These features will be available on September 24 as a FREE content update in conjunction with the Mortal Kombat 1: Khaos Reigns release.

Spoiler: General Fixes & Adjustments

Title updated to Khaos Reigns
• Implemented file compression to reduce game size for future patch releases (Note that this will require a larger download than usual for this Patch)
• Move list corrections & Localization fixes
• AI adjustments & improvements
• Improvements to Screen Reader functionality
• Added Cyrax Fighter to Roster
• Added Sektor Fighter to Roster
• Added Noob Saibot Fighter to Roster
• Added Wedding skin for Scorpion, Empress skin for Mileena & UMK3 skin for Sub-Zero
• Added several new Brutalities for players to discover
• Fixed several visual issues during brutalities
• Added Kameo ease of use information shown during Kameo Selection
• Fixed rare situations where a successful Up Block against a vulnerable attack would result in the defender still receiving block pushback
• Adjusted distance that Fighters move when performing a buffered backdash after an attack
• Fixed issue with offline consoles sometimes not retaining hotfix data that has been previously downloaded
• Fixed issue that could cause players in Invasions to not use the latest hotfix data

Spoiler: Invasions

• Added Towers of Time which now resides where the Gateway Mesa was
• You can now also enter Towers of Time from the Main Menu > Towers
• Added Towers of Time Challenges & Leaderboard with placement rewards
• Added Map to Mesa Pause Menu which shows pathways & key locations

Spoiler: Character Specific Adjustments

• Main Fighters
Ashrah
• Fixed Enhanced Light Ascension causing camera to become misaligned in certain situations
• Fixed Dark debuff lingering after Ashrah is defeated during an Endurance fight

Baraka
• (Air) Death Spin final hit now only auto-corrects if one of the previous hits connected

General Shao
• Fixed Reverse Treechopper damage scaling when interrupted using default interrupted damage scaling instead of command grab damage scaling
• Fixed sound effects missing in certain situations when hitting with Haymaker (Away + Front Kick, Back Punch)

Geras
• Factual Force (Towards + Front Kick) now causes a bounce hit reaction instead of a splat knockdown & recovers 8 frames faster on hit
• History Lesson now recovers 17 frames faster on miss

Havik
• Added new Move Nether Snatcher & Enhanced Nether Snatcher
• Added new Move (Air) Nether Stomp & (Air) Enhanced Nether Stomp
• Added new Move Enhanced Corpse Taunt
• Helping Hand & Enhanced Helping Hand now startup in 45 frames (down from 59)
• Helping Hand armor now starts on frame 6 (was frame 10)
• Enhanced Helping Hand now has a different hit reaction if used more than once in a combo
• Crucial Strike (Jump Back Punch, Back Kick) now has a different hit reaction
• Fixed issue with Enhanced Blood Bath visual effects displaying improperly in certain situations where gameplay is paused
• Fixed missing sound effects on Neoplasm when the projectile is parried

Johnny Cage
• Fixed issue with Wowing Out special move limit not being reset if a Kameo Summon is used as a cancel
Kitana
• Fixed visual issue with Fancy Flick causing ground impact effects after it has been parried

Kung Lao
• Added new Move (Air) Buzzsaw & Enhanced (Air) Buzzsaw
• Shaolin Spin can now move forward or backward while holding Front Kick button
• Enhanced Shaolin Spin has increased movement speed forward or backward when holding Front Kick button
• Enhanced Shaolin Shimmy no longer automatically performs follow-up attack on block
• Enhanced Shaolin Shimmy when blocked can perform follow-up attack for 1 bar of meter with Back Kick + Block

Li Mei
• Fixed rare issue with opponent facing incorrect direction briefly if Lion's Pounce (Cancel) (Towards + Front Kick, Hold Front Kick) is performed while they are knocked down
• Fixed issue with Sky Lantern moving to an incorrect location if used immediately before Fatal Blow

Liu Kang
• Added new Kombo Attack Volcanic Palm (Away + Back Punch, Front Punch)

Raiden
• Enhanced Lightning Port has less damage scaling and on hit disables the opponent's ability to Breaker or use a Kameo until they land
• Fixed Enhanced Lightning Port having a stricter input window compared to other special move cancels
• Fixed specific input sequence to execute Uppercut Jump Cancel causing Lightning Port to be performed instead

Scorpion
• Blazing Charge hit animation adjusted, now has 19 more frames of advantage on hit

Sindel
• Fixed incorrect attack coming out when performing a buffered attack after Bodied (Jump Back Punch, Back Kick)
• Fixed Kartwheel having incorrect frame data shown in Practice Mode

Smoke
• Increased hit region on Smoked Out (Up + Front Punch, Front Punch, Back Punch)
• Spin Kicks (Jump Front Kick, Back Kick) and Airing Out (Jump Front Kick, Back Kick, Back Kick) now will auto face
• Invisibility now goes away when hit by a parry attack
• Fixed Vicious Vapors having incorrect frame data generated in Practice Mode
• Fixed issue that could cause the camera to become misaligned if Smoke is interrupted during Everywhere (Back Punch, Front Punch, Back Punch) at certain timing

