Shang Tsung General Discussion

[Marinjuana]

Someone should test if Bed of Spikes or EX is plus or convertible after a long knockdown like b223

 

[LEGEND]

Someone should test if Bed of Spikes or EX is plus or convertible after a long knockdown like b223

Good thinking.

Tested:
EX Spike can be around +40 on hit when done in the corner but still cannot link into a combo

Mid screen, Regular Spikes are -5 on block when used as meaty and EX are about +17.

 

[UghGetOuttaHere]

A quick round up of all the Kameo moves

Janet: 15 frame, low profiling nut punch. -16 to -19 depending on spacing. 6% damage and restands on hit. EX stuns for a combo.

Jax: 41 frame unblockable ground pound. EX hits full screen. 5% Damage

Kano: 22 Frame high hitting eye laser. Hella punishable. EX is mid. Seems lackluster overall unless I'm missing something.

Khameleon: Just the Mirror armor. . . Idk

Kung Lao: 12 Frame mid spin. -22 on block. EX Launches.

Mavado: 21 Frame full screen low low slide. -19 on block. EX seems to have the OTH properties but nothing else, and is 5% instead of the regular 7%

Motaro: Slow ass Teleport. I must be missing something. . .seems useless.

Sareena: 11 frame mid. -16 on block. EX makes it 7 frames which is nuts when paired with an ambush Kameo for combos.

Scorpion: 26 frame overhead, 8% damage, -14 on block. EX has the same hit stun as the Kameo overhead.

Sektor: 28 frame Teleport Uppercut. Can be done in the Air at 21 frames. -14 on block. EX Launches on hit.

Shujinko: Start meditating which recharges Kameo meter. Can hold down to be closer to the ground. EX is a command run. Not sure if the command run is + on block off anything but you can link normals to the command run and loop it al a SF6 Ken.

Sonya: 18 frame overhead. -20 on block. 6% Damage. EX Launches.

Stryker: 22 Frame overhead. -10 or 11 on block based on spacing.(Has good range) 8% Damage. EX Launches.

Sub-Zero: 16 frame mid shoulder charge that goes about max jump distance. 14 active frames. -11 on block at point blank but it'll be safe at most situation were you'd want to use it. At max distance it is +1 on block. EX can Launch if used with an ambush Kameo.

Tremor: 14 frame high. Good range. Can be about -5 at max distance but it's difficult to space it. Probably punishable most of the time. -9 to -11 on block is most likely. 8% damage. EX is the rock uppercut which hits mid and launches, -14 on block.

Cyrax: Shoots the net. 32 frame startup. Starts being plus on block at about jump distance. Full screen it's +15 on block which means a Ground Skull follow up is a frame trap. Capture state on hit like you'd expect. EX is 25 frame startup, is typically 1 frame better on block and drains meter.

Darrius: 28 Frame mid with ok range 8% Damage on hit but can lead to a combo with a Kameo like Janet. -10 to -13 on block. EX Launches on hit.

Ferra: high hitting command grab for 10% damage. Great range. EX just hits mid and is not a command grab? -26 on block. Eh.

Frost: (can be done in the air) 16 Frame Mid. -17 on block. 7% damage on hit. EX Launches. Has decent range though so it might be hard for some characters to punish.

Goro: 15 frame high. Punch walk. -5 on block, 8% Damage on hit, 3.5% on block. EX let's you extend the hits on block? That's it? Good chip damage I guess.

Common theme is that they are fast and have good range but are punish on block if used carelessly.

This probably deserves it's own thread after being a bit more fleshed out.

Whoops wouldn't have made a cheat sheet if I knew you were on the job

 

[LEGEND]

Kameo choice is still so unsolved to me. Hardly feel like I'm making the right choice. Its so player and matchup dependent.

General rules so far are MUs like Cage, Baraka or anyone that easily bypasses zoning and punishes skull's easily you'll want Kano/Stryker.

Everyone else you can opt for Sonya or Mavado.

Some exceptions here as I think Sonya is randomly good at keeping Sektor from abusing the air. And any opponent that is on a Kameo that grants you mix should probably be met with Kano/Stryker for the added safety.

There are so many one-off exceptions I've thought of already and probably many more to figure out. So many niche setups and combos to learn.

 

[LEGEND]

I think Darrius is still the best Kameo against competent opponents.

So many characters can play in between ground skull zones and lame you out. You need a Kameo that gives you an extra dimension to offense.

