What Happened, NRS?!

[Eji1700]

For whatever reason....

The reason is mass appeal.

Starcraft 2 had to sell more than starcraft did, and while a bunch of high APM nerds loved the fuck out of grittyish sci fi, that doesn't move units (to the lousy marketing people...). So instead of getting a subversion with Raynor swearing he'll kill kerrigan, we've got to force the romance.

Every example you cited is an example of something shifting from "large" to "IMMENSE" in it's popularity and scope, and yes there's often a huge dip in quality with these things because there's a lot of lazy marketing/business degree bean counters who want everything focus tested to death.

Gaming, as an industry, exploded in the 2000's. Call of Duty, mass effect, WoW, and a million other little factors all combined and took an industry that, before this, was mostly focused on passion projects that could be successful, to multi million dollar projects that MUST be successful. MK is no outlier there, and it's probably one of the funniest examples because in a game where I can kill people in a million and a half ways, the entire plot feels like focus tested garbage where everyone is nice and well meaning and gosh they could just all get along (except for sub zero who is objectively literally the most evil character in the game and it's super fucking weird but also not something that matters).

 

[Juxtapose]

The reason is mass appeal.

I have not doubt that's absolutely a reason. And you're right. All of those franchises grew hugely through that time. As has Mortal Kombat.

So instead of getting a subversion with Raynor swearing he'll kill kerrigan, we've got to force the romance.

Interestingly, Raynor's behaviour and character in StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty did make a lot of sense based on the original game, and the depression/alcoholism he developed dealing with his own guilt through the interbellum.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

If I had an opinion on why MK1 has been losing appeal it might just have to do with DSyncs and horrific Netcode so the game is practically unplayable online and offline is a grindfest.

Then adding to it is MK9, MKX and MK11 with horrific balancing choices where they quite literally killed several characters while being selective with a handful of chosen God Tiers.
MK9 and MKX where great in their own ways but they had horrific online and numerous glitches and very dumb hitbox issues like female hitbox's not allowing same combos as would work on male characters. MK9 also had Player 1 Advantage the entire life of the game and very crazy frame data.

When MK11 came out it was balanced better but they took the nerf everything into the ground approach which made it even more limited and stale than it was. The thing I think that made it more popular than previous MKs was the fact the online Netcode was very good, at least far better than any MK. You could actually play it online at 3f static Rollback. But for me and many others it was very simplified and boring with a stale poke/throw meta and any cool tools that made characters fun was removed via NERFs that where poorly thought out.

MK1 has a great solid core gameplay, one of the best with incredible veriety using Kameos, the world's your oyster like Rofflemonger would say (that crazy Canadian we all love)
The main problems I see is simple:
• online Netcode is unstable.
• DSyncs preventing online gameplay.
• several bottom tier characters have unnecessary safeguards and are feeling incomplete like some Kameos. It's the why would I use Sub Zero or Scorpion when I could use Ashrah, Raiden or Geras or Liu Kang. They need to Buff all Kameos to the level of Khameleon which is a great standard for Kameos. Buff bottom tiers so their a little more solid and don't have to use one Kameo and can be more creative like Top Tiers can do.
The thing I know most top players agree on is the bottom 5 characters before Khameleon released: Sub Zero, Quan, Scorpion, Reptile, Nitara and many have Havik 6th.
They have many unnecessary safeguards with risky gameplan ls that's limited to a simplistic strategy with some being punishable on everything or incapable of Kameo synergy.
I don't think any pro player would have a problem with buffing bottom tiers so they could use more Kameos and in turn more playstyles.
Then buff Kameos to be with the top 3 Kameos so every Kameo has better strength and utility so we have more diversity and players don't feel like they have to play a specific way with their chosen favorite character. A character like Raiden/Johnny/Kenshi can use pretty much any Kameo and be good, they have best Kameo that helps a specific playstyle but can use several unlike Scorpion and Sub and some others.
Khameleon is a great change because she can synergize with almost every character, very strong but complex, both good things IMO.

• Invasions Mode: I know many competitive players like myself don't care about offline single player modes but the vast majority of customers do. It's a grindfest and boring as hell and very difficult to level characters and Kameos Mastery to unlock skins. Nobody wins here. We all want Skins and some want outside modes to explore lore.

Mainly it's DSyncs and Netcode but I think after that's fixed they should start slowly buffing bottom tiers and rest of Kameos and do what they can to make offline not grindy and more rewarding. The game would be great, then their patches would be bug fixes and adding game modes when they drop DLC

Everything wrong with MK1 is fixable.
But it's also important to remember previous MKs had numerous problems and MK1 isn't some outlier. Yes MK1 feels unfinished, it is, but it also has great gameplay if they can just fix the damn Netcode and DSyncs.
Many are frustrated because they can't play the game and NRS has a horrible track record of fixing things.

The saving grace is NRS has worked much faster in MK1 compared to previous games. For example it only took 2 weeks to fix Player 1 Advantage (MK9 never did in 8 years), and DSyncs was fixed on PC in a week and 2 additional weeks for XBOX. Only PS5 isn't fixed currently a month after the problem presented itself, but from what I hear the DSyncs issue is not easy to fix and was different for every platform and they are going through multiple teams and third parties.
So in one hand I don't have much faith in old NRS and still don't, but they have done things much better with quicker fixes and even balancing than ever before.
They seem to be listening IMO, let's not forget the community asked for character intros in hoards on Twitter/X under Mortal Kombat official Twitter/X posts. Fans said vs, offline, towers and Invasions felt bland without them, we(competitive players) are 0.01% of the community and our interests are far different than the majority, we want gameplay changes, online modes and Netcode, they want offline content and everyone wants more customization. NRS rushed intros out and even tried running it on PC first, then when they seen the problem reported they started working on the fix on PC first instead of doing a live fix on all platforms. Then ran into problems where what worked on PC didn't work on XBOX and what worked on Xbox didn't work on PS5. (F Switch lol)

Maybe it'll be fixed, I think it will based on what's actually happened in these 4 months. Man I waited years on previous MKs to get one thing fixed and they screwed the pooch on MKX and MK11. Like they murdered characters in patches and then left the same exact "Broken" tools with select Top Tiers in for years, which ironically had far better versions of the tools. Let's not even talk about hitbox issues in every NRS game

 

[PrinceGoro]

If I had an opinion on why MK1 has been losing appeal it might just have to do with DSyncs and horrific Netcode so the game is practically unplayable online and offline is a grindfest.