Shang Tsung
• Added new move Kameo Kopy & Enhanced Kameo Kopy
• Added new Kombo Attack Orthopedic Takedown (Away + Front Punch, Back Kick) (Old Form)
• Pulse Check (Front Punch, Back Punch, Back Kick) recovers 2 frames faster and can be 2in1 cancelled
• Snake Oil (Away + Back Punch in Young Form) starts up 2 frames slower and recovers 1 frame slower
• Operation (Away + Back Punch in Old Form) starts up 2 frames faster and has an adjusted hit reaction
• Bed of Spikes & Enhanced Bed of Spikes now appear faster
• Bed of Spikes recovers 1 frame faster on hit and 3 frames faster on block & miss
• Enhanced Bed of Spikes recovers 4 frames faster on hit and 5 frames faster on block & miss

Tanya
• Spinning Splits Kicks now has a different animation when it is blocked and no longer does follow-up attacks
• Divine Protection now parries projectiles and allows for follow-ups with max charge
• Deity Push now has a different hit reaction with increased damage scaling
• Seeking Guidance now takes 5 frames longer to charge each Guidance level (Enhanced Seeking Guidance is unchanged)
• During Heavenly Hand, holding Front Punch allows you to spend Guidance charge to increase projectile speed and damage
• During Spinning Split Kicks, holding Back Kick allows you to spend Guidance charge to become projectile invulnerable and perform all attacks on block
• During Drill Kick hit reaction, holding Away + Back Kick allows you to spend Guidance charge to perform Deity Push
• During Drill Kick hit reaction, holding Towards + Back Kick allows you to spend Guidance charge to perform Umgadi Evade
• Fixed issues with Guidance lingering in certain situations

Omni-Man
• Around The World (Towards + Back Punch) now causes a bounce hit reaction instead of a splat knockdown

Quan Chi
• Best Foot Backward (Down + Towards + Back Kick) tracking timing adjusted by 8 frames
• Fixed incorrect projectile being used by Psycho Skull after exiting Zone of Power
• Fixed visual issue with Psycho Skull causing ground impact effects after it has been parried
• Fixed visual issue with Zone of Waste lingering during brutalities

Homelander
• Fixed Diabolical Dash > The Seven Slam damage scaling when interrupted using default interrupted damage scaling instead of command grab damage scaling
• Fixed Diabolical Dash > The Seven Slam not doing additional damage against an opponent performing Up Block
• Fixed being able to move outside of the arena constraints briefly after hitting with (Air) Diabolical Dash > Vought Drop
• Fixed (Air) Delay God Complex not being possible when (Air) God Complex is performed at the lowest possible height
• Fixed issue with Flight speed being reduced after performing (Air) God Complex
• Fixed issue with endurance fights being delayed if (Air) Diabolical Dash > Vought Drop is used as the final hit on an opponent
• Fixed camera becoming misaligned during Blast Off when playing online and experiencing connection issues

Takeda
• Twisting Blades (Front Punch, Back Punch) first & second hit do 10 more damage
• Ogre Slayer (Front Punch, Back Punch, Back Punch + Back Kick) does 20 more damage
• Rising Suns (Towards + Front Punch, Back Punch) first hit does 10 more damage
• Ryujin (Towards + Front Punch, Back Punch, Back Punch + Back Kick) does 20 more damage
• Falling Moon (Towards + Front Punch, Back Kick) second hit does 20 more damage
• Gate Splitter (Away + Back Punch) has 1 more active frame and had its hitbox adjusted
• Temple Razer (Away + Back Punch, Front Punch) has 1 more active frame and had its hitbox adjusted
• Serpent's Tail (Towards + Back Punch) has a different hit reaction and can now be special cancelled
• Sparrow Strike (Jump + Back Punch, Back Kick) does 40 less damage
• Shooting Star does 10 more damage
• Smart Shuriken explosion does 10 more damage
• (Air) Rushing Nimbus Attack first attack does no damage scaling
• (Air) Enhanced Rushing Nimbus Attack does 30 more damage
• If an allied Kameo interrupts Takeda after Smart Shuriken has touched the ground, the Shuriken will no longer disappear
• Fixed clipping issues when Enhanced Rushing Nimbus Attack is performed near Frost (Kameo) Ice Wall
• Fixed missing visual effects when more than six Smart Shurikens are used in rapid succession

Spoiler: Kameo Fighters

Cyrax (Kameo)
• Self-Destruct no longer lingers when the round ends
• Fixed Horizontal Kopter Chopper chosen hit direction not working in certain circumstances during juggles

Darrius (Kameo)
• Ground Invitational and Army of Two can now be performed after Volleyballistic
• Fixed Army of Two attack going in the wrong direction under certain circumstances
• Fixed Heelturn being possible for an extended period of time if the opponent remains idle after being knocked down
• Fixed several situations where Darrius would not take damage or cause recharge delay when he is interrupted
• Fixed situation that could cause Volleyballistic to be possible from very far distance from his partner

Frost (Kameo)
• Fixed Ice Krash & Frosty's Revenge not being possible as a reversal
• Fixed visual issues that could occur with Ice Krash when performed on The Pyramid Arena Top Variant

