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Suggestion for changes as a last ditch effort to make this game not feel like a shallow puddle of loops.

SixPathsOfHate

Make triple skulls input BDF or DF Hold F
Edit: Fixed the copious amount of errors from formatting to spelling.

Universal Changes
-Holding Stance Switch while blocking slightly pushes back the opponent but drains 2% Bar every blocked hit. This block has a slight recovery similar to Up Block where you can be grabbed. Grabs do increased damage similar to Up Block.
-No Assist Call costs a FULL BAR on SINGLE PRESS. THIS INCLUDES HOLDING THE BUTTON.
-Having your animation interrupted should be the same animation when you recover from getting hit by the opponent's kameo during a breaker.
-If Assist Meter is full and you have 2 bars, you can breaker by holding assist with block. This will empty your Assist Meter.
-Can enhance Wake Up Assist Calls with the Block Button for 1 Bar to give them Armor.
-Normalize all Assist Hold Meter Drain values. Using a hitting your opponent On-Hit/Block while holding an assist will cause that drain to double.
-Landing a Forward Throw will increase Kameo regeneration speed for a 2 seconds.
-Pressing the Assist Button during certain moves that involve the assist will have them "linger" for a tiny bit. The duration the same for all Kameos
Purpose of Changes: Think of Quan Chi's Green Portal every time they hit you. Depending on the length of the move and if they use assists, you can push them out of range to punish them for overextending on block but not without risk of having it baited. Remove the "clunkiness" that many assists have by reducing all assist calls to Max 50% Assist Meter cost on initial cast. Adding an additional breaker that uses 2 bars+full assist meter lets the player choose between having the meter or the assist. Getting knocked down by your own assist during animations looks and feels bad. Increase the power of wake up assist calls by trading meter for armor. Normalizing Assist Meter drain values from holding lets you maintain a similar rhythm when playing and swapping between Assists with similar mechanics. It also lets assists be on the field longer while in neutral and less while attacking. Forward throws regenerating the Assist Meter and having assists linger after certain situations opens up more choice in how to engage an interaction that adds more layers to gameplay.

Darrius Suggestions
-Neutral Assist: Can be held to have Darrius stay out longer but drains Meter.
-Neutral Assist FOLLOW UPS: Can be canceled into from Appropriate Normals as if they were Summon Assists. Increase Input Window Duration.
-Back Assist: Can be held to spin up to 2 more times but massively drains the rest of meter. THIS APPLIES TO THE NEUTRAL FOLLOW AS WELL
-Forward Grab: Pressing the Assist Button will have Darrius "linger" for a tiny bit after the grab. Can go into NEUTRAL ASSIST FOLLOW UPS.
-Purpose of changes: Open up expression and new routes by allowing follow ups to be cancelled into and by increasing the follow up windows to allow for varied timings. Push the Utility of his Back Assist being a "Physical Projectile" that can be the answer to Anti-Projectile Moves while also giving the player an option to "cash out" if they get the hit. The increased Input Window also makes it easier to use and allows for Darrius to hold more space, increasing the mental stack of the opponent so it feels more like he's your "badass power ranger teammate. These changes should make him feel more like he's right there fighting along side you since they emphasize it so much in his animations.


Tremor Suggestions
-Neutral Assist
: Decrease Start-Up. No longer takes the Full Bar when cancelling into another Assist
-Down Assist
: Decrease Start-Up. No longer takes the Full Bar when cancelling into another Assist
Crystalline - Defensive

-Back Assist: Holding the Assist Button will cause Tremor to wait after hitting the ground. Letting go has him cast the buff. Holding drains meter. Increase the Application Range slightly.
-Forward Assist: Start-Up to 20 Frames from 25. Active Frames to 12 from 6. No longer hits the opponent.
Aftershock - Spacing