Then adding to it is MK9, MKX and MK11 with horrific balancing choices where they quite literally killed several characters while being selective with a handful of chosen God Tiers.
MK9 and MKX where great in their own ways but they had horrific online and numerous glitches and very dumb hitbox issues like female hitbox's not allowing same combos as would work on male characters. MK9 also had Player 1 Advantage the entire life of the game and very crazy frame data.

When MK11 came out it was balanced better but they took the nerf everything into the ground approach which made it even more limited and stale than it was. The thing I think that made it more popular than previous MKs was the fact the online Netcode was very good, at least far better than any MK. You could actually play it online at 3f static Rollback. But for me and many others it was very simplified and boring with a stale poke/throw meta and any cool tools that made characters fun was removed via NERFs that where poorly thought out.

MK1 has a great solid core gameplay, one of the best with incredible veriety using Kameos, the world's your oyster like Rofflemonger would say (that crazy Canadian we all love)
The main problems I see is simple:
• online Netcode is unstable.
• DSyncs preventing online gameplay.
• several bottom tier characters have unnecessary safeguards and are feeling incomplete like some Kameos. It's the why would I use Sub Zero or Scorpion when I could use Ashrah, Raiden or Geras or Liu Kang. They need to Buff all Kameos to the level of Khameleon which is a great standard for Kameos. Buff bottom tiers so their a little more solid and don't have to use one Kameo and can be more creative like Top Tiers can do.
The thing I know most top players agree on is the bottom 5 characters before Khameleon released: Sub Zero, Quan, Scorpion, Reptile, Nitara and many have Havik 6th.
They have many unnecessary safeguards with risky gameplan ls that's limited to a simplistic strategy with some being punishable on everything or incapable of Kameo synergy.
I don't think any pro player would have a problem with buffing bottom tiers so they could use more Kameos and in turn more playstyles.
Then buff Kameos to be with the top 3 Kameos so every Kameo has better strength and utility so we have more diversity and players don't feel like they have to play a specific way with their chosen favorite character. A character like Raiden/Johnny/Kenshi can use pretty much any Kameo and be good, they have best Kameo that helps a specific playstyle but can use several unlike Scorpion and Sub and some others.
Khameleon is a great change because she can synergize with almost every character, very strong but complex, both good things IMO.

• Invasions Mode: I know many competitive players like myself don't care about offline single player modes but the vast majority of customers do. It's a grindfest and boring as hell and very difficult to level characters and Kameos Mastery to unlock skins. Nobody wins here. We all want Skins and some want outside modes to explore lore.

Mainly it's DSyncs and Netcode but I think after that's fixed they should start slowly buffing bottom tiers and rest of Kameos and do what they can to make offline not grindy and more rewarding. The game would be great, then their patches would be bug fixes and adding game modes when they drop DLC

Everything wrong with MK1 is fixable.
But it's also important to remember previous MKs had numerous problems and MK1 isn't some outlier. Yes MK1 feels unfinished, it is, but it also has great gameplay if they can just fix the damn Netcode and DSyncs.
Many are frustrated because they can't play the game and NRS has a horrible track record of fixing things.

The saving grace is NRS has worked much faster in MK1 compared to previous games. For example it only took 2 weeks to fix Player 1 Advantage (MK9 never did in 8 years), and DSyncs was fixed on PC in a week and 2 additional weeks for XBOX. Only PS5 isn't fixed currently a month after the problem presented itself, but from what I hear the DSyncs issue is not easy to fix and was different for every platform and they are going through multiple teams and third parties.
So in one hand I don't have much faith in old NRS and still don't, but they have done things much better with quicker fixes and even balancing than ever before.
They seem to be listening IMO, let's not forget the community asked for character intros in hoards on Twitter/X under Mortal Kombat official Twitter/X posts. Fans said vs, offline, towers and Invasions felt bland without them, we(competitive players) are 0.01% of the community and our interests are far different than the majority, we want gameplay changes, online modes and Netcode, they want offline content and everyone wants more customization. NRS rushed intros out and even tried running it on PC first, then when they seen the problem reported they started working on the fix on PC first instead of doing a live fix on all platforms. Then ran into problems where what worked on PC didn't work on XBOX and what worked on Xbox didn't work on PS5. (F Switch lol)

Maybe it'll be fixed, I think it will based on what's actually happened in these 4 months. Man I waited years on previous MKs to get one thing fixed and they screwed the pooch on MKX and MK11. Like they murdered characters in patches and then left the same exact "Broken" tools with select Top Tiers in for years, which ironically had far better versions of the tools. Let's not even talk about hitbox issues in every NRS game

Very well summed up,id like to add though that on top of all of these issues you have the very very aggressive monetization in a Premium full price game thats just that extra punch in the gut,as if the games issues were not enough.Even if the game was in perfect state this monetization would still be unacceptable,this is not a F2P game.

There is a very simple and clear path to make this right,it all depends on if they are up to it and if their corporate overlords allow it,safe to say im not optimistic about it.