Goro (Kameo)
• Fixed Punch Walk cancelled into Shokan Stomp causing slight damage to Goro's Partner
• Punch Walk can no longer be cancelled into other Kameo moves while Kameos are disabled

Jax (Kameo)
• Added new move Gotcha Grab

Kano (Kameo)
• Eye Laser now has multiple hits when blocked & has a longer recharge delay

Kung Lao (Kameo)
• Added new moves Orbiting Hat & Wobbly Hat
• Spin can no longer sometimes auto face during the first few frames
• Buzz Saw can no longer sometimes auto face during the first few frames

Motaro (Kameo)
• Fixed issue when Reflect parries a non-reflectable projectile that allowed the opponent to block punishes during their recovery
• Fixed rare instances of missing visual & sound effects when Motaro is hit by certain attacks

Sektor (Kameo)
• Added alternate Fatal Blow attack by pressing R1 during startup
• Activate Homing is now performed by holding R1
• Tele-Punch starts up 2 frames faster
• Fixed visual issue with Up Rocket causing ground impact effects after it has been parried

Shujinko (Kameo)
• Added new move Kingdoms Krumble
• Added new move Waterfall Chop
• Fixed interrupting Shujinko during Death's Embrace (Ermac) causing an excessively long recovery for his partner

Sonya (Kameo)
• Added new moves (Air) Ricochet Dive Kick & (Air) Bicycle Kick follow-up attack
• Sonya is now vulnerable for 17 more frames after Leg Grab misses

Sub-Zero (Kameo)
• Added new moves Deep Freeze & Iceball Special
• Fixed visual effects issues when partner misses with their Fatal Blow

Stryker (Kameo)
• Low Grenade Toss & High Grenade Toss have different hit reactions and less damage scaling

Tremor (Kameo)
• Crystal Wall Punch is now mid (was high)

Khameleon (Kameo)
• Added new move Alternate Disguises
• If either of the first two hits during Roll are Up Blocked, the final hit will not come out
• Fan Toss can no longer sometimes auto face during the first few frames
• Fixed issue with Glaive return attack not using correct hit reaction facing if the opponent jumped over

Mavado (Kameo)
• Fixed animation issue with Nomad's Touch when performed near corner while roster fighter has their back to the screen

Ferra (Kameo)
• Torr Stance: Slide! has 2 more recovery frames on block
• Ferra is now considered airborne during Yo-Yo Throw, Swings!, & Potato Sack Toss

 

Of course, they are.

But I have been arguing quantity.

Feel free to stop avoiding the bulk of my argument at any time.

You said "high-level players". Tekken did not have 1600 high-level players at CB. And the majority of our top players have been competing.

It just feels forced at this point, like finding any way possible to down your own scene.

 

No one is saying you should like the game. But all this narrative weaving is sad. Very sad.

Here is what is very sad...

I agree that tournament turn outs could be better, of course.

Not could.

Should.

Mortal Kombat should be held to the same standards as Street Fighter and Tekken.

Unfortunately, many people in the NRS community are more interested in making excuses for WB and NRS than demanding a better product.

For as long as a considerable section of the community engages in apologia, Mortal Kombat will continue being a competitive failure.

 

Mortal Kombat should be held to the same standards as Street Fighter and Tekken.

Unfortunately, many people in the NRS community are more interested in making excuses for WB and NRS than demanding a better product.

For as long as a considerable section of the community engages in apologia, Mortal Kombat will continue being a competitive failure.

You do realize that even if every single competitive MK player all collectively complained and “demanded” a better product, NRS probably wouldn’t change anything… right? All of us combined probably make up less than 1% of total sales for their games. Why would they care what we demand?

 

You do realize that even if every single competitive MK player all collectively complained and “demanded” a better product, NRS probably wouldn’t change anything… right? All of us combined probably make up less than 1% of total sales for their games. Why would they care what we demand?

This talking point has been debunked a thousand times.

Yes, the players who travel to play and/or who regularly participate in online tournament make up less than 1% of the total audience.

However, the players who regularly watch fighting game content represent a far larger percentage.

While nobody knows what this exact percentage is, fighting game companies would not provide early access to top content creators if they did not believe that doing so were profitable in the long term.

So, yes, I do think that people en mass can make a difference, even with a developer as stubborn as NRS.

 

This talking point has been debunked a thousand times.

Yes, the players who travel to play and/or who regularly participate in online tournament make up less than 1% of the total audience.

However, the players who regularly watch fighting game content represent a far larger percentage.

While nobody knows what this exact percentage is, fighting game companies would not provide early access to top content creators if they did not believe that doing so were profitable in the long term.

So, yes, I do think that people en mass can make a difference, even with a developer as stubborn as NRS.

How exactly has it been “debunked”?

What does people who watch fighting game content have to do with anything? Like I’m confused, are you actually asserting that only competitive players like watching FG content? Or that even the majority of the viewers are competitive players?

I realize you’re suggesting that these content creators can make a call to action to their viewers and that that would make a difference. But even if it was our biggest competitive MK content creator SonicFox. And even if for arguments sake I granted that every single viewer of his was a comp player, he gets around 30k views per video on average. That’s still less than 1% of the overall sales of MK1.