-Back Assist: Start-up to 23 frames from 27.
-Up Assist: Make it invincible to physical air attacks. Start-up to 16 frames from 20.
Metallic - Keep Away
-Up Assist: Replace this with the Overhead Ball Throw Back Assist Hold
Purpose of changes:
Clean up the purpose of each Variation and remove redundancies.
-Crystalline: Justify back assist's extremely long wind up. At first glance the armor looks strong until you realize a lot of characters can keep you stun locked for a large portion of it. Letting the player hold it adds a mental stack to both opponents and you. The reflect duration is insanely short and it's also super redundant as an attack with the Aftershock version being 8 frames safer at 0 on block and 5 frames faster with 20 frame startup, the same pushback and better range.
-Aftershock: The Back Assist feels bad to use on its own. Ending a combo with it is unlikely unless they're already grounded and we already have an ender with Forward Assist. The range is ok but not enough to justify using it in neutral as a check option since it's kinda slow. The potential threat of a low check thanks to the improved Back Assist might make an opponent want to jump which is where the Up Assist buff comes in.
-Metallic: Now that Aftershock has the "Anti-Air" Up Assist, the Up Assist here becomes redundant. It's 6 frames slower than Aftershock's at 20 frames while not even hitting Grounded Opponents. It has more range but the angle is pretty steep. With that explained, we can decouple Overhead and Low Rock Toss.


Shujinko Suggestions
-Neutral Assist:
Meditate now heals for 0.50 per second when near it. Can still be hit during meditate.
-Neutral Assist with Full Assist Meter: Shujinko goes straight into run and will continue to run until the Assist Button is pressed again. Neutral cancels the run and sends him away. Can cancel into Back, Forward, Stolen Move Assists from this run as an Ambush Kameo.
-Neutral Assist Hold: If hit by a projectile Shujinko will stop running and absorb it, filling 25% of the bar before going into meditate. Can only absorb 1 project per Assist Call and does not count towards Shujinko getting hit.
-Back Assist: When the Assist Meter is 50% or higher, increase Pushback and Block Advantage.
-Forward Assist: When Assist Meter is 50% or higher, increase Pushback and Block Advantage.
-Down Back Assist: Now costs half of the Assist Meter.
Purpose of changes: Add weight to Shujinko's choices while still allowing for player expression through being able to choose between defending Shujinko for a heal or using him for a zoning war. The heal also gives you a reason to use Shujinko during combos in a similar way you would use Sareena's drain so he has a purpose outside of doing the bare minimum, like an Assist that regenerates. Giving Shujinko access to his run when the Assist Meter is full lets the player still take advantage of his projectile absorbing utility and allows for new combos since he can act like a "ghetto Sento".


Motaro Suggestions
-Neutral Assist: Reduce Recovery to 33 Frames from 55. Can be cancelled into Neutral Assist or its variants.
-Neutral Assist Hold: Will teleport you to the Default Starting Distance.
-Forward Grab: Pressing the Assist Button will cause Motaro to "linger" for a tiny bit after the grab. You can cancel into Forward and Back Assist during this as an Ambush Assist.
-Down Assist: Costs 50% of Assist Meter, down from 100%.
Purpose of changes: The buffs to his Forward and Back Assists helped him a lot but he still suffers in neutral. Neutral Assist is mostly stuck being used for comboing only. This change opens up more teleport combo routes as well as makes "Teleport Trading" and teleporting after an attack more useful by allowing the player to chain the teleport. The Neutral Assist Hold adds a second option to add to the variability of the teleport.


Sektor Suggestions
-Forward Assist: Start-Up to 19, from 21. Hit Advantage to 21, from 19. Pressing the Assist Button again will cause Sektor to "linger" for a tiny bit after the animation. You can cancel into his other assists from this stance as an Ambush Assist
Purpose of change: Sektor is mainly a setup assist that can take advantage of Neutral Duck situations by using his Back Assist. His Forward Assist is an ender but it starts up slow and the range can be deceivingly short. The opponent may also fall out after the first hit if the gravity is too high making it hard to use for one of it's only purposes. The decreased Start-Up and increased Hit Advantage makes it easier to use as an ender. Allowing the player to cancel it into another assist lets them continue pressure with the Neutral Assist or cash out on damage by comboing into the Back Assist.


Scorpion Suggestions
-Neutral/Down/Up Assist: First fireball can now hit standing opponents as a HIGH ATTACK.
-Back Assist: Gain 3 hits of Armor. Fix the inconsistencies of what breaks the armor.
Purpose of changes: The Back Assist is weird with some double hitting attacks breaking it instantly like Shang's Ex Fireball but not against 2 normal hitting fireballs.


Frost Suggestions
-Neutral Assist Hold: Can cancel into other assists from this stance as Ambush Assists
-Forward Grab: Pressing the Assist Button will have Frost "linger" for a tiny bit after the grab. Can cancel into other assists from this stance as Ambush Assists
Purpose of changes: Forward Assist
travels fast and Back Assist is great for setups but both are a bit slow being in the mid 20s for Start-up but buffing the start up of both of these might push her over the edge. A way to reduce the strength of a raw numbers buff would be to allow for more options to get access to these tools like through Forward Grab or Neutral Assist Hold. With these changes she would let you Snowball a lot harder.