They need to sort out the online connection,we are supposed to have ggpo,it doesnt feel like it at the moment,
Obviously fix the horrendous dsyncs that make online unplayable no matter if the connection is good or not.
Bring essential features to the online component of the game fitting for game released in 2023 by a triple A studio,that should have been there at launch(lobby system,rooms,filters,crossplay,online practice mode.practice while searching both kasual and ranked,bring back FT3 and so on)
Revamp invasions,into a potentially brand new mode(yeah its that bad),introduce additional game modes,revamp the xp system and make xp gains greater in all modes,including klassic towers.These are in my opinion the key aspects that greatly hold the game back and affect all players casual and competitive.
Additionally the monetization just needs to go,either drop it completely or introduce a steady and a fair way to earn Dragon krystals,that respects the players time.

In conjunction with this also continue to work on balance for fighters and kameos,with potentially adding new moves(strings and specilas) to fighters,as i think fighters in general should feel a bit more complete on their own and could really use additional moves,as well as utility in their current move sets.
The core gameplay of MK1 is good and fun imo,and i enjoy playing it,the combo system is fun and has depth,the roster is incredible(though small and kp1 guests suck),so i really do hope they put their hard hats on and fix those issues cause it is a fun game to play.

 

[Onilordasmodeus]

I want to put forth again that people need to stop obsessing about "power levels." We see real-world examples of underdogs winning in fighting games, sports, corporate battles, friendly rivalries, etc. A character's "power level" is not absolute and does not mean immediate victory.

Sorry for the slight rant, but yeah…

Power scaling is just hindsight, looking back at what happened in a story and giving the events and feats within it some type of order. In new stories you can stand to be a bit inconsistent for the story’s sake, but still you have to be believable. In an established story, you have to just work to be consistent with what came before. In MK, characters have established power sets, feats, and abilities. When a story creates an inconsistent outlier with those characters, the greater narrative can suffer for it.

Kotal was a new character in MKX, but they set him up as a powerful fighter in the story (see his intro chapter). Not only that though, he was set up to be the Emperor of Outworld, the successor of Shao Kahn/Mileena, and that comes with baggage. But going even further, he was a prominent figure in the MKX comic where he was seen to have the power to destroy whole naval war ships in one shot due to his ability to harness the power of the sun. Kotal was set up to be POWERFUL, but yet he was still below Shao Kahn in terms of ability. Kung Jin defeating Kotal in a serious death match...in the middle of Outworld’s market place...in front of his generals and subjects...IN DIRECT SUNLIGHT...is just ridiculous.

This type of “scaling” is unbelievable for people in the know, especially since the story NEVER set up Kung Jin to have done anything of note before this. For all intents and purposes, Kung Jin was just a nobody Shaolin fighter at the time of that fight. Still though, it would have been OK if somewhere (anywhere) in the story they gave us a reason why Kung was as powerful / skillful as that scene portrayed, but they didn’t. So yeah, even new comers to the MK lore have had issue with this, and at the end of the day it only stood to put Kotal in a poor light, and make him into a jobber. NOBODY TOOK KOTAL SERIOUS AFTER THIS.

And that is another one of the HUGE issues with NRS and this stories they have been telling since MK9. So many characters have been relegated to the jobber tiers as to lift up other characters and give them some credibility in the stories they are telling. And this applies to Cassie beating amped Shinnok as well, as not only was this just straight up not believable, in only stood to muddy the story that much further. Shinnok has the power to affect planets on a whim, to create demon armies with a thought, the power to defeat 2 protector gods with little to no issue. So for that fight they either buffed up the green glow to match an AMPED EG, or they seriously de-powered Shinnok so that Cassie could compete with an EG (not to mention the added power he had with Earth’s Jinsei).

Does Cassie really have the power to match Earthrealm’s Jinsei just sitting inside her?

Regardless, if you CHOOSE to just accept these things, and just move past them to get to the next story bit, then you do the overall narrative a disservice. I'm thinking of Star Wars and how the narrative in those movies would have suffered if Luke had defeated Palpatine in hand to hand at the end of the first movie. The Great and powerful Sith Lord defeated in front of his people...with no explanation mind you...and left alive…by a relative nobody with no notable accomplishments under his belt. It would be ridiculous, and stupid, and would leave movie goers wondering how and why. Making a story unbelievable is just poor storytelling.

At least in Star Wars they have a concept like the force to lean on, their deus ex machina to explain away just about everything, but MK really never had that.

 

[Juxtapose]

Kotal was a new character in MKX...

I'm confident we've discussed Kotal before, though in case it was with others: Kotal is not and never was up to the abilities of the stronger characters in the franchise. He's a very human character who is arrogant, proud, and always bites off more than he can chew. He's interested in power, idolized Shao, and is generally a good military leader and effective general.

He is a horrible civil leader and emperor, however.

In the Mortal Kombat X comics, he fled to Earthrealm to avoid his parents after they bowed to Shao, and he luxuriated in being treated as a god by the Aztecs and leading them to military victories over the Spanish. And then he got them all killed through bacteria/disease. In several battles in the comic's present day, he over extends himself to defeat and provokes conflicts that are not needed. In his lust for revenge against Goro, he draws on the Kamidogu's Blood Magic to empower himself and makes himself susceptible to the control of said magic, allowing himself to be turned into a puppet later on.

In the game, we constantly see him misjudge characters, and situations, to his own ruin. He seized the throne from Mileena under false pretenses, started a civil war, and Outworld was in chaos since.