You would have to round up all the top competitive MK content creators, say that hypothetically every viewer was a competitive player, say that there were zero overlap in viewers aka every viewer was a unique viewer, add up all the averages of their videos combined, and then you MAY hit around 5% of the total sales for MK1. And that’s only IF you do all the aforementioned things.

Anyway, those are the top competitive MK content creators. And even if they went Captain Planet and combined all their powers, it still wouldn’t be very many people comparatively. So, regular community members demanding anything from NRS for sure wouldn’t do anything.

To be clear, I am not saying anyone has to settle for a bad product or mediocrity. And I’m not saying you shouldn’t be demanding for a quality product. But to suggest that the problem has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with members of the community “engaging in apologia”, that is pure delusion and simply just isn’t true.

 

How exactly has it been “debunked”?

What does people who watch fighting game content have to do with anything? Like I’m confused, are you actually asserting that only competitive players like watching FG content? Or that even the majority of the viewers are competitive players?

I realize you’re suggesting that these content creators can make a call to action to their viewers and that that would make a difference. But even if it was our biggest competitive MK content creator SonicFox. And even if for arguments sake I granted that every single viewer of his was a comp player, he gets around 30k views per video on average. That’s still less than 1% of the overall sales of MK1.

You would have to round up all the top competitive MK content creators, say that hypothetically every viewer was a competitive player, say that there were zero overlap in viewers aka every viewer was a unique viewer, add up all the averages of their videos combined, and then you MAY hit around 5% of the total sales for MK1. And that’s only IF you do all the aforementioned things.

Anyway, those are the top competitive MK content creators. And even if they went Captain Planet and combined all their powers, it still wouldn’t be very many people comparatively. So, regular community members demanding anything from NRS for sure wouldn’t do anything.

To be clear, I am not saying anyone has to settle for a bad product or mediocrity. And I’m not saying you shouldn’t be demanding for a quality product. But to suggest that the problem has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with members of the community “engaging in apologia”, that is pure delusion and simply just isn’t true.

What Dave is trying to say is that when it comes to competative side of the game,balance decisions,gameplay adjustments, the developers tend to prioritize the input and suggestions of competative players and the hardcore players/viewers that participate/engage with the pro competitions even though the total percentage they make up in total sales is low.

So if you have competative community figure heads saying this shit is the greatest game i ever tocuched, omg nrs you guys are incredible etc. , And this was indeed the case when the game launched and in the beta periods, the developers will take priority in these comments and think the system is satisfying and we dont need to make drastic changes or do alot of work to it.

It definetly impacts the decision making to an extent,specifically in the core gameplay system parts of the game.

In the beta periods all top players complained that sub zero is broken beyond belief.On release sub zero was the only gutted character,johmny and kenshi retained their beta versions pretty much to the full extent and they remained some of the top of the top characters to this day.

In the beta periods community figure heads were singing praise to Nrs calling mk1 mk9 with kameos that the games is so sick its almost ubelivable.

This was a signal to nrs ok well mission acomplished this is the game the pro players say its the greatest game ever, job well done,allocate resources to other projects.


So yeah it defintly doesnt help when apologists lable any form of crticism as hate and lies and praise the game/ product no matter what the devs do always saying yeah this is the best thing i ever experianced.

 

Here is what is very sad...



Not could.

Should.

Mortal Kombat should be held to the same standards as Street Fighter and Tekken.

Unfortunately, many people in the NRS community are more interested in making excuses for WB and NRS than demanding a better product.

For as long as a considerable section of the community engages in apologia, Mortal Kombat will continue being a competitive failure.

I wouldn't say it was a competitive failure at all. COTR, Rip's Arena, Kollosseum, TNS get consistent attendance. Top players still travel to things like Dreamhack, Frosty Faustings, etc.

As long as people are willing to play and travel, the game isn't going anywhere. It'll be at next year's EVO, it will be at every Major this year and likely next, people will still play it.

NRS players have a very bad habit of declaring their games "dead" or "dying."

It happened with MK9, Injustice, MKX, so on and so forth, but as long as people are willing to play it, it's not going to die.

MK11 lasted four years and it didn't have a ton of support. People will play what they like.

 

First of all, top players yell a lot in every fighting game, which is why I am not interested in the rhetoric as much as I am interested in actions.

I do not appeal to authority. I criticized Ninja Killa's talking points more than anybody else in this thread.

I realize that Arslan Ash and Knee have complained about Tekken 8, particularly the early iterations of the game, but unlike Mortal Kombat 1 high level players, Tekken 8 high level players come out and play despite the complaints.

For example, Tekken 8 attracted over 1,600 participants at this year's Combo Breaker. Mortal Kombat 1 had 200+ measly players in its home state. This egregious number should have led to more criticism, but the apologists continue making excuses on behalf of WB and NRS.

Second of all, no player in Tekken 8 (or Mortal Kombat 1) is winning because of "casino" gameplay. By and large, the same top players who were winning in the previous games are winning in the current games. My argument has never been that Mortal Kombat is volatile or scrubby, so this talking point is moot.

Statistically and objectively speaking, the weaker characters in Tekken 8 win more than in Mortal Kombat 1 because the power levels are higher and the competition is superior. Tekken 8 is an infinitely better designed fighting game, which is why the tournament numbers are what they are.

