Should armoured moves be able to soak 2 hits instead of 1?

[rifraf]

Since there are so many ways to break armoured moves in this game by either using multihit normals or call a Kameo, paying 1 bar for an armoured move feels quite underwhelming imo.

I'm not saying to make them scrubby but I'd argue they're not that good to begin with. If I'm able to correctly predict my opponents next move AND I'm paying a bar, I SHOULD be able to counter their set play. In this game, I either have to jump through hoops to try and counter it or just hold it.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Armoured moves that can launch or turned into launchers are excluded.

 

[Kiss the Missile]

No. There's too many armored moves that turn into launchers now

 

[Law Hero]

Interesting question. I would lean towards "no" just because safe armored launchers exist for some characters, and those should absolutely have consistent counters. Curious to hear other opinions though.

 

[rifraf]

I agree, armoured moves that are able to turn into launchers shouldn't have that. But, what about the rest?

 

[LEGEND]

In general, I've always found the "hits of armor" design to be pretty shitty.

Certain moves should be designed to beat it, or the armor itself should have "holes" like a slow start up, only hits high, or only active during certain frames. Otherwise multi hitting moves always have to be designed with the consideration of armor in mind.

I think all armor should be infinite basically. Havik's armor is a pretty good design most of the time, of course it would be better off being slightly faster and not breakable at all. If Shao's armor was infinite, I'd consider it maybe the best armor design possible.

For this game in particular, armored launchers should be removed entirely imo.

 

[Mikemetroid]

I dont think so but I do think the mb d2 cancel should have armor for the entirety of the combo or at least longer, its still a useless mechanic.

For example, you WILL get owned by double sektor missiles, despite the armor saving you from one missile, its just not long enough to handle both. TWO BARS OF METER mind you....

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

There should be some form of standartzation or something. There is zero reason Mileena should have 1 hit of armor while Ashrah has 3, or for Nitara to have a high hitting, breakable armor, or shit like that. Imo they should all function like Smoke's/Shao's - launches or grants a combo if no hit is spent, can take one hit of armor for no combo, can be broken if someone reads you are doing it, should be unsafe if opponent blocks.

That way, there would always be the same mindgame of:

• you block, opponent does armor: you full punish. The counterplay is the opponent wakes up pressuring you because he called you out on you baiting HIS bait.
• you read armor wakeup and do armor breaking move, opponent does armor: same as above. Counterplay: armor breaking moves should be unsafe/lose to delayed wakeups/microducks.
• you dont block and get hit by armor without hitting opponent: you were caught by surprise, should eat a FULL combo.
• you dont block and try pressuring on wakeup (without reading an armored wakeup): opponent does armor, takes a hit and hits you, but neutral is reset.

 

[Kiss the Missile]

I dont think so but I do think the mb d2 cancel should have armor for the entirety of the combo or at least longer, its still a useless mechanic.

For example, you WILL get owned by double sektor missiles, despite the armor saving you from one missile, its just not long enough to handle both. TWO BARS OF METER mind you....

That sounds like good counterplay tbh. If someone is using their entire kameo bar for double missile outside of a combo, then that's a callout on your retaliation.

 

[zerosebaz]

Overall? No. But it could be a way to buff weaker characters a bit, like Reptile, whoses armor is terrible and coul still use some buffs as a character.

 

[Mikemetroid]

That sounds like good counterplay tbh. If someone is using their entire kameo bar for double missile outside of a combo, then that's a callout on your retaliation.

No I literally use it for the protection of 4 hits of armor. Isn't it weird? 4 hits of armor but what could possibly hit you that many times in a small window anyway?? It just doesn't seem like it lasts long enough. 2 bars of meter to counter 2 bars of kameo sounds fair to me. I'm trying to counter play THEM with that "4 hits of armor" but it just doesn't seem plausible. It works just fine against up missile, which is a different setup entirely. There isn't "oh I do the d2 mb and there happens to be missiles on the screen", its "I know hes going to do a high here to jail with the sektor missiles but I have d2 armor". It just doesn't work that way, which is fine, but I still think it should be a bigger window for the armor.

 

[Eji1700]

Just no.

Armor is in a decent place for the NRS fighters and they seem to have managed to get a pretty good grasp on how to use it as a decent safety valve.

