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[Opinion] The Ideal Mortal Kombat game

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Hey everyone, this it's one of those long threads i do, that can either be as major win or an Epic Fail, depends on how you feel on the current state of NRS era.

This thread, will be long, vast, but will contain what i do envision for a future MK game, and i have to say, that this it's what i'd to if i ever worked at NRS or had the possibility to be at NRS inner circle and have the power to direct a trilogy, as this will never happen, not only because i don't live in US, the channels and red tape to propose something on this magnitude to the right ppl at NRS right channels it's currently impossible, has a lot of red tape behind it, and it will never happen as i don't also have a portfolio to backup my claims, feel free to enjoy or whatever, reason why i'm posting this up here.

For those that aren't aware, i'm usually a very passionate MK ethusiastic as many, and my connection with the game, goes from art direction,story, lore, and of course, what i find the most important, gameplay, so i consider myself at least good enough to envision a big picture, from a consumer point of view, rather than a corporate one, i've tried editing and codded fan mk games before, and also have experienced feedbacks, critics and bugs found in my edits and games as well as broken characters, i've also succumbed to the temptation of having so much fun codding a character that it turned out broken in design, as well as having so afraid of a certain character becoming so overpowered that even new tools given were irrelevant to the competitive point of view.

For that reason, i would like to assure you, that to every MK game, that i've played and explored, there is always a positive thing to be taken into account, so i don't fully hate a specific MK game, even the current or previous one for that matter, as you know, i was one of the biggest advocates of MK11 at least quality and feature wise, i also consider this a rare quality since i enjoy every character creation equaly, maybe because when you're the one behind the wheel, you tend to be more open to what you envision and want ppl to experience.

What will this thread aim for?

In this thread, i will try to tackle the major problems with NRS games, and from it, will create a new MK game that i do believe it tackles these issues in a attempt to solve them, if the Majority of the you who reaches to the end of this thread and enjoys the content of the new game, I win, if the feeling it's otherwise different, then obviously, i lose (that's a personal challenge) so feel free to think what you like, also remember that some of these ideas are based on what NRS has already done in the game, and while some are derivated from some of these things and have never been tried or explored to the fullest, you might find issues or concerns over it's future, which to this, i can assure you, i would take this in consideration to further balance out the idea according to the feedback given, If i managed to keep you to this line, then i'm already on a good track, so lets not make you wait any longer and here it goes:

Current issues with MK games

1.Player Retainability - Ever since MK9, the franchise has a huge problem retaining it's player base, this happens mostly because NRS almost never improves upon an idea and the next game can differ so much from the previous that ends up alienating the players it got from previous games, these changes not only happen in general gameplay, but also characters tend to change drastically to one game from another, which doesn't help. The only MK game who maintained a high retainability rate was MK3 which progressed with updates with UMK3 and then MK Trilogy, with a lot of revisions in between, the characters were kept usually the same, moves were added, but no one changed drastically.

2. Proper Rules of engagement in a competitive environment - NRS games have ground roles, most of the time, we end up having characters ignoring sets of rules or simply by passing them in design, usually devs find these fun, but no one likes a character that plays outside of the rule book, in general a character can be as fun as we want them to be, but they also still need to lose, otherwise this becomes saturated, this goes not only from characters, but also a gameplay formula that needs to be fun enough to ensure everyone inserted into it, keeps the interest of the game and make players comeback to replay as often, a developer team that nails this, has struck gold.

3. Making sure, everything works - This is the area where the QA team enters, this is also a point that works in continuity with point no.2, if something either feature or anything you add into a game, it needs to work properly as much as possible, the less bug a feature has, the better, so the most important things to check are, from a gameplay perspective before finishers are:

a) Inputs - MK has been having cunckly controls for a bunch of years, a good way to benchmark this issue, it's by playing other fighting games and see how they do it, in order to prevent inconsistencies when inputing a code

b) - Blockstuns and hitstops - MK9 pokes had no blockstuns at all that you couldn't consistently punish a -13 down jab with a 13f mid launcher on reaction, but it went from not having blockstun at all, to having too much blockstun in MKX, where moves like Kotal F1B2 (if not mistaken) had way too many blockstun despite being -15 and you had to wait a lot before thinking about punishing it

c) Online capability, accessibility features, content creation and tournament filters - This is no brainer that today, a fighting game without proper online the game doesn't survive, acessibilities like a training mode with enough data, and filters for tournaments and content creation to help spread the game safely without youtube and other medias regulating violance or exposition all the time are solutions NRS barely implements in their games, and these are necessary.

4. Artistic interaction with gameplay, audio or visual - These are built over the years, you can describe this as when, certain artistic designs interact with the game in a certain way, it can be a feature of the game, certain sound effects, visual presentation anything, the thing its, there is a window in this particular point where you can sway things in the game in order to stick to the audience and you just keep including them to retain as much as possible, here is clear examples:

Kabal B121 combo in the corner in MK9 used to make the other characters scream "Hey hey hey" in the corner along with the audience, this might have not be intented at the time, but having kabal returning in MK11 this is something he should've retained.

Gods in MK games (Raiden, Fujin, Kajin (firegod) have a specific way to shout gibberish when they use special moves, Fujin retained this to every interaction he got, raiden lost it, in my most humble opinion, gibberish shouting it's what makes gods in MK for me an interesting thing artistically, so every other god in future games should've never lose this, it's almost like Ryu be in a fighting game using a fireball and not shouting (Hadouken) feels weird.
X-Rays in MK9 used to last a majority of 3 to 5 seconds, and while they were rare, they never felt tiresome, today a Fatal Blow takes up to at least 10 seconds to conclude, and that's me being generous.
Among other things, these are just examples.