I'm talking more about the part where you said lower tier characters are more likely to win in Tekken in tournaments than they are in MK1, which is true, and right after saying it your next sentence was :

"Such feats can never happen in Mortal Kombat 1 for multiple reasons, one of which is the low power levels." I don't think this is necessarily a good thing if it's because they are powered up in a dumb way, which is what I think is the case.

This is one of the main problems I have with Tekken is that sometimes it feels like you lose to someone that you clearly have better knowledge and fundamentals than because their character is able to be so unga bunga in the game that they were able to "outplay you". In Tekken 7 it felt like the upsets were less frequent by a decent amount. I've heard some people say "players get better, new players arrive, etc", but I think the game is TOO overturned which lowers the skill ceiling and allows some random to win matches that they shouldn't be winning. GGST is also guilty of this. In Tekken, you can pick up some low tiers and be pretty decent in a few days whereas in MK1 you'll really need to learn the characters and outplay someone using high tiers if you're close to their level. At the highest level, a dedicated low tier user can perform better against a high tier character due to the overall design lowering the skill gap, unlike Tekken 7 where the skill gap was massive.

Ill say it another way, if I told you "Dave bet me $100 that you can select my character and I can take them to Tekken King rank in Tekken by next Saturday", you wouldn't make the bet because you know I'll win. Once you learn the game if you have strong FG Exp it's very easy to get any character you want to Gold Rank before you start playing the Top 4% online and have to actually play harder and learn MUs/deeper character/etc. If I say "Dave bet me $100 that you can pick any character and I'll get them to God rank by next Saturday in MK1" you probably would make the bet and win it because it's a lot harder if you have never played the character. I think you're coming from a position of "this high power is a good thing", but I actually think it's Tekken's biggest weakness, that power, specifically offensive power, is way too overturned and done in the wrong way.

And this isn't a knock against Tekken, I still play all the time, played Tekken at Evo, gonna run it again at a couple of offline tournaments soon including CEOTaku coming up. It's a great game. But I honestly hate how strong so many characters are because of how they are designed to "be" strong and it feels more "dumb" than strong. I've been playing Alisa these days, so I'm more guilty than anyone abusing the game, but that's how it's played. I think the current MK1 "they're strong but not too busted Cyrax Top Tier, Geras low tier" is much closer to ideal power levels than Dragonuv/Nina tier vs Asuka/Azucena tier.

 

How exactly has it been “debunked”?

What does people who watch fighting game content have to do with anything? Like I’m confused, are you actually asserting that only competitive players like watching FG content? Or that even the majority of the viewers are competitive players?

I realize you’re suggesting that these content creators can make a call to action to their viewers and that that would make a difference. But even if it was our biggest competitive MK content creator SonicFox. And even if for arguments sake I granted that every single viewer of his was a comp player, he gets around 30k views per video on average. That’s still less than 1% of the overall sales of MK1.

You would have to round up all the top competitive MK content creators, say that hypothetically every viewer was a competitive player, say that there were zero overlap in viewers aka every viewer was a unique viewer, add up all the averages of their videos combined, and then you MAY hit around 5% of the total sales for MK1. And that’s only IF you do all the aforementioned things.

Anyway, those are the top competitive MK content creators. And even if they went Captain Planet and combined all their powers, it still wouldn’t be very many people comparatively. So, regular community members demanding anything from NRS for sure wouldn’t do anything.

To be clear, I am not saying anyone has to settle for a bad product or mediocrity. And I’m not saying you shouldn’t be demanding for a quality product. But to suggest that the problem has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with members of the community “engaging in apologia”, that is pure delusion and simply just isn’t true.

Disagree with this because I think it matters a lot. I'll give you the best example because you were around for it.

During MKX, there were MANY PEOPLE, online, on this site, etc defending the netcode saying it wasn't bad, make sure you're wired, maybe it's your Internet mine is perfect, etc. The netcode was hot garbage, but there were still people blindly defending it because they refused to criticize anything after the game was getting heat about the offensive meta change from MK9. That is the prime example of apologist sabotaging themselves.

If everyone with community voices like top players, content creators, etc etc would have went along and just went "yes i agree, the netcode actually is really good, only fringe haters don't like it" (which early on some of them literally tried to do if you remember and got blown up for it) we would have never gotten the mid-game massively updated netcode that was infinitely better. The apologist position has always been a terrible position to have as a consumer of pretty much anything in existence that you pay for.

 

Disagree with this because I think it matters a lot. I'll give you the best example because you were around for it.

During MKX, there were MANY PEOPLE, online, on this site, etc defending the netcode saying it wasn't bad, make sure you're wired, maybe it's your Internet mine is perfect, etc. The netcode was hot garbage, but there were still people blindly defending it because they refused to criticize anything after the game was getting heat about the offensive meta change from MK9. That is the prime example of apologist sabotaging themselves.

If everyone with community voices like top players, content creators, etc etc would have went along and just went "yes i agree, the netcode actually is really good, only fringe haters don't like it" (which early on some of them literally tried to do if you remember and got blown up for it) we would have never gotten the mid-game massively updated netcode that was infinitely better. The apologist position has always been a terrible position to have as a consumer of pretty much anything in existence that you pay for.