The Shaolin trained the likes of Liu Kang and Kung Lao, extremely accomplished and formidable warriors for Earthrealm. Kung Jin had the attention of Raiden himself, and was also trained by the Shaolin. Saying Jin can't defeat Kotal in Kombat is like saying Liu can't defeat Goro. Liu took Goro fairly. Kotal needed Blood Magic. While being in the sun.

The problem here isn't the writting, but people's misperception of the character of Kotal and trumping him up to be something he's not. Note I'm saying all of this as someone who really likes Kotal; he's a fantastic character.

For Cassie, the whole green energy/god killer thing was her big-deal-birthright. I'm not huge on it either, but it is what it is.

... then you do the overall narrative a disservice.

No. The narrative is what it is and I have no jurisdiction over it, same as you. If it bothers you enough, your option is to simply not play it/engage in it. They've been writting stories likes this for over a decade now, and people have been complaining througout. It's not changing simply by complaining about it.

 

[Onilordasmodeus]

First you complain that characters don't get enough development, then you complain that The Cage Family - arguably the most fleshed out group in the story - got too much development. Sigh.

Read my above explanation regarding Kung Jin and Cassie. And I didn't complain about the Cage family getting to much development. My only gripe with them is the amount of focus that was put on them. But whatever, as I said before, I love all the MK characters.

Also yeah, Cassie v Shinnok was foreshadowed. They had a whole ass conversation about green energy that you didn't pay attention to at the very beginning. What the...

They did explain Kung Jin going to Outworld. It was an assignment given to him and the other Kombat Kids.

Erron didn't just "appear." He's a mercenary that works for Kotal Kahn. That's all you needed to know for his role to work. He's a goon. A henchman. Same for Ferra/Torr. Again, none of this is as complicated as you make it out to be.

I remember the conversation between Johnny and the Kombat Kids in the beginning. That didn’t explain who Cassie was able to match an amped Elder God. I remember the story bit about Kung Jin being educated in Outworld customs and all that. That doesn’t tell anyone why or how Kung Jin is skilled enough to defeat Kotal Kahn. I also remember Erron walking up to the Kombat Kids after they arrived...just appearing in the story, as how Ferra/Torr did...with a little explanation from Kung Jin about Symbiots. None of that changes anything about what I’ve said.

Also....talking about "power level" inconsistencies is some anime brain rot. If you can buy that Stryker - a guy with a gun, that's his whole deal, he uses guns and grenades - can fight Kintaro and not die instantly then I don't see what the problem is. The main protagonist overcoming overwhelming odds and defeating the main antagonist is a staple in all kinds of story telling.

Again, see above for my power scaling issue. But MANY people have issue with how NRS has been telling their modern stories. I can believe Stryker defeating Kintaro given the right circumstances, that is all well and good. The only question is what are those circumstances.

I really think the issue we are having here, is that I'm actually trying to use my brain to enjoy these stories, where you are more than willing to turn your brain off and, NOT ENJOY the story, but enjoy the flashing lights and jibber jab that comes out of the speakers. It doesn't matter what was said or shown to you. It was just a dumb story that made relative sense and that was all you ever wanted or needed.

Honestly, a lot of these are just cinema sins ding tier, nit-picking complaints and scrutiny that the vast majority of FG stories wouldn't stand up to.

You could go back to the original Midway Trilogy and find tons of this stuff. If every character got the amount of backstory and development you wanted, story mode would be 7 hours long and no one would play it.

It's an ensemble story (all of the modern MKs are) and we're not dealing with scrolling text boxes anymore. Stuff is gonna get cut for time so that Story Mode is actually playable.

I think you're looking for something that MK was never trying to be.

I can objectively say that the story telling from the Midway days is better than what we have today. NO DOUBT. There was/still is inconsistencies in those old stories, but there is WAY more stupidity and inconsistency in the modern era.



I was really hoping with MK1 that NRS would get away from the movie/story mode and go back to a Konquest type mode where THEY COULD TAKE THEIR TIME AND TELL A MORE FLESHED OUT STORY, but that isn't what we got. I'm really the type to accept what is given and just move on, which I have, but that doesn't mean what we got was good, let alone equal to or better than what came before.

 

[Art Lean]

I was really hoping with MK1 that NRS would get away from the movie/story mode and go back to a Konquest type mode where THEY COULD TAKE THEIR TIME AND TELL A MORE FLESHED OUT STORY, but that isn't what we got. I'm really the type to accept what is given and just move on, which I have, but that doesn't mean what we got was good, let alone equal to or better than what came before.

I fear that the gaming world of today of pro-gamers, Twitch streams and e-sports tournaments means that they're only interested in monetizing a game that can be marketed towards short-term PvP monetization whilst the actual fictional world MK has created will forever be a marketting gimic rather than a proper fantasy universe fans can love and enjoy properly like Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings, Marvel, DC, or whatever across multiple mediums and truly indulge in.

The lore is so huge, the capabilities of modern graphics so gorgeous, I'd happily, and I mean this, have the franchise move into Ghost of Tsushima RPG territory and never look back. I freely admit it's where I kept hoping the franchise might go with Mythologies, which admittedly turned out to be a rather unplayable clunker, but then had a home run with both Deception's Konquest and Shaolin Monks, and I kept hoping they'll realise that the world they had created was so much bigger than the confines of an arcade 1 on 1 beat 'em up. Threshold's Lawrence Kasanoff described MK as "Star Wars meets Enter the Dragon" and was the very reason he was so desperate to expand the franchise into multimedia in the 90s, and it's true.