These 4 points In my opinion, it's what NRS does wrong for gameplay, there are also other points like story, single player content, things that coul've keep their player base engaged in the game, but instead of breaking them now, further down the line if needed i will tackle these points on what i would do to retain players, except the story one, i don't mess with MK story more than i already have.


So having gone through all these, and seeing the current evolution of MK games since 1992 MK1, here is my proposal to what the Ideal MK game could be.

The Ideal Mortal Kombat game (Formula)

Now, i will present things from my own perspective of direction to what i think if NRS did it, they would be rivaling SF6 and Tekken 8 right now and bounce back into the big 3, sell a bunch of copies, retain their player base, breakthrough eastern countries scene, and overall make the entire earth happy, excited, hopeful, not having to turn off comments on their channels, and of course make Tom Brady Happy. (I feel insufferable with this one, but i'm confident i can please you all)

So for starters, remember that we don't have a game yet, and we are starting fresh, so lets estabilish some ground rules, that everyone WILL follow, and we find this niche interesting enough, we can improve upon it, with everything else NRS already did right, so here they are:

If we are following a trend here, and seeing what the direction competition it's doing (Street Fighter 6 drive system and Tekken 8 Heat System) both have nothing to do with each other, but it's how they are implemented that adds to the game, i personally think the heat activation it's currently overdone and could've some tweaking, but this is not a thread to talk about the direct competion, so lets see how NRS could match that within an interesting design.

Introducing, the "Kripple" mechanic
A Mechanic, that mixes up some of the things NRS have done in the past, either well or bad, with enough twists to (in my opinion) feel interesting enough to give it a shot, with something borrowed from SF6 but replacing the "burnout" with the kripple mechanic

What it does?
In this game, your limbs and stance switch affect your gameplay in a unique way, whenever you block anything in the game, you take the current chip NRS has given us since MKX which is 0,1% to 0,5% chip damage in health, but if you get into a krippled state, your character will take up to 1% to 7% chip as it did in MK9.
The kripple state lasts 10 seconds and it's achieved when both of your arms get damaged by a krushing blow.
Your walk Speed and Jump startup and jump arcs are affected and turns them into shitty jumpers like some characters in MK11 base jump data which can't jump shit on reaction, if both legs are damaged by a krushing blow for 10 seconds
A single limb affected by a krushing blow deals slightly less damage, scale combos, and slightly affects frame data, meaning specials can or cannot have much slower startup or having less blockstuns or damage for 10 seconds, the idea i had was that key moves of a character would be heavily affected by it nerfing them for 10 seconds, the player can switch stance to regain the normals and re-use without the consequence, but if he gets another crushing blow on the new limb while the other one it's suffering 10 second nerfs, the character gets into a kripple state and renews the nerf for a new 10seconds knockdown
Character fighting stance animation changes when krippled, for each or both limbs (animation of someone who took damage)
visual indicator on screen that highlights which limbs are damaged until the penalty time exprires.

The entire prospect of the game it's designed around this, where players will choose to either fight nerfed and then return back to normal, or switch stance to regain a key move which proprieties changes if used during a penalty time, and for that, the rest of the the game is designed around this.

The game Keeps the design of MK9 as base, and implements evolved and revised mechanics from every MK game possible, in order to keep things fresh, nostalgic, and competitive at the same time, assume you have played MKX, MK9, MK11, MK1, classic MK games you won't feel strange and yet you will feel like there is something in it you can use.

Guarding System

Flawless Block - By tapping block as an attack it's about to hit you, you take up not chip damage, the opponent doesn't build meter from blocked move either.
Some attack strings when flawless blocked on the first hit, cancels the entire opponent's dial and becomes unsafe for a launcher
Pushback attacks, when flawless blocked allows the defender to run cancel the pushback earlier for specific run punishes

Flawless Krushing Blow - By throwing an opponent after a flawless block, and you can counter with specific attack that can break the opponent's limb he attacked with (arms or legs), projectiles are not affected unless parried up block and gets grabbed. Cannot be broken if lands as a punish, doesn't deal massive damage as in MK11
Currently undecided if traditional Krushing Blow should return, but if it did, they would just be launchers with unbreakable damage and not massive damage starters, but leaving out for now, and would think something better later if it had to be implemented
Up block - Blows up any overhead in the game (that it's not airbone) into a standard stun animation, which the defender gets as visual aid to start a punisher, always gives up full combos.
Uppercut Krushing Blow - deals unbreakable damage on full combo at the cost of 2 bars and 50% of stamina to cancel when not done as crushing Blow
Stamina Guarding - When Health it's bellow 2% character's stamina gets chipped by normals before death, specials and projectiles still do chip damage.