People that care about their work, such as most devs, tend to want to hear about the problems as well. They might not get the time or budget to fix it, but knowing is better than not. Just saying everything's fine really helps no one.

 

Disagree with this because I think it matters a lot. I'll give you the best example because you were around for it.

During MKX, there were MANY PEOPLE, online, on this site, etc defending the netcode saying it wasn't bad, make sure you're wired, maybe it's your Internet mine is perfect, etc. The netcode was hot garbage, but there were still people blindly defending it because they refused to criticize anything after the game was getting heat about the offensive meta change from MK9. That is the prime example of apologist sabotaging themselves.

If everyone with community voices like top players, content creators, etc etc would have went along and just went "yes i agree, the netcode actually is really good, only fringe haters don't like it" (which early on some of them literally tried to do if you remember and got blown up for it) we would have never gotten the mid-game massively updated netcode that was infinitely better. The apologist position has always been a terrible position to have as a consumer of pretty much anything in existence that you pay for.

The netcode issue wasn’t just a competitive game quality issue. It was a big problem that effected everyone who played the game online.

Also, I don’t remember that many defending the bad netcode pre-patch. I do remember people saying that there’s things individuals can do to help their connection in the meantime like being wired though. And NRS actually patched the netcode and drastically improved it precisely because it was an issue that effected everyone who played online. Clearly the few saying that the netcode was fine made no impact on NRS’ decision.

Anyway, it seems some of you are drastically misunderstanding what is being discussed here. I actually edited my post several times adding and taking away something along the lines of “to be ultra clear to those who may not be following the discussion. I’m not talking about the communities ability to effect balance changes, we definitely can make an impact in that regard” or something to that effect. But I ultimately decided to remove it because I felt the context of the conversation was clear enough so that further qualifiers weren’t necessary

Dave claimed that MK would remain a poor quality product and a competitive failure as long as there were members of the comp community defending the game. I responded rejecting that claim because as far as the overall quality of the game is concerned, NRS isn’t going to move mountains for such a tiny % of their sales. Again, to reiterate, I’m not talking about balance changes, nor am I talking about severe issues that effect the majority of players like unplayable netcode, game breaking glitches, etc, NRS undoubtedly takes feedback into consideration. And I also made sure I stated clearly that “To be clear, I am not saying anyone has to settle for a bad product or mediocrity. And I’m not saying you shouldn’t be demanding for a quality product. But to suggest that the problem has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with members of the (comp) community “engaging in apologia”, that is pure delusion and simply just isn’t true”.

So, to qualify further, I am NOT saying that feedback isn’t important, that NRS doesn’t take feedback into consideration, that you shouldn’t demand a quality product, that you should be content with whatever you’re given, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

Anyway, hope this helps!

 

What Dave is trying to say is that when it comes to competative side of the game,balance decisions,gameplay adjustments, the developers tend to prioritize the input and suggestions of competative players and the hardcore players/viewers that participate/engage with the pro competitions even though the total percentage they make up in total sales is low.

So if you have competative community figure heads saying this shit is the greatest game i ever tocuched, omg nrs you guys are incredible etc. , And this was indeed the case when the game launched and in the beta periods, the developers will take priority in these comments and think the system is satisfying and we dont need to make drastic changes or do alot of work to it.

It definetly impacts the decision making to an extent,specifically in the core gameplay system parts of the game.

In the beta periods all top players complained that sub zero is broken beyond belief.On release sub zero was the only gutted character,johmny and kenshi retained their beta versions pretty much to the full extent and they remained some of the top of the top characters to this day.

In the beta periods community figure heads were singing praise to Nrs calling mk1 mk9 with kameos that the games is so sick its almost ubelivable.

This was a signal to nrs ok well mission acomplished this is the game the pro players say its the greatest game ever, job well done,allocate resources to other projects.


So yeah it defintly doesnt help when apologists lable any form of crticism as hate and lies and praise the game/ product no matter what the devs do always saying yeah this is the best thing i ever experianced.

Sonic said he didn’t want the original Cyrax kameo to be nerfed, and it was nerfed. I think that’s a great example of the fact that there are lots of different opinions and devs just do what they want to do.

As of now, most top players are saying that this is the best the game has ever been. But they also have specific wishlists. It’s not like you can only either do one, or the other.

And if NRS has an existing roadmap of changes, they’re going to make those changes regardless. Stuff gets decided months before it makes it into the game.

I think this whole thing gets blown out of proportion, and people don’t realize that game devs do listen to a lot of feedback, but ultimately they use their own judgement.

 

Sonic said he didn’t want the original Cyrax kameo to be nerfed, and it was nerfed. I think that’s a great example of the fact that there are lots of different opinions and devs just do what they want to do.

As of now, most top players are saying that this is the best the game has ever been. But they also have specific wishlists. It’s not like you can only either do one, or the other.

And if NRS has an existing roadmap of changes, they’re going to make those changes regardless. Stuff gets decided months before it makes it into the game.

I think this whole thing gets blown out of proportion, and people don’t realize that game devs do listen to a lot of feedback, but ultimately they use their own judgement.

Which is why i said to an extent.