I'm actually quite sad that after all these years and all these enhancements in technology, the franchise just keeps scaling back further and further. Seems counter-intuitive to me personally, but I guess there's more lucrative insta-cash in a Twitch-streamed e-sports tournament for MK1 than there is for an insular Ghosts of Tsushima single player adventure that just descends into Tobias lore and world-building. I select my character in MK1 and watch them walk out from the blossom trees and all I honestly want to do is explore the stunning Thai mountains beyond, I want to see what's out there and what stories there are to tell. After more than 30 years as a devoted fan, now in my 40s, I'm seriously not bothered about who has the best combos or how many frames a move has on block. I'd rather explore Zaterra for myself and learn how Khameleon became an umgadi, than ever play a Kombat League fight ever again. It's ridiculous, but I'm more excited for the new Mortal Kombat 2 movie than any patches MK1 will have, at least the former will explore some lore, even if it's made up some of its own.

I know I'm probably a real outsider weirdo here, but I love this franchise's universe, more than many of the games if I'm honest. In the late 90s and early 2000s I felt they were on the same page as me, wanting to break free of the boundaries of the confines of a beat 'em up and turn MK into this incredible Eastern fantasy-meets-Western horror-martial artists franchise, but since e-sports became a thing, I feel MK has regressed sadly, which is frustrating as hell when the technology is there to make spin-offs a million times more incredible than the forgiveable missteps they first attempted 27 years ago.

And wow, the first spin-off MK Mythologies is older than most of the people they're probably targetting today to buy the games, and guess that says it all But guess I'm not the target audience anymore. I remember Mortal Monday like it was yesterday, getting MK1 on the SNES was honestly something of a life-changing moment for me as a butterfly effect. But that was over 30 years ago, yet still feels like yesterday... in another 30 years I'll be in my 70s. Feel like I should start writing my will already...

 

[Onilordasmodeus]

I'm confident we've discussed Kotal before, though in case it was with others: Kotal is not and never was up to the abilities of the stronger characters in the franchise. He's a very human character who is arrogant, proud, and always bites off more than he can chew. He's interested in power, idolized Shao, and is generally a good military leader and effective general.

He is a horrible civil leader and emperor, however.

In the Mortal Kombat X comics, he fled to Earthrealm to avoid his parents after they bowed to Shao, and he luxuriated in being treated as a god by the Aztecs and leading them to military victories over the Spanish. And then he got them all killed through bacteria/disease. In several battles in the comic's present day, he over extends himself to defeat and provokes conflicts that are not needed. In his lust for revenge against Goro, he draws on the Kamidogu's Blood Magic to empower himself and makes himself susceptible to the control of said magic, allowing himself to be turned into a puppet later on.

In the game, we constantly see him misjudge characters, and situations, to his own ruin. He seized the throne from Mileena under false pretenses, started a civil war, and Outworld was in chaos since.

The Shaolin trained the likes of Liu Kang and Kung Lao, extremely accomplished and formidable warriors for Earthrealm. Kung Jin had the attention of Raiden himself, and was also trained by the Shaolin. Saying Jin can't defeat Kotal in Kombat is like saying Liu can't defeat Goro. Liu took Goro fairly. Kotal needed Blood Magic. While being in the sun.

We've never talked about Kotal...and WOW...I've never heard a take like that about him. I'm gonnna have to get back to this take on Kotal later after I re-read the comic as I remember the story beats you are mentioning, but not in the light of how you are trying to portray them.

But yeah, Kotal took Mileena’s thrown under false pretenses? She legit DIDN'T have a right to the thrown as Shao had no heirs, and he didn't pass the thrown down. Mileena ASSUMED the thrown as Kahn's heir under the pretense that she was 1) his daughter, and 2) Edenian. And the Edenians only backed her in MKX after Kotals coup because they (Rain and Tanya) saw an opportunity to seize power for themselves. Not to mention that Outworld had been suffering under Mileena's rule (according to Kotal and his coup).

The Shaolin...they trained A LOT of people through the centuries. Liu and Kung Lao rose above them all, equaling the Great Kung Lao, proving themselves special. What did Kung Jin do? Ok, he had Raiden's eye, so then what did he do? Liu beat Goro (and Shang, and Shao) in the Mortal Kombat tournament. A MAJOR feat in the grand scheme of the series...but there in lays a HUGE issue...in the modern era, beating Goro has become a nothing feat.

Regardless, Kung Jin had literally done nothing until he smooth talked Kotal and defeated him in an impromptu death battle. Kotal had seen centuries of war, shown tremendous power and skill... You can say this is a feat for Kung Jin...I'll give it to him, but at the end of the day it only served to retire Kotal as a serious contender, and make it so that any other character who defeats him…it really means nothing.

The problem here isn't the writting, but people's misperception of the character of Kotal and trumping him up to be something he's not. Note I'm saying all of this as someone who really likes Kotal; he's a fantastic character.

For Cassie, the whole green energy/god killer thing was her big-deal-birthright. I'm not huge on it either, but it is what it is.

No. The narrative is what it is and I have no jurisdiction over it, same as you. If it bothers you enough, your option is to simply not play it/engage in it. They've been writting stories likes this for over a decade now, and people have been complaining througout. It's not changing simply by complaining about it.

Again, I'm gonna re-read the Kotal portion of the comic and get back to you, but on the overall modern MK narrative, you're right, I don't have jurisdiction over it, thus I'm not campaigning to have it changed. After a decade of movie-story modes, I have grown tired of the format, which is why I want something different. That being said, I can want all I want, it means little to WB/NRS.

Objectively though, the story modes are flawed, and at some point I hope NRS goes back to the drawing board to do something different. I think the OG Konquest modes allowed for a lot more engagement and immersion in the game/world, thus that has my vote. But yeah, here’s me shouting into the void…

 

[Juxtapose]

We've never talked about Kotal...and WOW...I've never heard a take like that about him.

Interesting, it must have been with others then, as I've discussed this several times here on this site (and elsewhere). Kotal is a great character, and part of what I love about him so much is his human flaws and hubris. In both the comics and the games, he constantly causes his own issues as he's stepped above his station.