Jailing System
Guard Stance Jail - Specific strings and specials do Jail characters in stance like MK9, if the move gets caught guarding standing or crouching, they will remain in that animation (standing or crouchingg) until the jail expires.
Hit Jail - Some moves may not combo but under specific advantages that would normaly cause a blockstring like MK11, highs will Jail crouching characters who are negative on specific hits, so neutral ducking an 8F jab at -8 will get you jailed into a hit.
Flawless Block Jail - Flawless Block cannot be performed from a disadvantageous position when the following attack will force a blockstring or hit Jail
Flawless Block Lock out - Characters who mashes guard trying to find a window for flawless block, there is a 20f lock out where flawless block aplications are disabled each block mashing

Air game, Invincibilitty, Armor and Wakeup System
Armor - Some attacks armors expires by specific hits, others by frame duration, whoever, throws do beat armor and become untechable
Invicibility - Some attacks have invincibility against projectiles only, some against air attacks only like upperctus, and some like backdashes are fully invincible, certain wakeup attacks are fully invincible on wakeups only, some specials cannot be used as wakeup attacks
Landing from an air attack leaves character vulnerable for a small window such as when stance switching, these windows are often used for trip guard punishing

Range and Weapon specific and Disjointed hitboxes
Characters do not cover a lot of range like MKX and MK11, characters who use weapons usually have more range and disjointed hitboxes, however disjointed hitboxes have a longer recovery window on whiff and startup might take a bit depending on the character strengths


Movement and Universal Buttons basic functions
FP - Front Punch
BP - Back Punch
FK - Front Kick
BK - Back Kick
Sweeps - B+RK
Back throws - B+ FP+FK (Tech with FP) 20f breaking window
Forward Throws - F+FP+FK (Tech with BP) 20f Breaking Window
Back Dash - BB (Can be canceled with guard and perform the MK9 Dash block system)
Dash Forward - FF (Can be cancelled with guard, and perform the MK9 Dash block system)
Invicible Backdash - Stance Switch + BB (Consumes Stamina)
Run - Stance Switch + FF (Consumes Stamina Gradually)
Short hop - tap Up slightly (avoids d1, throws, and any lows)
Neutral Jump - Up
NJP - Mids and unsafe on the way up, this time non special cancelable on whiff, overhead on the way down, but safe and slightly plus on block
Round Houses - FK+BK when far from the opponent, or opponent at any distance but airbone
Run Jab - LP+RP while running and not close a grounded opponent, or opponent at any distance but airbone
Close Normals - FP+RP (Elbow), LK+HK(Knee)
Breaker - 2 Bars of Meter + 100% of Stamina
Xrays - Stance Switch + Block
Aggressor Mode - Stance Switch + FK+RK

Stance Switching - Allows players to switch sstances to use the other limb unpenalized, however, if he gets hit by another krushing blow on this new limb while the other one it's damaged before the 10 seconds window expires, he will enter the kripple state. Side switching has a brief opening where who is switching can't block either.
Characters can switch stance by tapping the stance button, or release after kept held, if kept held, the character doesn't switch stance, but can run if double tap forward it's inserted, or can perform a startup invincible backdash if double tap backwards it's inserted, cancel stance switching by guarding first and the releasing the button.
In Sum
Switch Stance: tap and release stance button
Run - Hold Stance + FF (Consumes Stamina gradually)/ or FF~Stance to run immediately from a dash
Super Backdash - Hold Stance + BB pr /BB+stance to perform an invicible backdash(Consumes 50% Stamina), has invincibility frames on startup, longer recovery, cannot be cancelled by block, basically MKX backdash

Meters Systems
Stamina - Runs under the health bar and it's used for specific things such as, breakers, running, and invincile backdashes, it builds gradually on it's own, consumes 50% of it's fill when a invincible backdash it's used, or 100% when a breaker it's used (bar has to be full), opponent cannot break if aggressor meter it's not at level 2

Introducing the "Aggressor" Meter
This replace the standard meter, but it's esscentialy the same thing, you gain enhanced moves on lvl1, breakers in lvl2, but in lvl3, you can choose to do an X-Ray attack, or, temporarily buff your character with the aggressor mode, draining the entire meter for temporary juice as the meter burns towards 0.

Aggressor - There is no attack on activation, just a flash on the meter and reflection of the character who activates are left on screen as they move, filling the screen like the old aggressor state in MK Trilogy, they do not give damage boost, but will enhance characters strengths at the time (better specials, unique changes, etc)

X-Rays - Unbrekable 32% damage that puts opponents into a full krippled state, both arms and legs enter a kripple state for 10 seconds and it's supposed to be the worst state to be in the game, as not only you will take more chip damage, but your walkspeed, jump arcs and every key move you have are essentially nerfed for full 10 seconds.


Throw System
The throw system has now been revised, back throws now has the back arm animation reaching for the throw, while the front throw has the front arm reaching for the throw, independent of the stance position.
Throw break window starts at 20 frames
you can break back throws with back punch, while front throws with front punch only, kicks no longer break throws
Counter Throw - You can counter a throw after you break a throw, by grabbing immediately during the throw break animation, this reduces the throw break window by 2 frames each time there is a throw break chain.
Throw Hint - There is a "huh!" sound performed by the attacker time a character attempts to throw someone (This is an artistic interaction)
Throws no Longer grab d1s and anyone attacking with a crouching normal.
If no one counter throws, the throw break animation runs to the end like it happens in MK1.
Short hops - Invincibility against d1 and lows

Introducing the Hybrid Dial Kombo System
You can do both types of dial
UMK3 Dial with classic strings animations
and MK9, MKX, MK11 dial system (modern NRS era dials)
MK3 dials are started with FP+BP up close resulting on an elbow starter, while FK+RK results on a knee starters, both being 11 and 9 frame mids in particular to a minimum depending of the character and their strengths
For example old Cyrax HP HP, Back + LP would've been FP+RP, FP, Back + RP, Old Sub Hk, HK, Back + HK would've been LK+RK, RK, Back+ RK
MK3 dials cannot be broken, and only the juggle part of their combo can. If such normals are executed at distance, it changes to a snake Jab and the latter to a round house kick.
UMK3 dials can't be special cancelled unless specific characters have mechanic to it like (nightwolf and raiden before)
Modern NRS era dials still come from command normals, and regular normals, and those can be broken at any point as long as the defender has meter for it.