Kano/Stryker can help with this but only if you are fighting against someone that is on a Kameo that gives you an overhead. Otherwise they end up being slight zoning support. Even fairly bad players are flawless blocking F4 so the chip string loop is fairly pointless.
-
Here are some general Label/Categories for the Kameo picks:

Scrub Killer: Stryker/Kano/Goro

Counter Pick based on Opponent's Kameo: Kano/Stryker/Goro

Generic Good-Stuff: Sonya/Mavado

Optimal: Darrius

 

[LEGEND]

Working on a complete list of counter picks. Due to some Kameo steals being able to launch if picked up by Mavado UK or FK. Or ambush Kameo's making Mixups safe. I'll update this post later and probably make a thread for it.

KAMEOS COUNTER PICKS:

Opponent picks Sareena: Pick Mavado
- Reason: Get very consistent punishes as regular DF4 is 11 frames and decent range. EX is 7 frames, allowing you to punish all D1's and various other common pokes, strings and overheads. Mavado picks up the DF4 on hit for good damage.

Opponent picks Sub-Zero: Pick Mavado
- Reason: DF4 has good range and is safe on block at a distance. Great for checking people that mindlessly move in after putting up the Sub Kameo's Ice Armor. Mavado is able to pick up the EX DF4 (which has armor) into low 20% damage. Great if your opponent is trying to out zone with the Sub ice armor.

Opponent picks Scorpion: Pick Stryker, Kano, Goro.
- Reason: DF4 is an overhead, allowing you to mix up between Old form's F3/F34 string and DF4. Use the ambush assist to make them safe.

Opponent picks Sonya: Pick Stryker, Kano, Goro.
- Reason: DF4 is an overhead, allowing you to mix up between Old form's F3/F34 string and DF4. Use the ambush assist to make them safe.

Opponent picks Stryker: Pick Stryker, Kano, Goro.
- Reason: DF4 is an overhead, allowing you to mix up between Old form's F3/F34 string and DF4. Use the ambush assist to make them safe.

Opponent picks Ferra: Pick Mavado, Goro, Scorpion.
- Reason: Pick up the Ferra command grab for a combo. Turning D4 and all of the F4 string into a tic throw for full combo is nuts.
_
CHARACTER COUNTER PICKS:

Vs Johnny Cage: Pick Stryker, Kano, Goro, Darrius.
- Reason: Extra Safety. Both Goro and Darrius give safe armored launchers, along with their other typical benefits. Kano and Stryker help with zoning and general safety.



___

More to come + exceptions to the suggestions.

 

[LEGEND]

Some Notes on the Mavado Kameo Pairing. So far I'm thinking this is his best default Kameo:

Picks up the hits from Ground Skull and Air Ground Skull that launch back or in place at full screen. Easy confirm for about 25%, where you'd likely not confirm into anything otherwise. (this is a huge benefit)

Safe Jump / Mixup. End Combos in F32. Quick dash into a forward jump. Call Down Kameo and do Jip 2. Main point is the safe jump / armor break. If they delay their wake-up and see the Down Kameo coming they Might block low and get hit by the Jip 2 first though.

Degenerate Poke -> special combos: Both Young and Old DF2 combo into Mavado UK and FK. Old DB3 combos into Mavado Mine, and the Mine makes DB3 safe on block as well. I often use this early in a match to get the first hit bonus + life lead and go on the defensive. Dumping all the Kameo bar on Mine isn't a big deal with how fast Mavado recovers, and if the mine hits, you'll have one charge back by the time your combo finishes.

BK being +9 on block: No useful string / normal jails into BK, but you can still do something like F41 -> BK and jail into 24 or 124, or go right back to the F4 string. Your opponent will have to unblock at F41(2) in order to disrupt this, which opens them up to you continuing the string to F412(1). I've tested it in real matches and you can hit/Block confirm the 2 in F41(2)1. On hit its the expected DF1 Ground Skull. On block you can do DB3 -> Morph, or EX it if regular is punishable by your opponent's character.

Combo off of Old DF2: Vs characters that have disjointed normals that are hard to wiff punish. Old DF2 is a consistent way to punish. Often DF1 can wiff if their string closed the gap and got too close to you, that and DF2 is just slightly faster.

Synergy with the Kameo steal: Alot of DF4 Kameo moves can be converted into a combo with Mavado. Things like Sub EX DF4, Sareena, Sektor, Ferra (insane).

Lastly is the DK getting extra damage on frequent little hits. Weather its an awkward Ground Skull trade, a throw or F3, being able to tac-on that extra 5% is pretty nice.

 

[1man3letters]

Ok shang players help me here

What's the input sequence to do

Old shang d1/d3 canceled into young shang spikes?

Can do old into young spikes in a blocksting but can't seem find the timing off pokes

 

[LEGEND]

Ok shang players help me here

What's the input sequence to do

Old shang d1/d3 canceled into young shang spikes?

Can do old into young spikes in a blocksting but can't seem find the timing off pokes

It should be the same just faster. Input the special and then morph before the move starts. So just very fast D4-> DB3 -> D+LT