Subzero Suggestions
-Neutral Assist: Now Armors through projectiles instead of Invincibility.
-Back Assist: Start-Up to 19 from 23. Block Advantage to 3 from 0.
-Front Grab: Can now spend 2 Bar to Freeze them for a combo.
Purpose of changes: The nerf to his Neutral Assist allows his power budget to be allocated else where. Having a faster Back Assist allows for more block pressure and reduces situations where someone can D1 out on mash. Being able to combo after grab lets the player choose between burning the bar to save the kameo meter for his utility or using forward assist if you want to save the bar.


Cyrax Suggestions
-Neutral Assist: Now hit standing opponent's as a High Attack. Reduce Knock Up Height. Increase damage scaling. Opponent will always be sent away from the direction you are facing.
-Neutral Assist Hold: No longer costs a Full Bar. Increase Pushback On Block. Increase damage scaling.
-Back Assist: Hit Advantage to 140 from 221.
-Down Assist: Cyrax now lands behind the Opponent. Start-Up to 35 from 49.
-Forward Assist: Cyrax now comes from the back of the opponent and lands In Front of them similar to Old Down Assist. Start-Up to 35 from 49.
Purpose of changes: Neutral Assist Hold was over-nerfed and this buff returns some of its power with the the trade off being that it's harder to jail due to the increased Pushback On Block. The Neutral Assist is now easier to combo after now the randomness is taken out. It can also hit standing opponents before taking off so it adds a layer to Block Pressure. The trade off is that they deal less damage if you convert off the hit. Down and Forward Assist need to be easy to get rid of due to allowing the player to hold it but their positioning and Startup are lackluster and force them into specific combos when they come off more as setup tools. Due to the increased "comboability" of everything else, the Back Assist has had it's Hit Advantage nerfed. This also directly nerfs his Utility with Meter Drain since it does not last as long.


Goro Suggestions
-Neutral/Up/Down Assist: Now knocks up on Grounded Hit. Additional uses in a combo will greatly increase gravity.
-Forward Assist: Attacks are now Mid Attacks. Can cancel into other assists from this stance as Ambush Assists
-Back Assist: Start-Up to 23 from 28. Landing this grab will increase Assist Meter Regeneration for as long as the combo is active.
Purpose of changes: Allowing his Neutral/Up/Down Assist to combo opens up combo potential while lessening loops by increasing gravity after a second one is used. The Universal Forward Grab Assist Meter Regen change along with the Back Assist lets the Goro player continue hitting that drum if they can keep up the right reads. The Forward Assist changes adds layers to Block Pressure.


Jax Suggestions
-Neutral Assist: Holding the Assist Button prevents Jax from using Ground Pound but drains the meter.
-Down Assist: Start-Up to 20 from 25.
-Forward Grab: Second meter burn will "Pop-Up" the enemy for a combo.
Purpose of changes: Jax has abuse cases characters like Sindel and Scorpion but for the rest of the cast, he's kinda lack luster. He lacks decent neutral tools that his setup tools just dont cover for. Allowing the player to vary the Neutral Assist opens up more situations for it to land by varying the timing. The Forward Grab change pushes Jax further towards a combo first, setup second assist which is fine since most assist can combo but have a "roundabout" way of doing it. Down Assist should be safer to end Block Strings with to keep you safe.


Adding the rest later.
 
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Wigy

There it is...
Most of the kameos have one thing everyone uses and nothing else. Would be good if they gave the other stuff much faster timers, a lot of it is pretty good but feel like youre punishing yourself using.

tremor literally may as well have nothing but kameo low

striker baton stuff is the same etc etc
 
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SixPathsOfHate

Make triple skulls input BDF or DF Hold F
Most of the kameos have one thing everyone uses and nothing else. Would be good if they gave the other stuff much faster timers, a lot of it is pretty good but feel like youre punishing yourself using.

tremor literally may as well have nothing but kameo low

striker baton stuff is the same etc etc
LITERALLY why I dont use Tremor. He should feel like Khameleon in usage. It's like they decided to start giving the good tools out with Khameleon and soon to be Janet.
It's why I mentioned taking making all Kameos cost a MAX of 50% meter.
 

pure.Wasted

'ello baby, did you miss me?
Most of the kameos have one thing everyone uses and nothing else.
That's really not true, the vast majority of kameos use at least 2 of their abilities. Off the top of my head, Sareena, Cyrax, Stryker, Tremor and Frost are the only ones who occasionally veer into one trrick pony territory. And even most of them have an occasionally useful second skill.