The idea of this it's to bring back the audience which enjoyed the old string system more than the current one, but also give something of value, which is choosing to use strings that cannot be broken to whoever takes damage at every mistake they do just because they have meter for it.
But also, the strings could be sped up a bit not only to give that nostalgia bait feel, but also to keep the game a bit more dynamic and fast paced on somethings without look clunky, i look at scorpion leg string now compared to UMK3 version, and i still take UMK3 speed dial every time.

Introducing Gravity, Juggle count System

Revised, this one brings forth the all power of classic MKs and NRS era all in one system, Certain specials have a specific number of juggle hits where they are allowed to be re-used, meaning some can only be used before the hit count reaches 2, some under 5, while others do not, the gravity scale that makes characters fall faster for each hit are also in place, in order to balance the combo system without having another cyrax and infinite situations,

Stage Transitions (With artistic interaction)
With SSD it's possible to make stages with 1st and 2nd floor with 0 load and super fast transitions, this is something i was expecting NRS to return to again, as long as they are fast and simple, and lot a visual animation that hides a big load screen like they did in Injustice.
Also, this is something i was further debating with a credible source and we were chatting on a gimmick of having parts of stage music play without some of it's original knobs to make the music sound like a second version of itself, it's a glitch that exists in MK genesis versions when someone gets transitioned into the first floor of a stage and the song that it's supposed to play there, plays whtout some of it's main instruments. Glad to say that in MK1, if you play any music on training mode at any stage, you get this as part of the composition.

But now that they've shown that it's possible, the idea here was to add 3 types of stage transitions Uppercuts (Sends opponents fly on the first floor) NJP (Sends the opponent fly on the underfloor) and Round House at the wall (Sends the opponent flying on the next stage), plays variation of the music for the first floor without it's original instruments (i know this feels weird, i have to show you some day, you can do in UMK3 sega genesis if you have an original console and cartridge, put vs on scorpion lair, and after the match starts, sends the opponent on first floor, there is a chance the game will glitch and a variation of khan's kave plays until the round ends and goes back to the original Music)


Content Creation and tournament display
Since today classic views and sex appeal are often critiziced, such as the blood and gore for MK, i would advice characters default costumes to be something that it's safe to display in tournament environments, youtube and such, as well as Alt costumes could be a bit more over the top and show a bit more of the classic MK design some ppl hate today, but some still love.
Would also go as far as having an option to disable finishers, blood in order for the game to run a bit more faster

Online, accebility features, and single player content
This is probably the harderst part to ellaborate in a game, lets start with Online
1 - For some reason the MK11 online more runs smoothly even today, i think overall NRS should go back to that, and improve upon it, maybe design an hybrid, and having connection filters this time around, like searching for connection strengths and per region as well would be a nice implementation, allowing to not accept a match under a certain treshold, as well as to vote to end a match when the match starts lagging everywhere, and of course, something that it's mandatory for today standards' to look for a matches at any more while browsing other modes in the game.

2 - Accessibility feactures - Normally NRS does a killer Job with these, but it's always good to check on for each game what would be more ergonomic to have for the game, from button configuration, color features for color blind players, narration for blind, audio hints for when meter fills to each level, when Aggressor or X..rays are used, and when aggressor expires, steps while running, wooshes while dashing, specific woosh for invincibility backdashes narrated menu.

3 - Single player content
Introducing the NEXUS
The nexus it's the NRS version of a in game social media, where continents are realms, and throw each portal we can access player profile, follow them, make friend requests, download ghosts, ask for matches and check their stats in game
A player profile would also contain the characters this person uses, check out match data records and watch replays, donwload replays, having the takeover feature which is mandatory at this point, fighting ghosts
Ranked system with a new lvl system instead of the kombat league one, character lock at the search while training or browsing other modes
Data analysis on each match (Reaction times, punishes, times a move was used, button press rate, damage output average, throws broken, anti-airs used, x-rays and lows blocked, overhead guarded, etc etc, these things are built according to the game necessity)
Faction system again, but revised, you can filter searches by region, rank level and faction
Rooms for 16 player tournaments and spectating matches
King of the hill, predefined ft2, ft3, up to ft10
100 missions unique tower missions
classic towers
Koquest mode ala deception
Krypt (to unlock content only, not RPG style)
Actual unique costumes, and swapable parts of the costumes intead of pallete swaps with weird collors
Tutorial mode to aid new players, with unique lessons and explain from a basic and generic to what each character is about, and how to play to their strengths, advanced guides and tips

Characters and how would they play?
I'm excluding characters from these, because they're not the focus, but rather the system itself, so imagine, the possibilities of how would characters benefict in general for this system once inserted in, and how would they be built.
I would of course give any classic MK character they classic dial strings with the same animations, not only for nostalgia bait, but because they've built it over the years, so we don't have to start over again, and the new characters and anyone from MK4 ownards would have some old animation strings turned into MK3 dials to still be reconizable, and as well as having their NRS dial which we currently use.


Possible issues with the current though system and requestion your take based on what you read.
Kripple state might face 2 issues in this phase which i see it happen:
1 - Not enough activaction to happen through flawless blocks alone, it's the reason why i think krushing blows could return, but then i have faced another problem, would they be unlimited? Asking you guys.
2- Characters in kripple state or full kripple state might be on the worst possible position in the game and felt overwhelmed, unsure if this would cause a 1 sided battle, yet again asking if you see yourself in such scenarion and completely hate it and find it not fun at all.
How could this be fixed? - Instead of 10 seconds, the character gets nerfed for the entire round? i find that too punitive btw, just thinking about it.


