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Are The Top Tiers Too Strong?

xRantex

Rante Inferno
If anyone needs a nerf, its certainly Raiden. He's both top teir / potential top 1, and has a gameplan / tools that are pretty unhealthy for the game. You can't seriously in one breath say Raiden shouldn't be nerfed, then say Smoke should be nerfed.
Ok but I don't see how they can even change it? Storm cell (a special move) cancelled into Kameo (if Kameo bar is available). A tactic most of the cast can do. I don't use Raiden/Kano I only use Raiden/Goro. If I don't have Kameo bar people combo me so I can't just throw it out there, also I use Kameo for a different part of my game plan.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
No they are not.. not at all...

all you have to do is watch competitive play to see massive diversity in the top 24s to Top 8s. MK1 is one of the most "balanced", as in how each character is viable, in MK history.

Tiers are just not a thing as much in fighting games as they used to be. Not with the patching and and so much effort into balancing. Every time you see one of those ridiculous tier lists, the next day you see someone win a major with a bottom tier.

I mean, that staked Brazillion thing was a few days ago was a Baraka (Stryker) vs Scorp (Kamerlon) final and the top 64 only just missed out having the ENTIRE roster represented.

This perceived "top tier" stuff is in peoples heads... the actual events tell the true story.
Did you read anything I said or just the title? Because this misses the point on everything I have said.

A low tier character doing well in a tournament happens. Because most people recognize that the player behind the character typically matters far more than the characters themselves. People see low tier doing well as evidence that the game is fairly balanced and the low tiers not being that far away from the top tiers. But this is being results oriented and not focusing on the context. Kinda like when you see a lopsided score of really any sports game, it doesn’t always tell the full story. Let’s take American Football for instance. Lets say the final score was X beating Y 45-10. By this final score, most would assume the game wasn’t close, and that X simply just dominated Y. But those who actually watched the game or have looked at the stats see a different story entirely. That 35 of those points were scored defensively on unforced turnovers. Such as the ball hitting the receivers hands and it luckily tipping into the defenses hands for a pick six. A fumble that was called a fumble on the field and led to a scoop & score and there wasn’t enough video evidence to overturn the call, but if you were there in person you had a clear angle to see that the player was clearly down and that the ground caused the fumble. More instances of this happening to account for the 35 points scored defensively on turnovers. And then you see that all of these turnovers occurred in the redzone, meaning the offense had amazing stats and significantly outgained the opponent and dominated them on both sides of the ball. Probably not a great example because if you don’t know much about American Football you probably have no idea what I’m talking about, lol.

Anyway, my point is, low tiers doing well in tournaments is not only due to the player, as I said in my posts, they’re having to work 10x harder than any of the top tiers just to be able to compete. I shouldn’t need to break down what that’d look like. Also, there’s a reason it’s such a big deal when players do so well in tournaments with low tier characters. It’s a unique phenomenon and one of the reasons for that is because you’re going in Knowing for a fact you’re going to have to work so much harder than everyone else who is using the top tiers, especially in this game. Because again as I said, the top tiers in this game almost all have such strong setplay on top of everything else they have, that you only have to start thinking/trying if the super strong setplay isn’t working, which is rare in and of itself.

I maybe should’ve titled this something different to avoid people just seeing the title and responding to it without reading anything I said, but that’s just how it goes sometimes. ¯\(ツ)
 

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
Ok but I don't see how they can even change it? Storm cell (a special move) cancelled into Kameo (if Kameo bar is available). A tactic most of the cast can do. I don't use Raiden/Kano I only use Raiden/Goro. If I don't have Kameo bar people combo me so I can't just throw it out there, also I use Kameo for a different part of my game plan.
Stormcell as a gameplan is really dumb, but outside of fully reworking the move, I also don't see what they can do outside of making it even more negative. What's most unhealthy though isn't his stormcell, but how free his runaway is. At the very least, whiffed aerial supermans should be significantly more negative or just not possible.
 

fr stack

Noob's saibot or noob saibot's?
Character specific cooldowns , make raiden have a longer cooldown when he picks certain kameos , same with the other top tiers i wouldnt mind their bullshit so much if it wasnt so quick to recharge
 

YagamiFire

Mortal
There's a few problems.

For one, the lack of meaningful options REALLY sucks and makes it hard to feel well rounded in the game because if a character is lacking something, they're lacking big time. They made an assist game just by adding assists...and nothing else that helps assist games functions. Push-block would be quite helpful, for instance. The game needs more meat on the bone. It is just MK11 + assists. it is not fundamentally designed to work...because I don't believe it was even designed. It was LITERALLY just made as MK11 + assists. That's it. There's no deeper thought to it. It was a gimmick slapped on, not a mechanic to build around.

As for characters, top tiers tend to feel complete. Lower characters feel incomplete. Can they compete? ABSOLUTELY. It's usually not fun though. I'm a Reiko-main (been waiting for my dude to come back since Armageddon) and he has nothing. NOTHING. He has a good projectile to spam and a mediocre AF grapple because NRS is terrified of making a grappler I guess just like they're now afraid to make zoners. Why? Probably cuz they know they're not good at making either competently so they said F it. Reiko should be the Dragunov of the game as a hybrid grappler...and instead does nothing at all and is reliant on a very very uninteresting, un-engaging gameplan. He can deploy these tools to win...but it's not overly fun at all. He doesn't have the breadth of options and abilities of someone like Raiden who just works with everything in the game. Reiko feels like 60% of a character.