Nobody is disputing companies having an internal pipeline of changes/fixes etc.

But if you tell a bussiness that their product is flawless, while the reality is that it isnt and it has tons of flaws, you are contributing to the product staying flawed.its very simple.

Yeah stuff gets decided in advance,exactly right. Which is why skewed feedback by apologist/shill behaviour can delay neccessary and important changes by months or even make it so the change never happens, as timeframes matter.

The negative impact of it is very real and as much as you would say its being blown out of proportions,i would say it tends to also get downplayed to a similair degree as well as it differs from company to company/game to game.

 

But if you tell a bussiness that their product is flawless, while the reality is that it isnt and it has tons of flaws, you are contributing to the product staying flawed.its very simple.

Who has said MK1 is perfect and/or “flawless”? Maybe it has happened, but I definitely haven’t seen it

Yeah stuff gets decided in advance,exactly right. Which is why skewed feedback by apologist/shill behaviour can delay neccessary and important changes by months or even make it so the change never happens, as timeframes matter.

You keep speaking in generalities and are being vague. Do you have any examples of this ever actually happening with MK1? Like, what necessary and important changes are being delayed by people saying they enjoy the game? I’m genuinely curious

 

Who has said MK1 is perfect and/or “flawless”? Maybe it has happened, but I definitely haven’t seen it


You keep speaking in generalities and are being vague. Do you have any examples of this ever actually happening with MK1? Like, what necessary and important changes are being delayed by people saying they enjoy the game? I’m genuinely curious

Cmon dude...

You never saw prominent community members, which opinions matter to nrs more,talk about the game in a very embelished way? In many of the games aspects,from balance,depth,the kameo system etc

Never saw people on here and in the competative player base be at the ready to defend nrs for any mishap? Infinte excuses at the ready.


When people defend the meta,when they say balancing is in a good spot,when the character and kameo reletionship is being defended, just to name a few things and keep things withing the competative/gameplay mechanics side of things.

Like cmon man,you really never saw it?

 

But if you tell a bussiness that their product is flawless, while the reality is that it isnt and it has tons of flaws, you are contributing to the product staying flawed.its very simple.

I really haven't seen anybody saying this (really about any FG). Not to say it's never happened, but I definitely haven't seen it.

 

NRS players have a very bad habit of declaring their games "dead" or "dying."

I admit that Mortal Kombat 1's online scene has remained consistent.

The offline scene has most certainly been dying for the last six months.

I see no reason to reiterate the numbers for the tenth time in this thread because people like you and Crimson obviously could not care less about facts and statistics.

You want players to blindly support the game for the sake of "community growth", but I refuse to pledge my allegiance to a game that I consider kusoge.

I would be ecstatic to support this franchise if NRS implemented higher power levels, reinstated character archetypes, particularly zoning and defensive ones, included a new gameplay mechanic to ever so slightly alter the meta, etc.

This is one of the main problems I have with Tekken is that sometimes it feels like you lose to someone that you clearly have better knowledge and fundamentals than because their character is able to be so unga bunga in the game that they were able to "outplay you".

There is no evidence to make the claim that Tekken 8 is volatile.

The same top players who were winning in Tekken 7 are winning in Tekken 8. The exceptions are virtually nonexistent.

Mortal Kombat X is one of the most volatile fighting games released in the past ten years, but even its tournament results were highly consistent.

If you are referring to ranked mode, the majority of players are losing to incessant knowledge checks and lack of match up experience, which is a separate discussion.

Case in point, Kuma/Panda have the highest overall win percentage because they are an obscure match up. However, at very high ranks, they have the worst win percentage. Obviously, players at Tekken God and above are familiar with the match up.

I enjoy Tekken 8 in part because of its high power levels. Tekken 7 ended up nerfing too many characters at the end of its lifespan somewhat leading to a boring and predictable meta.

 

You never saw prominent community members, which opinions matter to nrs more,talk about the game in a very embelished way? In many of the games aspects,from balance,depth,the kameo system etc

Never saw people on here and in the competative player base be at the ready to defend nrs for any mishap? Infinte excuses at the ready.

Who? Basically every Top Player and content creator has been griping about some aspect of the game from jump, nothing wrong with that but I ain't seen this defense force a bunch of y'all talk about.

 

I see no reason to reiterate the numbers for the tenth time in this thread because people like you and Crimson obviously could not care less about facts and statistics.

I think we're some of the only ones who actually know the facts and statistics.

Like, no one wants to talk about MKX numbers a year into the game (April 2016) or MK11 numbers a year in (Frosty Faustings was the last event pre-pandemic). They just want to make up stuff like "the scene is dead" with no reference point.

 

I admit that Mortal Kombat 1's online scene has remained consistent.

The offline scene has most certainly been dying for the last six months.

I see no reason to reiterate the numbers for the tenth time in this thread because people like you and Crimson obviously could not care less about facts and statistics.

You want players to blindly support the game for the sake of "community growth", but I refuse to pledge my allegiance to a game that I consider kusoge.

I would be ecstatic to support this franchise if NRS implemented higher power levels, reinstated character archetypes, particularly zoning and defensive ones, included a new gameplay mechanic to ever so slightly alter the meta, etc.