Hope you enjoyed this read of me rambling about something i will probably never achieve, but this has been on my mind and haunting me for a while, and i finally feel glad to let it all out, and you guys be the one to see if you would enjoy an MK with this prospect.

Thanks the time you've taken to read this, at this point someone will post what was i smoking or if i have too much free time to write this thinking it's a good ideia, eitherway it's out there, hope you enjoyed at least.
 
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xenogorgeous

.... they mostly come at night. Mostly.
God Damn, Eddy, this thread is long as fuck, but a very good one indeed, you're a true MK fan enthusiastic and a very passionate one, lol !

Anyway, my 2 cents in some points where NRS "lost" it hands with the MK franchise .... :laughing:

  • Artistic vision misguiding : MK was born with a much more martial arts and east asian feeling, the first MK was amazing in the art direction, remembering a mix of Enter the Dragon with BIg Trouble in Little China, and surronding with mystery ..... the reborn of the franchise, with MK9, brought that back in an amazing way, and this feeling was losing it touch with MKX and MK11 creative decisions, turning into a more urban and realistic set up and boring environements .... kinda losing off its visual identity
  • Crap story script and lore : MK9 was truly cool reviving the lore of the first 3 games, while MKX started that boring and annoying Special Forces family soup opera drama, and MK11 came with the starting of the multiverse and LIu Kang Deus Ex Machina vendetta , a truly going down in terms of writing quality for MK story, so, despite the game qualities in all the gameplay aspect, the story mode after MK9 just become more and more worse, a mix up of annoying side stories with boring and unecessary drama, so, a fall down point for MK franchise
  • Boring single player content experience : the 300 levels tower in MK9 was pretty cool and fresh , and the krypt semi open exploration in MK11 would become a huge quality mode if more well developed, but brough some good concepts for future , while in MK11 and MK1, the single player experience are simple terrible boring to hell and lackluster as fuck , so, bringing a very bad reputation for the game itself
anyway, all constructive criticism is very welcome , in order to suggest good stuff as enhancement and improvement for the MK series franchise in future ..... question is, WB and NRS are open mind to hear and take in consideration the fanbase opinion ? I think is pretty hard to believe that they will someday, lol ! :p
 
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Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
In regards to player retainability. I personally think that they aren’t all that concerned with retaining players within each game (to an extent). I think they for sure want to retain the customer for future titles, but as far as individual games, I think they’re only concerned with the players buying DLC or more recently with the microtransactions. But outside of that, they couldn’t care less about it.

I’ve been saying this for awhile, but NRS games don’t seem to be built to last. In fact, quite the opposite. It feels like they don’t really want a game to be a masterpiece. That sounds conspiracy theory like, but think about it. What incentive do they have to want to make a game that’d last for even 4 years let alone 8+? It is in their best interest for the game to die when they stop supporting it. And they have done a very good job of conditioning MOST of us to not care about the game as much as soon as they stop supporting it. They’ve also made us rely on balance patches and DLC to keep the game fresh and honestly alive and well.

People always counter this by saying “WE decide when a game dies!”. Which… yeah, that’s true. But if people start losing interest in a specific game once NRS stops supporting it, they’re directly effecting the lifespan of their game. And this also ties back into me saying the games aren’t built to last on their own. They need NRS’ support for one reason or another. If it’s not to keep the game exciting, it’s because there’s always a lot of issues. However, even if there’s not a ton of issues with the game, like I said, they have conditioned us to rely on them to keep these games exciting with patches and DLC updates. So it’s pretty much an inevitability that the game will die once they stop the support.

Even though “we” ultimately decide if we want to keep a game alive or not, NRS’ influence is massive and undeniable. The entire business model and just the overall patching model in general is an issue I’ve had with NRS since Injustice. And to be fair, it’s not like NRS is the only gaming company that does this. But it’s hard for me to invest a ton of time into a game and into a specific character, only for the game and that character to change drastically 3 months into it, or 3-6 months after that. So on one hand, the balance patches are a good thing that keeps these games fresh and exciting, BUT they also are a deterrent to invest a ton of time into the game when you know you’re rolling the dice and literally gambling on your investment like it’s a fkn crypto coin.

One I guess “solution” to this would be to have far more transparency in general, but specifically when it comes to the direction they want to take the game competitively, and the changes they want to make to the game and to the characters.

For instance, if they’re planning on doing a balance patch. Let people know weeks in advance the changes you’re planning on making. Not just “we’re going to be nerfing Johnny Cage and buffing Quan-Chi”. But actually detailing the changes you’re going to be making. This will help with the overall communication between the developers and the community, and it’d also help players to know what they should or shouldn’t be investing their time into when it comes to certain characters. It’s incredibly demoralizing and discouraging to practice & grind a certain character and a specific aspect of their game & playstyle, only for it to completely change in an update with no warning. A lot of that time is now wasted. And now you’re scared to invest time into the changes because what if it happens again? This is why downplaying (and upplaying to a lesser extent) is so prevalent in the NRS community. Everyone is so afraid that their character will be nerfed, that they’re constantly downplaying. Which I can’t blame them at all. We’re all traumatized by that nerfhammer. Especially considering that the nerfs don’t always make sense and aren’t always warranted.