She legit DIDN'T have a right to the thrown as Shao had no heirs, and he didn't pass the thrown down.

In Mortal Kombat (2011), Shao acknowledges Mileena as his true daughter and heir. In Mortal Kombat 11, when he learns that D'Vorah killed her, he was furious. Mileena is without question his heir by his decree, as she called it.

And the Edenians only backed her in MKX after Kotals coup because they (Rain and Tanya) saw an opportunity to seize power for themselves.

Rain only, actually. In the Story Mode, Tanya actually appears to be loyal to Mileena and believes she'll grant a free Edenia.

Not to mention that Outworld had been suffering under Mileena's rule (according to Kotal and his coup).

No. We actually know very little about Mileena's rule. All we know is she ruled for about 17 years before the coup, next to nothing happened of note during said rule, and she was called the "mad emperess." She also did not like Earthrealm but didn't seem to launch new aggression against them. During all her time, Outworld seems no worse off under her than Shao. My own speculation is she simply indulged herself, and Outworld began to stagnate.

Kotal dethroned her out of concern for war with NetherRealm, believing alliance with Earthrealm, or at least a cease of hostilities, was needed to survive. She refused as she didn't trust them. She the ordered his execution (and Reptiles and D'Vorah), a fight ensued, Ermac turned on her and defeated her, and Kotal got the throne.

He then didn't aggravate Earth, but didn't make alliance to defend against the NetherRealm as he said. Several years later, in the comics, he went there seeking aid and Special Forces put him in chains. Seems even after not being aggressive, Mileena wasn't exactly wrong about not trusting them. Another example of Kotal's hubris and bad decision making.

What did Kung Jin do?

What did Liu Kang do? He was unproven, but was chosen to go to the Shaolin Tournament to defeat Goro and Shang. He proved himself there in tournament.

What did Kung Lao do? He was passed over for Liu, and sneeked into the tournament...

Again, people dump on Jin yet give Liu and Lao a pass simply because they're established characters who's accomplishments we already know about.

For Kotal, his downfall is what it usually is: his hubris.

Again, I'm gonna re-read the Kotal portion of the comic and get back to you, but on the overall modern MK narrative, you're right, I don't have jurisdiction over it, thus I'm not campaigning to have it changed. After a decade of movie-story modes, I have grown tired of the format, which is why I want something different. That being said, I can want all I want, it means little to WB/NRS.

That's cool. Again, don't mistake me, I'm not saying the stories are Shakespeare or anything. I see them, as they're structured now, as soap operas for guys. The dialogue basically boils down to "Hey you let's fight." "Them's fighting words." I'm okay with that for what it is, as I look elsewhere for higher quality story telling, other genres. For fighting games though, this is still the best out there and I can have fun with that.

 

[Ptehu]

After more than 30 years as a devoted fan, now in my 40s, I'm seriously not bothered about who has the best combos or how many frames a move has on block.

Amen to that, brother. I'm in my mid-30s and have the same feeling. The lore of MK is so deep and there are so many interesting places to be explored, yet it's all so unused atm.
But as you have rightly admitted - guess we are just in minority right now and unfortunately need to give up on dreaming of our perfect MK game/world.

Also just a word on Kotal. When I first saw him, it was like a love at 1st sight. He was supposed to be the greatest debut in the NRS era. After I saw what they did to him in MKX and then in MK11... well, he is still my fav from modern newcommers, but I think they treated him so bad and unfair. I'd love him to return (as a main roster character and NOT a kameo) but I think it's not gonna happen, sadly.

 

[Rude]

Read my above explanation regarding Kung Jin and Cassie. And I didn't complain about the Cage family getting to much development. My only gripe with them is the amount of focus that was put on them. But whatever, as I said before, I love all the MK characters.


I remember the conversation between Johnny and the Kombat Kids in the beginning. That didn’t explain who Cassie was able to match an amped Elder God. I remember the story bit about Kung Jin being educated in Outworld customs and all that. That doesn’t tell anyone why or how Kung Jin is skilled enough to defeat Kotal Kahn. I also remember Erron walking up to the Kombat Kids after they arrived...just appearing in the story, as how Ferra/Torr did...with a little explanation from Kung Jin about Symbiots. None of that changes anything about what I’ve said.


Again, see above for my power scaling issue. But MANY people have issue with how NRS has been telling their modern stories. I can believe Stryker defeating Kintaro given the right circumstances, that is all well and good. The only question is what are those circumstances.

I really think the issue we are having here, is that I'm actually trying to use my brain to enjoy these stories, where you are more than willing to turn your brain off and, NOT ENJOY the story, but enjoy the flashing lights and jibber jab that comes out of the speakers. It doesn't matter what was said or shown to you. It was just a dumb story that made relative sense and that was all you ever wanted or needed.


I can objectively say that the story telling from the Midway days is better than what we have today. NO DOUBT. There was/still is inconsistencies in those old stories, but there is WAY more stupidity and inconsistency in the modern era.



I was really hoping with MK1 that NRS would get away from the movie/story mode and go back to a Konquest type mode where THEY COULD TAKE THEIR TIME AND TELL A MORE FLESHED OUT STORY, but that isn't what we got. I'm really the type to accept what is given and just move on, which I have, but that doesn't mean what we got was good, let alone equal to or better than what came before.

You wrote a whole bunch of words only for me to tell you that you really need to watch less anime and go outside.

Kung Jin etc are able to defeat the characters they're able to beat in the story because while they're inexperienced, they're still highly trained warriors.

If you can accept that Stryker is one of Raiden's chosen warriors and has the potential to beat Shao Kahn(Stryker has an arcade ending, after all), then you selectively choosing to disbelieve in Cassie is silly.