As for the top tiers...I mean someone like Johnny seems like 120% of a character. Dude has an entire mechanic (star power) that doesn't even see real usage because it's totally superfluous and sub-par compared to what he can do otherwise (as pointed out very well by other posters previously). Raiden's storm cell? It FEELS unfun. It feels stupid. "Here, just eat this. What are your options? I already told you them. Eat this. That's it". When you are not engaging in meaningful counterplay with stuff, it feels unfun because it's boring. Did people have crazy 'unfair' stuff in MKX? Sure, absolutely...but you felt like you were engaging with them and often could answer back with your own 'unfair' stuff if you guessed right or outplayed the opponent. In MK1, it's all-too-often, "Oh did you guess right? Cool let me try again since you gain nothing for that".

It's just not engaging.

Most characters just don't feel fun. They don't feel strong or interesting. They feel like Variation characters...without being able to pick a variation.
 
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kabelfritz

Master
Why no one was playing Stryker before Cyrax nerf?
people didnt understand him or bother to try because the cyrax route was spoonfed to them. i was aware back then that his grenades option select into safety on block/ juggle on hit for pretty much everyone. now everyone knows that, yet still people nowadays dont fully utilize him. how often do i see tournament players desperately trying to dash in vs heavy zoning when they are just one handcuff activation away from shutting it down? or how often do i see darrius reduced to throw extender when he has hard to block setups and the highest damage combo ender in the game? tbh its pretty painful to watch a lot of kameo usage right now. its like people dont even want to try.
 
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Felipe_Gewehr

Twinktile
people didnt understand him or bother to try because the cyrax route was spoonfed to them. i was aware back then that his grenades option select into safety on block/ juggle on hit for pretty much everyone. now everyone knows that, yet still people nowadays dont fully utilize him. how often do i see tournament players desperately trying to dash in vs heavy zoning when they are just one handcuff activation away from shutting it down? or how often do i see darrius reduced to throw extender when he has hard to block setups and the highest damage combo ender in the game? tbh its pretty painful to watch a lot of kameo usage right now. its like people dont even want to try.
Bear in mind there is a lot of more useful kameo combinations than just "free pressure into stryker grenades".

Personally, I only use Lao (with Mileena), and Scorpion and Khameleon (with Reptile). The hard to blockables with Mileena are potentially a whooping 70% damage (35% combo starter into setup into another 35%) if they guess wrong, and free pressure for me if they guess right. Scorpion gives Reptile safe, guaranteed invisibility out of every hit, while also comboing from a midscreen low that no one seems to block consistently, while also giving him a safe fast overhead into a combo. Khameleon also gives him a fast (armor breaking) overhead, a full screen projectile that allows him to safely dash from FULLSCREEN, a safe combo extender projectile into the corner and a super jump that either extends his combos or makes him potentially safe after throwing some unsafe shit. Stryker does absolutely nothing of the sort for my characters, not in the way I prefer to play them.
 

fr stack

Noob's saibot or noob saibot's?
people didnt understand him or bother to try because the cyrax route was spoonfed to them. i was aware back then that his grenades option select into safety on block/ juggle on hit for pretty much everyone. now everyone knows that, yet still people nowadays dont fully utilize him. how often do i see tournament players desperately trying to dash in vs heavy zoning when they are just one handcuff activation away from shutting it down? or how often do i see darrius reduced to throw extender when he has hard to block setups and the highest damage combo ender in the game? tbh its pretty painful to watch a lot of kameo usage right now. its like people dont even want to try.
Its hilarious using darius on people , if they havent seen it in a youtube vid they dont know about it so i cheese a lot of ,,only a real master,, comebacks
 

kabelfritz

Master
Bear in mind there is a lot of more useful kameo combinations than just "free pressure into stryker grenades".

Personally, I only use Lao (with Mileena), and Scorpion and Khameleon (with Reptile). The hard to blockables with Mileena are potentially a whooping 70% damage (35% combo starter into setup into another 35%) if they guess wrong, and free pressure for me if they guess right. Scorpion gives Reptile safe, guaranteed invisibility out of every hit, while also comboing from a midscreen low that no one seems to block consistently, while also giving him a safe fast overhead into a combo. Khameleon also gives him a fast (armor breaking) overhead, a full screen projectile that allows him to safely dash from FULLSCREEN, a safe combo extender projectile into the corner and a super jump that either extends his combos or makes him potentially safe after throwing some unsafe shit. Stryker does absolutely nothing of the sort for my characters, not in the way I prefer to play them.
scorpion is an amazing kameo as well. the damage he can get you from nothing is ridiculous and he fits on a lot of chars. plus his pullback has invulnerability frames and the -30 overhead is a rather tight punish, because scorpion will eat the hit if mistimed. hes super good with li mei as people have figured out but he can do so much more. i used to play raiden with him before the damage nerf :cool:
 
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