Anyway, sorry I couldn’t read all of your post and respond to it in full. But this response is pretty long too, lol. And I know I didn’t quite explain things in a more concise way. I’m hoping those who actually take the time to read this post can at least understand where I’m coming from and the points I’m trying to make
 

xenogorgeous

.... they mostly come at night. Mostly.
In regards to player retainability. I personally think that they aren’t all that concerned with retaining players within each game (to an extent). I think they for sure want to retain the customer for future titles, but as far as individual games, I think they’re only concerned with the players buying DLC or more recently with the microtransactions. But outside of that, they couldn’t care less about it.

I’ve been saying this for awhile, but NRS games don’t seem to be built to last. In fact, quite the opposite. It feels like they don’t really want a game to be a masterpiece. That sounds conspiracy theory like, but think about it. What incentive do they have to want to make a game that’d last for even 4 years let alone 8+? It is in their best interest for the game to die when they stop supporting it. And they have done a very good job of conditioning MOST of us to not care about the game as much as soon as they stop supporting it. They’ve also made us rely on balance patches and DLC to keep the game fresh and honestly alive and well.

People always counter this by saying “WE decide when a game dies!”. Which… yeah, that’s true. But if people start losing interest in a specific game once NRS stops supporting it, they’re directly effecting the lifespan of their game. And this also ties back into me saying the games aren’t built to last on their own. They need NRS’ support for one reason or another. If it’s not to keep the game exciting, it’s because there’s always a lot of issues. However, even if there’s not a ton of issues with the game, like I said, they have conditioned us to rely on them to keep these games exciting with patches and DLC updates. So it’s pretty much an inevitability that the game will die once they stop the support.

Even though “we” ultimately decide if we want to keep a game alive or not, NRS’ influence is massive and undeniable. The entire business model and just the overall patching model in general is an issue I’ve had with NRS since Injustice. And to be fair, it’s not like NRS is the only gaming company that does this. But it’s hard for me to invest a ton of time into a game and into a specific character, only for the game and that character to change drastically 3 months into it, or 3-6 months after that. So on one hand, the balance patches are a good thing that keeps these games fresh and exciting, they also are a deterrent to invest a ton of time into the game when you know you’re rolling the dice and literally gambling on your investment like it’s a fkn crypto coin.

One I guess “solution” to this would be to have far more transparency in general, but specifically when it comes to the direction they want to take the game competitively, and the changes they want to make to the game and to the characters.

For instance, if they’re planning on doing a balance patch. Let people know weeks in advance the changes you’re planning on making. Not just “we’re going to be nerfing Johnny Cage and buffing Quan-Chi”. But actually detailing the changes you’re going to be making. This will help with the overall communication between the developers and the community, and it’d also help players to know what they should or shouldn’t be investing their time into when it comes to certain characters. It’s incredibly demoralizing and discouraging to practice & grind a certain character and a specific aspect of their game & playstyle, only for it to completely change in an update with no warning. A lot of that time is now wasted. And now you’re scared to invest time into the changes because what if it happens again? This is why downplaying (and upplaying to a lesser extent) is so prevalent in the NRS community. Everyone is so afraid that their character will be nerfed, that they’re constantly downplaying. Which I can’t blame them at all. We’re all traumatized by that nerfhammer. Especially considering that the nerfs don’t always make sense and aren’t always warranted.

Anyway, sorry I couldn’t read all of your post and respond to it in full. But this response is pretty long too, lol. And I know I didn’t quite explain things in a more concise way. I’m hoping those who actually take the time to read this post can at least understand where I’m coming from and the points I’m trying to make
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
But what is the artstyle like?

I do think an element of the extra blockstun as NRS games go on is a consequence of improved animations, letting the animation sit you know

I couldn't agree more about the gibberish.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
God Damn, Eddy, this thread is long as fuck, but a very good one indeed, you're a true MK fan enthusiastic and a very passionate one, lol !

Anyway, my 2 cents in some points where NRS "lost" it hands with the MK franchise .... :laughing:

  • Artistic vision misguiding : MK was born with a much more martial arts and east asian feeling, the first MK was amazing in the art direction, remembering a mix of Enter the Dragon with BIg Trouble in Little China, and surronding with mystery ..... the reborn of the franchise, with MK9, brought that back in an amazing way, and this feeling was losing it touch with MKX and MK11 creative decisions, turning into a more urban and realistic set up and boring environements .... kinda losing off its visual identity
  • Crap story script and lore : MK9 was truly cool reviving the lore of the first 3 games, while MKX started that boring and annoying Special Forces family soup opera drama, and MK11 came with the starting of the multiverse and LIu Kang Deus Ex Machina vendetta , a truly going down in terms of writing quality for MK story, so, despite the game qualities in all the gameplay aspect, the story mode after MK9 just become more and more worse, a mix up of annoying side stories with boring and unecessary drama, so, a fall down point for MK franchise
  • Boring single player content experience : the 300 levels tower in MK9 was pretty cool and fresh , and the krypt semi open exploration in MK11 would become a huge quality mode if more well developed, but brough some good concepts for future , while in MK11 and MK1, the single player experience are simple terrible boring to hell and lackluster as fuck , so, bringing a very bad reputation for the game itself
anyway, all constructive criticism is very welcome , in order to suggest good stuff as enhancement and improvement for the MK series franchise in future ..... question is, WB and NRS are open mind to hear and take in consideration the fanbase opinion ? I think is pretty hard to believe that they will someday, lol ! :p
One of the things that definitely felt a bit weird, it's how outworld changed to arabian fantasy world, i still think the purple skies were good at providing that environment you really don't want to live in, like sun was different atmosphere was different as well.
If Anything the art direction of MK1, 2 and 3 are still the way to go imo.
In regards to player retainability. I personally think that they aren’t all that concerned with retaining players within each game (to an extent). I think they for sure want to retain the customer for future titles, but as far as individual games, I think they’re only concerned with the players buying DLC or more recently with the microtransactions. But outside of that, they couldn’t care less about it.