That's not to say I wouldn't like to see kameo functionality expanded further. Especially switching some summons to ambushes.

Keep in mind also that kameos are designed with future characters in mind. and characters are designed with future kameos in mind. Just because something appears useless now doesn't mean it always will be, and doesn't mean there's a problem that needs fixing. We don't have the whole picture.
 

pure.Wasted

'ello baby, did you miss me?
I'm not ready to believe characters are designed with themselves in mind, bro. Let's not get carried away.
Lol. Memes aside though, is there a lot of characters you'd say that about in this game? I think that outside of maybe Scorpion, Reiko, Havik, and Shang, the rest of the roster ranges from well designed to extremely well designed. Balance issues aside.
 

YagamiFire

Mortal
Lol. Memes aside though, is there a lot of characters you'd say that about in this game?
Memes aside I think overall design in the game for the characters is all over the place. Yes, I 100% agree the ones you pointed out are bizarre in how they're designed or just outright badly designed and incoherent...and a lot of the other characters are fine (though often uninteresting to me which is personal taste) but the total package feels really wonky as a roster.
 

Wigy

There it is...
That's really not true, the vast majority of kameos use at least 2 of their abilities. Off the top of my head, Sareena, Cyrax, Stryker, Tremor and Frost are the only ones who occasionally veer into one trrick pony territory. And even most of them have an occasionally useful second skill.

That's not to say I wouldn't like to see kameo functionality expanded further. Especially switching some summons to ambushes.

Keep in mind also that kameos are designed with future characters in mind. and characters are designed with future kameos in mind. Just because something appears useless now doesn't mean it always will be, and doesn't mean there's a problem that needs fixing. We don't have the whole picture.
Goro
Subzero
Darius
Tremor
Striker
Lao

basically only ever use one of their kameo options outside some particular characters.
Tremor has about 9 different specials in which one is used and the rest of the time hes taking hits.

a number of kameos have one options thats just kinda buns.

Sonya leg grab.
Goro punch walk.
Cyrax bomb.

Mostly everything has some utility, but just the cooldown is rarely worth it when one thing is way better than the rest.

i totally get what youre saying- i think they just need to make some kameo things better or reduce the cooldowns
 

pure.Wasted

'ello baby, did you miss me?
Goro and Sonya, you should be using both of their conversions to optimize your damage.

Lao it depends on the character, a few characters only want him for hat always (Johnny, Sindel?) but most would do well to convert with him as well. Either through spin or tp.

Darius is useful for the restand, knockdown overhead launcher, and overhead launcher. That's 3.

Do people really not use Sub freeze? That seems like laziness tbh, like people only labbed Sub as "in case of emergency break glass" button in case they struggle with zoning and couldn't be arsed to find one new combo.

I agree with your last semtence. Balance can be better & hopefully we get there!
 

Wigy

There it is...
Goro and Sonya, you should be using both of their conversions to optimize your damage.

Lao it depends on the character, a few characters only want him for hat always (Johnny, Sindel?) but most would do well to convert with him as well. Either through spin or tp.

Darius is useful for the restand, knockdown overhead launcher, and overhead launcher. That's 3.

Do people really not use Sub freeze? That seems like laziness tbh, like people only labbed Sub as "in case of emergency break glass" button in case they struggle with zoning and couldn't be arsed to find one new combo.

I agree with your last semtence. Balance can be better & hopefully we get there!
Goro and sonyas combo starters have absolutely horrendous scaling is the main issue.

most sub kameo usage i see is runaway zoning and just to be mindlessly imunne to zoning the whole match. His frost shoulder is literally never used ever, dont know what NRS was smoking when they added the kameo which nobody will ever use.
 
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pure.Wasted

'ello baby, did you miss me?
Goro and sonyas combo starters have absolutely horrendous scaling is the main issue.
Ok but if you're already using those kameos, are you really not going to convert a hit confirm to get +150 meterless for free or +300 to close the round, just on principle?

I'm using Smoke Sonya rn and of course if I can, I convert off of r1, but you need leg grab to convert from f23 and a bunch of stuff in the corner. Otherwise no combos for you young man. So it's still incredibly useful.

most sub kameo usage i see is runaway zoning and just to be mindlessly imunne to zoning the whole match. His frost shoulder is literally never used ever, dont know what NRS was smoking when they added the kameo which nobody will ever use.
Maybe the move used to be strong and it was enough to make Sub very common, and with that all zoning characters suffered. So they tried to make him more niche for the health of the game. Things like that change in development. But who knows?