As with all games stopping pressure from looping forever is weighed against making defense too strong, and I think in some ways MK is easier to learn than SF because it's got a block button and focus on armor vs invuln frames. If a character has a good setup that breakds armor and loops, fine, that can be their thing and if they don't want it to be then they can tweak that.

Changing how much armor everything has is just going to be a mess of a way to do it. I'm fine with the EX d2 getting a fuckload of armor (although I feel like you might as well make it infinite rather than some arbitrary amount like 4, or straight up invuln frames) because it's clearly an extra special case. If you want setplay to be worse then they should ideally nerf that set play, not massively shift the balance of the entire game with unforseen consequences.

 

[kabelfritz]

no. except havik. he needs infinite hits or the char is lost in some matchups and not competitive. raiden and takeda armor makes no sense imo if it can be blown up every time. but should they have 2 hits? these chars are so strong already, the bad wakeup is a tradeoff - but still, it doesnt really make sense. maybe 2 hits of armor but it costs 2 bars?

btw "shoutouts" to nrs for making the only safe armored move in the game also a launcher.

 

[Eldriken]

I say that maybe instead of adding another hit of armor, change the startup speed of armored wakeups. ONLY when used as an armored wakeup. That way the attack makes contact before the armor is broken.

I don't know if this will help, but I figure it's maybe a better option than adding more armor.

That or make them invincible, but every single one is fully punishable with whatever you want.

 

[Vulgar]

No.

 

[colby4898]

I think for Kameo moves yes. Like Kano's laser, Sektors Flamethrower, Sareena kick. They can't use a Kameo to make it launch, cos they are the Kameo, and would make them usable. Slow startup but 2 hits of armour.

 

[rifraf]

I think for Kameo moves yes. Like Kano's laser, Sektors Flamethrower, Sareena kick. They can't use a Kameo to make it launch, cos they are the Kameo, and would make them usable. Slow startup but 2 hits of armour.

That's a good idea. Kameo Scorpion's blades for example would've been much more usable if they had armour.

 

[Tom Brady]

Absolutely not... they tried this in MKX in the final patch where many armor moves now had 2 hits of armor and it was NOT a good idea

 

[Marlow]

I'd say no. I feel like it's in a decent spot, where the mechanic has it's uses and it's counters without being too overly present in the meta.

 

[Demon_0]

No. End of thread

 

[rifraf]

Absolutely not... they tried this in MKX in the final patch where many armor moves now had 2 hits of armor and it was NOT a good idea

I understand this may not be the way, but we need tools for counterplay.

Changing the subject slightly, away from armour to talk about some specific set plays which as far as I know have no counter play. One of them is Lao armoured launcher into Goro up punch, another is Tanya armoured launcher into Goro up punch. I'm probably missing a couple more but these 2 are the worst offenders.

I watched your video were you say MK1 is bringing more power and players need to adapt, but I feel this kind of power specifically has not been very healthy for the game. Anyone that played against these matchups I'm sure understands how frustrating is the experience. It's scrubby, very powerful, and it doesn't have counter play. Before you say, "well, don't get yourself in that situation in the first place", all things considered I think that's impossible. You just got to hold it.

NRS may buff things moving forward and these set plays may become less frequent, but that's a lot of maybes. I don't know the answer, but I think there should be some sort of counter play.

 

[Kiss the Missile]

That's a good idea. Kameo Scorpion's blades for example would've been much more usable if they had armour.

His blades? That's a launcher tho.

I'm fine with some characters having access to armored launchers, but I def don't think it should be a roster wide mechanic.

If you make that armor even more powerful you run the risk of making this game like MK11 where the defensive mechanics were so powerful it sometimes was the smartest move to just abandon oki

 

[kabelfritz]

His blades? That's a launcher tho.

I'm fine with some characters having access to armored launchers, but I def don't think it should be a roster wide mechanic.

If you make that armor even more powerful you run the risk of making this game like MK11 where the defensive mechanics were so powerful it sometimes was the smartest move to just abandon oki

or mkx where they had to completely patch out armored launchers.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Oh no!
armoured moves in a Fighting-Game is like putting plastic wrap around a Banana ... just retarded
look at MKX...