I’ve been saying this for awhile, but NRS games don’t seem to be built to last. In fact, quite the opposite. It feels like they don’t really want a game to be a masterpiece. That sounds conspiracy theory like, but think about it. What incentive do they have to want to make a game that’d last for even 4 years let alone 8+? It is in their best interest for the game to die when they stop supporting it. And they have done a very good job of conditioning MOST of us to not care about the game as much as soon as they stop supporting it. They’ve also made us rely on balance patches and DLC to keep the game fresh and honestly alive and well.

People always counter this by saying “WE decide when a game dies!”. Which… yeah, that’s true. But if people start losing interest in a specific game once NRS stops supporting it, they’re directly effecting the lifespan of their game. And this also ties back into me saying the games aren’t built to last on their own. They need NRS’ support for one reason or another. If it’s not to keep the game exciting, it’s because there’s always a lot of issues. However, even if there’s not a ton of issues with the game, like I said, they have conditioned us to rely on them to keep these games exciting with patches and DLC updates. So it’s pretty much an inevitability that the game will die once they stop the support.

Even though “we” ultimately decide if we want to keep a game alive or not, NRS’ influence is massive and undeniable. The entire business model and just the overall patching model in general is an issue I’ve had with NRS since Injustice. And to be fair, it’s not like NRS is the only gaming company that does this. But it’s hard for me to invest a ton of time into a game and into a specific character, only for the game and that character to change drastically 3 months into it, or 3-6 months after that. So on one hand, the balance patches are a good thing that keeps these games fresh and exciting, BUT they also are a deterrent to invest a ton of time into the game when you know you’re rolling the dice and literally gambling on your investment like it’s a fkn crypto coin.

One I guess “solution” to this would be to have far more transparency in general, but specifically when it comes to the direction they want to take the game competitively, and the changes they want to make to the game and to the characters.

For instance, if they’re planning on doing a balance patch. Let people know weeks in advance the changes you’re planning on making. Not just “we’re going to be nerfing Johnny Cage and buffing Quan-Chi”. But actually detailing the changes you’re going to be making. This will help with the overall communication between the developers and the community, and it’d also help players to know what they should or shouldn’t be investing their time into when it comes to certain characters. It’s incredibly demoralizing and discouraging to practice & grind a certain character and a specific aspect of their game & playstyle, only for it to completely change in an update with no warning. A lot of that time is now wasted. And now you’re scared to invest time into the changes because what if it happens again? This is why downplaying (and upplaying to a lesser extent) is so prevalent in the NRS community. Everyone is so afraid that their character will be nerfed, that they’re constantly downplaying. Which I can’t blame them at all. We’re all traumatized by that nerfhammer. Especially considering that the nerfs don’t always make sense and aren’t always warranted.

Anyway, sorry I couldn’t read all of your post and respond to it in full. But this response is pretty long too, lol. And I know I didn’t quite explain things in a more concise way. I’m hoping those who actually take the time to read this post can at least understand where I’m coming from and the points I’m trying to make
I get what you mean, but if they're really into selling DLCs, wouldn't they make more money by making a game that last 4 years and have one season per year just adding to it? Not only they would save a lot more money, and would earn more by doing proper DLC, having more marketing through the competition and content creation exposition.
Rather than having to scrapp all and try to make another formula that may divise their entire audience again, and again, and again until they start losing money?

I dunno who at NRS thinks this way, and if that's a thing, this is definitely what it's hurting them, they could've sold a lot more than they expect if they just retained their audience and do significant patches per season and of course having a good tournament cirquit that can market their games.
The target audience doesn't need to be the pro players, the demographic were always the casuals, but the pro players are the ones who casuals aspires to become or to be, that's how we got tweedy, rewind and others, so having a circuit that displays the highest level of refined play marketed through tournaments, can also have a good impact on which characters are being attracted to, played online often and so on, and as i said in the long essay, accessibility features that can help see the bigger picture are always game dependent, so having means to gather data on who are the most played characters onlime, who wins a lot more in ranked and so on, are tools that can help devs see the full state of the game before they make balancing decisions in order to attract more audience to their games, just saying.

But what is the artstyle like?

I do think an element of the extra blockstun as NRS games go on is a consequence of improved animations, letting the animation sit you know

I couldn't agree more about the gibberish.
MK9 artstyle it's what i was aiming for, not only the visual design and asthetics, but also, having filters for classic feel, like imagine playing a mordern mk game with an audio filter that ressembles UMK3, MK2 or MK1 sound effects, even the console ports versions, changing hit sounds, chiset of the music to have those feels even in modern music and so on.

The extra blockstun case can be solved, there is something in fighting games, where you can set how long it takes for a character to start moving after they block something, these have to be tweaked otherwise you end up with MK9 situation where you block a d1 and it had no blockstun so you couldn't punish a -13 poke with a 13f mid starter without just frame, or MKX where you had to wait 3 whole seconds before input your punish.

The idea is that the MK9 example can be fixed by adding more blockstun to both characters when d1 it's blocked, so recovery frames starts after this newly added blockstun starts, which would give you time to recodnize a move visually and let your brain proccess that it was blocked, and give you time to punish or buffer a punish withing a 4 to 5 frame window.