In general I don't think every ability for every kameo needs to be useful. That would be nice but it's a pretty low priority, imo.
 

CanoCano

Apprentice
While i don't agree with a small few of the changes here this is a pretty interesting list, definitely curious for what you're cooking up for other Kameos

If you don't mind, imma add the changes i'd make to Janet Cage

Forward Throw (Buff):
  • Holding Kameo during the Throw will now make her linger on screen for 6 seconds
  • During the linger she can cancel into Krotch Destroyer, Mime Time and Stunt Double as Ambush assists (Stunt Double will start out at 50% Kameo Meter and Krotch Destroyer has only 15 comboable frames)
Mime Time (nerf):
  • Decreased damage treshold down to 6% from 9%
  • Slightly increased meter drain on Hold
Stunt Double activation (nerf and change):
  • Stunt Double's activation recovery increased by 10 frames (Janet can still become actionable before you recover)
  • You can now exit Stunt Double manually by pressing Down+Kameo during it (gains +20% Kameo Meter when done)
Jane Diere (buff):
  • Decreased damage scaling
  • Hits Mid when mashed
Caged And Konfused (buff):
  • Decreased damage scaling
  • Spends less Kameo Meter when mashed
Box Office Bang (nerf):
- Now hits High
Box Office Bomb (nerf):
- Increased juggle scaling
Forceball (nerf and buff):
  • Added the option to do B1 and send out two High hitting Forceballs
  • Single Forceball now hits Mid
  • Increased damage scaling when used to escape a combo
  • Reduced blockstun on all versions
Shadow Kick (buff):
  • Decreased start up
  • Increased travel distance
  • Leaves opponent standing on grounded hit
Roundhouse (buff and nerf):
  • Increased damage to 12% from 9%
  • Increased damage scaling
Splits (buff and nerf):
  • Now regens 60% Kameo Meter by default
  • Kameo Meter regen drops by 20% each time it's used, only reset by exiting Stunt Double
Reason of changes:

- Being actionable after Forward Throw will allow Janet players to more easily set up her zoning and/or rushdown (whichever their main prefers) and prop up Krotch Destroyer as a combo/pressure move

- As a trade off for easier setup after Forward Throw, Mime Time is slightly less off a bullet sponge now and stays a slightly shorter period on screen

- Stunt Double's activation having such a short recovery allows it to have super strong Armour Break setups, this change hopes to lower their effectiveness while not completely removing them

- Jane Diere is seldom used in pressure, these changes hope to change that by making it a more guaranteed option while still being more costly than the rest

- Caged And Konfused faces similar issues as Jane Diere except in combos, these changes hope to change that by making it into a more damaging but more gravity inducing option

- Box Office Bang was a staple pressure option thanks to the Armour Breaks it gave, this change hopes to turn it into a less guaranteed but less costly option compared to Jane Diere

- Box Office Bomb was a staple combo tool due to the loops it gave, this change hopes to open up more options during combos

- Forceball is a staple move in zoning and defense due to how fast it is so these changes hope to build upon that and give the player more options while not turning this move into another Stryker Grenades (punishing stuff on hit)

- Shadow Kick is seldom used ever so these changes hope to turn it into a punish and setup tool

- Roundhouse is by and far Janet's best launcher so as to not make it completely overshadow Uppercut it's use as a looping launcher has been removed but its damage increased as a tradeoff

- The changes to Splits hope to make the players better consider how many moves Janet will do and when to use it, and to add further viability to cashing out with exiting Stunt Double manually as an option

Sonya Blade suggestions

Change List

Forward Grab
(buff and nerf):
  • You can spend 1 Bar to make the Throw launch the opponent
  • Damage goes down to 12% from 14% and down to 10% when enhanced
Square Wave (nerf and buff):
  • Increased gravity scaling when used more than once in a combo
  • Damage down to 3% from 6%
  • Kameo regen speed decreased to 7 seconds from 10
Leg Grab (buff and nerf):
  • Launches opponent when used as a reversal
  • Damage up to 8% from 3.6%
  • Start Up speed down to 20 frames from 29 frames
  • No longer vulnerable to Up Block
  • Kameo regen delay increased to 4 seconds from 1 second
  • Block advantage down to -15 from -9 and down to -20 on Flawless Block
Energy Ring (buff):
  • Decreased damage scaling when held
  • You can now dash cancel out of the Summon recovery at the cost of an extra Kameo bar
Reason Of Changes