It's not that one of us is choosing to turn off our brains or whatever, it's that one of us has realistic expectations of what Mortal Kombat - a very silly fighting game where normal humans can punch cyborgs to death - and you have let decades of anime and Cinema Sins tier YouTube media analysis rot your brain into mush.

Touch grass.

 

[YagamiFire]

Yes, but those aren't Mortal Kombat (2011)'s Kitana's and Liu Kang's.

OMFG by the definitions JUST USED, yes they are. They're all splintered in the same exact way an infinite number of times. And it's because NONE of them are actually the 2011's Kitana and Liu Kang. I can't believe people can't follow this stuff.

People need to really separate, "I don't personally like this story/trope" and, "this is objectively bad."

NRS MK has objectively bad stories.

Touch grass.

has thousands of messages on a competitive Mortal Kombat message board. Tells someone else to touch grass

LMAO

The lack of self-awareness is impressive if nothing else.

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

OMFG by the definitions JUST USED, yes they are. They're all splintered in the same exact way an infinite number of times. And it's because NONE of them are actually the 2011's Kitana and Liu Kang. I can't believe people can't follow this stuff.

Not really. They are the versions of Liu Kangs and Kitanas that exist in the other timelines crafted by the other (good) Titans. Same as the MK1 kitana is the version crafted by Titan/FireGod Liu Kang. According to your own argument, the Order of Light Shang Tsung would also be the MK9 Shang Tsung.

 

[YagamiFire]

Not really. They are the versions of Liu Kangs and Kitanas that exist in the other timelines crafted by the other (good) Titans. Same as the MK1 kitana is the version crafted by Titan/FireGod Liu Kang. According to your own argument, the Order of Light Shang Tsung would also be the MK9 Shang Tsung.

Incorrect. Those are all other Titans of time. They are not just other alternate timeline versions of those characters. They're other Titans. Those are all them in Titan outfits.

The thing you need to realize is that Order of Light Shang IS MK9 Shang. The storytelling and the way they have alt timelines makes no sense. The writers do not understand what they are writing/doing.

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

Incorrect. Those are all other Titans of time. They are not just other alternate timeline versions of those characters. They're other Titans. Those are all them in Titan outfits.

The thing you need to realize is that Order of Light Shang IS MK9 Shang. The storytelling and the way they have alt timelines makes no sense. The writers do not understand what they are writing/doing.

But then, why is there also a Titan Order of Darkness Shang (AKA MK11 Shang, AKA the main big bad of MK1) too? There is a particular scene with three evil Mileenas in the same spot - are they all the same MK9 Mileena, then?

Please don't read this as aggressive dismissal, I'm trying to understand your point of view so I can better argue this.

 

[PrinceGoro]

Really dont get people who can defend or talk positively of mk x and mk11 storylines,they collectivelly destroyed the franchines entire narrative.To write yourself in such a corner to the point you had to self reboot even though we basically just freshly rebooted in mk 9 just shows how trash it was.

The hyperfixation on kombat kids,who are the worst characters to ever exist in mk,and the whole special forces circle jerk in mk x was atrocious,the utter garbage that is the ohh my loved one is getting hurt hidden super power activation that defeats shinnok,not once but twice,is the most hilarious and dumb thing ever,he is supposed to be a master manipulator,and he knowingly activates cassies power to get defeated by it again.

And if that wasnt enough here is mk 11 with the worst main villain in the entire franchise,and not only is kronika total garbage,but to top it all off she also happend to influence every single event that ever happened in the mk univers,mk11 tells you that the entire mk univers is basically kronika playing with toys and that anytime anyone says or does anything its all cause of kronika.

these 2 games ruined the entire mk franchise and forced another reboot.Suprisingly enough mk 1 story started of decent(though the way characters act in it feels too super heroesque) but then escalated quicklly into full blown multivers bs.
Whatever happens in the expansion i assume cant be worse the mkx and mk11, and they may have a shot to getting on the right track,the mk1 story,though not exactly good, is already way better then those 2.

 

[chrisisnice]

Why bother caring about power differentials in a fighting game with ensemble cast? It is not a comic and is meant to be fun and simple narritive where anything can happen. Cassie beating Shinnok with some mysterious green power was somewhat fun and much more interesting than Liu beating him yet again.

If you are wanting outcomes to be based on true power rankings only, each game would come down to something like Liu Kang (or whoever you think has the right power differential) beating <insert whatever boss is the big bad> every time. All of the other characters would be just farting around doing some sort of irrelevant shit. That is fine for a comic or an adventure game, but for a fighting game with a cast of characters, it really isnt. That was about the only good thing about MKDA is it stopped that boring arse cycle of Liu Kang wins again!

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

.
The promise of KAMEOS representing 3D era characters was a huge misrepresentation.
Tremor isn’t a 3D era character
Khameleon isn’t a 3D era character, she was a console-specific swap.

tremor is from special forces, a 3D era game
Khameleon was originally 2d as just a random female ninja swap but then got her own identity in mk Armageddon so in a way shes a 3D era.

to add to your list boon said there would be a new character as well where is that

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

.
The promise of KAMEOS representing 3D era characters was a huge misrepresentation.
Tremor isn’t a 3D era character
Khameleon isn’t a 3D era character, she was a console-specific swap.

tremor is from special forces, a 3D era game
Khameleon was originally 2d as just a random female ninja swap but then got her own identity in mk Armageddon so in a way shes a 3D era.

to add to your list boon said there would be a new character as well where is that

 

[PrinceGoro]

Why bother caring about power differentials in a fighting game with ensemble cast? It is not a comic and is meant to be fun and simple narritive where anything can happen. Cassie beating Shinnok with some mysterious green power was somewhat fun and much more interesting than Liu beating him yet again.