Or in the MKX case, you could reduce the blockstun for a good amount to prevent it for still going when a brain has already recodnized that its time to punish an opponent mistake, having the input come out from a buffer and prevent these kinds of embarassement to happen

Here it is a recent example in MK1 where we still have this problem unchecked, this could be a simple case of knowing what to look for when making the game, estabilishing a rule and every move in the game, blocked or flawless blocked adjusted to suit an universal need



I had an issue similar in my Edits, where Sub-Zeroes couldn't be pressured because they could slide their way out of blockstuns and it was broken
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
I get what you mean, but if they're really into selling DLCs, wouldn't they make more money by making a game that last 4 years and have one season per year just adding to it? Not only they would save a lot more money, and would earn more by doing proper DLC, having more marketing through the competition and content creation exposition.
Rather than having to scrapp all and try to make another formula that may divise their entire audience again, and again, and again until they start losing money?

I dunno who at NRS thinks this way, and if that's a thing, this is definitely what it's hurting them, they could've sold a lot more than they expect if they just retained their audience and do significant patches per season and of course having a good tournament cirquit that can market their games.
The target audience doesn't need to be the pro players, the demographic were always the casuals, but the pro players are the ones who casuals aspires to become or to be, that's how we got tweedy, rewind and others, so having a circuit that displays the highest level of refined play marketed through tournaments, can also have a good impact on which characters are being attracted to, played online often and so on, and as i said in the long essay, accessibility features that can help see the bigger picture are always game dependent, so having means to gather data on who are the most played characters onlime, who wins a lot more in ranked and so on, are tools that can help devs see the full state of the game before they make balancing decisions in order to attract more audience to their games, just saying.
No, they don’t make nearly as much money on 2nd or 3rd round DLC’s as they do with just coming out with a new game. As we all know, at least 90% of the consumer base for MK games are casuals. Most casuals play the game for a couple months then drop it. But a good portion of them buy the first kombat pack, so they come back for a few days, a week max, once the new DLC character drops. A very small portion of those casuals end up getting a 2nd kombat pack, it’s mainly the competitive players that are getting the later round DLC’s. Which, the amount of competitive players there are in NRS games is tiny, especially compared to the number of casuals. The ratio is completely lopsided and no other FG has this lopsided of a ratio.

And casuals LOVE it when the next new game has a bunch of new features. NRS casuals absolutely do not want a legacy FG. They want new shiny things. They also don’t care all that much about balance.

Anyway, this is why I’ve talked about NRS’ business model for the past decade and how it’s different than other FG companies. But, since I have talked about it so much, don’t really feel like saying the same thing a different way for the dozenth time, lol.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
No, they don’t make nearly as much money on 2nd or 3rd round DLC’s as they do with just coming out with a new game. As we all know, at least 90% of the consumer base for MK games are casuals. Most casuals play the game for a couple months then drop it. But a good portion of them buy the first kombat pack, so they come back for a few days, a week max, once the new DLC character drops. A very small portion of those casuals end up getting a 2nd kombat pack, it’s mainly the competitive players that are getting the later round DLC’s. Which, the amount of competitive players there are in NRS games is tiny, especially compared to the number of casuals. The ratio is completely lopsided and no other FG has this lopsided of a ratio.

And casuals LOVE it when the next new game has a bunch of new features. NRS casuals absolutely do not want a legacy FG. They want new shiny things. They also don’t care all that much about balance.

Anyway, this is why I’ve talked about NRS’ business model for the past decade and how it’s different than other FG companies. But, since I have talked about it so much, don’t really feel like saying the same thing a different way for the dozenth time, lol.
You don't need to explain yourself over again, i know exactly where they stand.

The question is though, imagine you had the power to decide, would you stick to said model or go for a different approach?
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
You don't need to explain yourself over again, i know exactly where they stand.

The question is though, imagine you had the power to decide, would you stick to said model or go for a different approach?
From a business perspective, the model is great and works very well. There’s other reasons why MK1 hasn’t sold as well as its predecessors and one of the biggest reasons is the fact that it’s only on the current/next gen consoles + PC. I also have talked about this a bunch, but If MK1 was available on all platforms, the sales numbers would be comparable to MK11.

From an actual player’s perspective, I don’t like the model very much. I’d much rather NRS work diligently to make a quality fighting game that’s built to last for years to come, much like a FromSoft game. There’d be a much bigger incentive to invest time into NRS games if I knew they’d be around for much longer, the game was actually a very well crafted FG, and if I was confident in and trusted the team who makes the balancing decisions.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
From a business perspective, the model is great and works very well. There’s other reasons why MK1 hasn’t sold as well as its predecessors
Is this true?

MKX took four years to sell 12 million copies. MK1 has sold a third of that in less than a year. And outsold SF6 in less time while not being available for PS4 (that's over 100 million consoles out of the picture.)

MK9 took until 2013 to sell 4 million.

I think MK11 is the only game that's confirmed to have sold faster, and it was available on PS4+XB1, which at the time were mature platforms with 140 million consoles between them.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Is this true?

MKX took four years to sell 12 million copies. MK1 has sold a third of that in less than a year. And outsold SF6 in less time while not being available for PS4 (that's over 100 million consoles out of the picture.)

MK9 took until 2013 to sell 4 million.

I think MK11 is the only game that's confirmed to have sold faster, and it was available on PS4+XB1, which at the time were mature platforms with 140 million consoles between them.
I believe MK11 was 6mil+ after its first year, maybe even 7mil, can’t remember exactly. Then in year 2, it passed 12 million sold.

But did you read my post? That’s my point, lol. That MK1 isn’t available on all current platforms, MK11 was.