- The Forward Throw changes hope to add a layer of mix to Sonya's gameplay other than just combo extensions, with less damage and some cost to balance it out

- Square Wave was nerfed to balance out the heightened comboability in the other moves and to make Sonya users better consider when to use it

- Leg Grab was seldom used compared to Sonya's other moves, these changes hope to fix that and turn it into a better defensive and combo tool with the added unsafety and meter heaviness as a tradeoff

- Energy Ring felt underpowered outside of combos, these changes hope to make it a better tool for zoning and pressure

Sareena Suggestions
Change List

Forward Throw (nerf):
  • Damage down to 10% from 12%
  • Hit advantage down to 0 from +9

Kia's Blades (nerf and buff):
  • Blades no longer come back on block
  • Increased damage scaling when used twice in a combo
  • Decreased damage scaling during first use in a combo
  • Kameo Regen delay reduced to 0 seconds from 3
  • Kameo Regen rate reduced to 7 seconds from 9

Old Moon (buff and nerf):
  • When used against an airborne opponent, the Blade will restand them and allow you to combo after it (won't work twice)
  • Increased damage to 10% from 6%
  • Added option to cancel it into
  • Jataaka's Curse at the cost of an extra Kameo Bar and longer Kameo Regen delay (8 seconds)
    [*]Base Kameo Regen delay increased to 3 seconds from 0


Demonic Dance (buff and nerf):
  • Damage increased to 10% from 6%
  • Holding Kameo will allow Sareena to linger on screen for 6 seconds and do any of her moves as Ambushes
  • Block advantage up to +5 from -3
  • Flawless Block advantage down to -10 from -3
  • Can no longer be comboed off of on hit
  • Kameo regen delay increased to 4.5 seconds from 1.5 seconds
Reason Of Changes

- Forward Throw's damage and hit advantage were nerfed to compensate for the increased damage output and setup potential of all of the other moves

- Kia's Blades reduced Sareena's combo and neutral schemes to just doing it over and over, these changes hope to undo that while not completely removing them as an option, also the Blades coming back on block was stupid even if it made some sick trade combos

- Old Moon felt underused outside of ending blockstrings or as a surprise neutral option, so these changes hope to fill the void from Kia's Blades combo nerf and to further enhance its use in pressure with the increased meter heaviness as a tradeoff

- Demonic Dance felt like it didn't have a place in Sareena's moveset, so these changes hope to promote it as a defense and pressure/setup tool with some drawbacks to compensate

What do y'all think of these changes? Will probably add more Kameos later
 
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Felipe_Gewehr

Twinktile
I want them to rework Tremor. Having every single move be a summon, unless you want to spend every bit of your gauge is absurd. It's fine for his earthquake and crystal armor, but there's no reason his other moves should have such harsh penalties.
The crystal armor is useless. I cannot think of a single application for it in its current state.
 

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
One universal kameo change I’d like is to not penalise the player for using Kameo moves with different regen times.

Currently if you use a move with a short regeneration time (for example Sareena’s single forward shot), then use a kameo with a longer regeneration time (Sareena’s double knife throw) the increased regeneration penalty is applied to the whole kameo bar instead of to half.

I’m happy with there being different regen times for stronger moves, but I would like them to be applied consistently to the gauge, regardless of what other moves are used.
 

Felipe_Gewehr

Twinktile
Why do you think so? Can't I do something like a grab and be much safer on whiff than otherwise?
In my opinion, the start up is just far too long, so you are frequently putting yourself at risk if using it as a summon. As an ambush, well, it takes the entire bar of meter and for what it does, its not much more useful than just regular blocking. The grab into ambush armor would require you to be expecting to be whiff punished for your grab and gambling the entire kameo bar for it, just for the fact it starts up slow, kinda nuts if you ask me.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
In my opinion, the start up is just far too long, so you are frequently putting yourself at risk if using it as a summon. As an ambush, well, it takes the entire bar of meter and for what it does, its not much more useful than just regular blocking. The grab into ambush armor would require you to be expecting to be whiff punished for your grab and gambling the entire kameo bar for it, just for the fact it starts up slow, kinda nuts if you ask me.
I do expect the opponent to punish me when they guess throw, so why wouldn't the armor be useful here?