There is no evidence to make the claim that Tekken 8 is volatile.

The same top players who were winning in Tekken 7 are winning in Tekken 8. The exceptions are virtually nonexistent.

Mortal Kombat X is one of the most volatile fighting games released in the past ten years, but even its tournament results were highly consistent.

If you are referring to ranked mode, the majority of players are losing to incessant knowledge checks and lack of match up experience, which is a separate discussion.

Case in point, Kuma/Panda have the highest overall win percentage because they are an obscure match up. However, at very high ranks, they have the worst win percentage. Obviously, players at Tekken God and above are familiar with the match up.

I enjoy Tekken 8 in part because of its high power levels. Tekken 7 ended up nerfing too many characters at the end of its lifespan somewhat leading to a boring and predictable meta.

You've yet to prove anything about "low power levels" other than, "Top tiers don't do well and don't have strong offense" which was completely debunked earlier. And hey, bottom 3 Geras JUST got second at a regional. You know, the thing you said never happens in this game.

And no, most of us don't compare our tournament numbers with Street Fighter, because we're not insecure and seek validation to play what we like.

The offline scene isn't dying or dead. Top players are still traveling for it(despite you saying they weren't which has been proven false).

If you ACTUALLY cared about the scene(you don't) you'd actually contribute.

Content creators like Rip's Arena, Destroyer, and Mr. Aquaman do more to contribute to the scene than you and Tom's whiney podcast ever could. And no Dave, no one cares about what you did in the 1970's with Injustice or MKX.

They actually provide spaces for people to play, cash prizes, they're pillars of the community. What they do is what supporting the scene and community actually looks like.

You and Tom, on the other hand, build nothing. You support nothing. You only criticize, lie, and create false narratives.

Now I know you like putting words in people's mouths so let me be clear:

I like the game. I think it's fun. I think it has gotten better with every patch and update. The online scene is doing well and while the offline scene could be better, it's far from dead. People travel for it. They compete for it. That's all you can ask for.

No one is saying there aren't problems or that the game is perfect, but doing nothing but burning straw men does nothing to change those things.

 

Who? Basically every Top Player and content creator has been griping about some aspect of the game from jump, nothing wrong with that but I ain't seen this defense force a bunch of y'all talk about.

Enjoying the game is "defense force" behavior to these fuckin' losers.

 

You've yet to prove anything about "low power levels" other than, "Top tiers don't do well and don't have strong offense" which was completely debunked earlier. And hey, bottom 3 Geras JUST got second at a regional. You know, the thing you said never happens in this game.

I have never said that top tier characters lack strong offense in Mortal Kombat 1. I have partially explained my position on Mortal Kombat 1's meta in this post.

As far as Geras is concerned, octuple the number of participants as well as the quality of competition in an offline tournament in which low and mid tier characters consistently perform, welcome to Street Fighter 6 and Tekken 8.

Least we forget that the two high-stakes Mortal Kombat 1 tournaments thus far, EVO and Final Kombat respectively, resulted in mirror matches in the grand finals.

And no, most of us don't compare our tournament numbers with Street Fighter, because we're not insecure and seek validation to play what we like.

Of course, you are entitled to play whatever you like, but you are not entitled to hold Mortal Kombat 1 to the same standards as Under Night In-Birth II Sys: Celes based on Mortal Kombat's sales, popularity, and cultural impact.

As I have already stated, I hold Mortal Kombat to the same standards as Street Fighter and Tekken.

I refuse to lower my expectations in order to apologize for WB/NRS and/or promote "community growth".

And no Dave, no one cares about what you did in the 1970's with Injustice or MKX.

I never placed in Injustice 1 or Mortal Kombat X.

I mean, I wish I had. LOL.

You evidently lack the knowledge to comment on the history of NRS's fighting games, so I suggest that you stop presenting yourself as an authority on this subject (and several others).

If you ACTUALLY cared about the scene(you don't) you'd actually contribute.

Tom and I (and more so Tom than I) supported the scene for multiple years when you were in your diapers.

However, I do not believe that Tom or I are owed respect based on legacy.

Neither is WB/NRS.

When they design a fighting game that is not kusoge, I will support the product and, by extension, the community.

 

@M2Dave when is the last time you played MK1? Have you competed at all, even at a local level?

Just curious.

 

Least we forget that the two high-stakes Mortal Kombat 1 tournaments thus far, EVO and Final Kombat respectively, resulted in mirror matches in the grand finals.

To be fair, the game has changed a lot since then.

kusoge

Need to change your name to Kusoge2Dave

 

@M2Dave when is the last time you played MK1?

Last week in Kombat League.

Have you competed at all, even at a local level?

Everything has been dead locally since Mortal Kombat 11.

I traveled to CEO, but I only entered Tekken 8.

Throughout Mortal Kombat 9, Injustice 1, and Mortal Kombat X, Cleveland used to have one of the best NRS scenes in the country.

Tom came out to play Mortal Kombat 9.

Weekly gatherings were common during Injustice 1 (i.e., King, King Jr., Playing to Win, THTB, Master D., me, etc.)

King visited and brought the YOMI boys for some Mortal Kombat X casual sessions.

Fun and memorable times.