If you are wanting outcomes to be based on true power rankings only, each game would come down to something like Liu Kang (or whoever you think has the right power differential) beating <insert whatever boss is the big bad> every time. All of the other characters would be just farting around doing some sort of irrelevant shit. That is fine for a comic or an adventure game, but for a fighting game with a cast of characters, it really isnt. That was about the only good thing about MKDA is it stopped that boring arse cycle of Liu Kang wins again!

I mean there was a million better ways for shinnok to be defeated that dont include kang(whos a revenant at that point anyway)then the way it went down where it was a newby cassie.Yeah it sure sounds nicer when you say mysterious green power,then my loved one is getting hurt so im supercharged by the power of love hihi,really fitting for an mk game like cmon man.And also, though yes powere levels shouldnt be the be all end all but they do and should matter,you cant have just anything happpen,like in dumbass mk 11 where mk9 shao kahn gets bitch slapped and destroyed by mk 9 kitana,no secret poweres or power ups or help,straight up 1 v 1 destroys him,thats wild,wonder why she didnt do it in mk 9 instead of letting herself get chained...



its super bad,and again shinnok himself knows about it,he knows thats how he got defeated in the first place,and you are telling me the master manipulator is going to willingly give them that chance again lol dude.

but also as i said mk11 made sure to tell us that literally every single event that occured in the entire mk univers is specifically done by kronikas will,making it all meaningless so yeah talk about amazing writting.

 

[chrisisnice]

I mean there was a million better ways for shinnok to be defeated that dont include kang(whos a revenant at that point anyway)then the way it went down where it was a newby cassie.Yeah it sure sounds nicer when you say mysterious green power,then my loved one is getting hurt so im supercharged by the power of love hihi,really fitting for an mk game like cmon man.And also, though yes powere levels shouldnt be the be all end all but they do and should matter,you cant have just anything happpen,like in dumbass mk 11 where mk9 shao kahn gets bitch slapped and destroyed by mk 9 kitana,no secret poweres or power ups or help,straight up 1 v 1 destroys him,thats wild,wonder why she didnt do it in mk 9 instead of letting herself get chained...



its super bad,and again shinnok himself knows about it,he knows thats how he got defeated in the first place,and you are telling me the master manipulator is going to willingly give them that chance again lol dude.

but also as i said mk11 made sure to tell us that literally every single event that occured in the entire mk univers is specifically done by kronikas will,making it all meaningless so yeah talk about amazing writting.

My suggestion is stick to the comics. TBH I think the bulk of people couldn't give a shit about power dynamics - they just want a dumb, fun story.

I do not mean this in a disrespectful way, but the narritive you are looking for is alligned with comic books rather than ensemble video games.

 

[Rude]

OMFG by the definitions JUST USED, yes they are. They're all splintered in the same exact way an infinite number of times. And it's because NONE of them are actually the 2011's Kitana and Liu Kang. I can't believe people can't follow this stuff.



NRS MK has objectively bad stories.



has thousands of messages on a competitive Mortal Kombat message board. Tells someone else to touch grass

LMAO

The lack of self-awareness is impressive if nothing else.

Your gesturing at vague hypocrisy is just exposing that you have no arguments.

"You criticize people for posting about Mortal Kombat, yet you post about Mortal Kombat, CURIOUS!"

0 IQ arguments.

 

[YagamiFire]

But then, why is there also a Titan Order of Darkness Shang (AKA MK11 Shang, AKA the main big bad of MK1) too? There is a particular scene with three evil Mileenas in the same spot - are they all the same MK9 Mileena, then?

Please don't read this as aggressive dismissal, I'm trying to understand your point of view so I can better argue this.

That's the thing, it doesn't make a lot of sense. The writing for MK11 and MK1 is really really bad. It's the same as things like Loki or Multiverse of Madness where the people writing this stuff are too dumb to actually understand the ideas they're working with. Even when they introduce rules and concepts they can't keep them straight and immediately break them. It's extremely frustrating because the more you pay attention the less sense it makes.

Somehow the split timeline where we're explicitly told the variance point is who wins MK11 retroactively changes characters backstories and personalities as well. How? Why? No clue. I suspect the writer has no idea either outside of "Wouldn't this be cool?!?" and vomiting a bunch of sub-par character designs and "OMG what if X was also Y?!?" level character designs onto the screen.

TLDR: There's no good explanation because the narrative is fundamentally broken in a half dozen places.

EDIT:

Also to expand on some stuff...

They aren't "The same" anything.

They're all alternates from different splintered timelines so inherently they're different people. There's infinite of them (apparently). There was ONE true MK9 Mileena we new. She's dead. She died in MKX. There was ONE Kitana. The undead one. She died. They also had a doppelganger from the past (who is a different separate person). She also died.

 

[Rude]

That's the thing, it doesn't make a lot of sense. The writing for MK11 and MK1 is really really bad. It's the same as things like Loki or Multiverse of Madness where the people writing this stuff are too dumb to actually understand the ideas they're working with. Even when they introduce rules and concepts they can't keep them straight and immediately break them. It's extremely frustrating because the more you pay attention the less sense it makes.

Somehow the split timeline where we're explicitly told the variance point is who wins MK11 retroactively changes characters backstories and personalities as well. How? Why? No clue. I suspect the writer has no idea either outside of "Wouldn't this be cool?!?" and vomiting a bunch of sub-par character designs and "OMG what if X was also Y?!?" level character designs onto the screen.

TLDR: There's no good explanation because the narrative is fundamentally broken in a half dozen places.

Cinema Sins tier media analysis. DING!