The State of Zoning and Overall Strategy in Mortal Kombat 1

[CrimsonShadow]

You aren't wrong, but what you're describing is players finding ways to overcome the changes in their characters, which though admirable, shouldn't even be necessary. Not because nobody should ever be nerfed ever, but rather because characters shouldn't ever be nerfed so hard that their tournament viability should be in question.


And even still, you are talking about just 1 character in 1 game. I listed damn-near a dozen of them in a half-dozen NRS titles that have all gotten hit with the NRS Nerf Bat. Some, like MK11 Johnny Cage, still were able to place high in tournaments due to nothing less than a Top-5 MK11 player in Xombat using his main character. But so many others, like MK11 Sheeva, MK11 Sonya, MK9 Sub-Zero, etc... saw virtually zero high tournament placements again.

Are we to believe that all the players of those characters didn't do enough post-nerf lab work? Or that they all didn't stick with their characters long enough? I would say not.


I would say that perhaps NRS nerfed those characters too drastically. I'm not sure why the possibility of that is seemingly so difficult for you to acknowledge.


Ironically enough, the lack of lab work against many of these characters' opponents online followed with hordes of complaints is what led to many of these nerfs to begin with.

And then - I didn't even mention this - there are non-top-tier characters that somehow wind up getting hit harder in some patches than the top tiers do! MK11 Kitana and Scorpion come to mind in most recent memory, but there are many others, some of whom I named before and some I didn't.



The point of what I'm saying is this: for every character that NRS has historically nerfed in a reasonable way, there are at least two others that have been killed. Therefore, we are more than justified in being paranoid when it comes to NRS's style of character adjustment. Yes, it's possible that NRS will nerf the top characters in a reasonable way - but considering their history, it's more possible that NRS will over-nerf at least one, if not more top character(s).

We have every right to be worried.

The majority of them were in the Injustice 2 era and before.. We’re talking 6-7 years ago at this point. I don’t think there’s any question that NRS’ balancing strategy in recent years has been on the conservative side.

MK11 Sonya wasn't placing pre-nerf, so I think it's hard to say the nerf was responsible for a lack of tournament success.

Also, Kombat was pretty much the only JC putting in work at that level pre-nerf, so it’s not as if we went from tons of cages placing to just the one. The character absolutely needed to be toned down from the point where he was outzoning the zoners.

At EVO 2023 half the top 8 used him at some point (Rewind and both the Chilean bros) so I think it's clear the character was still very viable at that level.

In most cases the character’s viability shouldn’t be in question, but people have knee-jerk reactions to any nerf, and are too quick to declare characters dead. Then other people just start repeating what they’ve heard, and no one actually validates the assumptions.

Baraka is a perfect example. The character has been more successful post-nerf than before it, but 90% of people were happy to declare the character dead and move on. If it wasn’t for players like Tweedy and Tekken Master who were willing to ignore the prevailing opinion and keep labbing, people would still be saying the character sucks now. For a character to actually get nerfed "to the ground" is exceedingly rare in recent years.

 

[M2Dave]

MK11: Sheeva, Sonya, Johnny Cage

Erron Black, Geras, Kitana, and Skarlet (beta) to name some others.

People like Crimson blame the community for knee-jerk reaction, yet NRS has been the epitome of knee-jerk reaction for 12 years and counting.

I will provide a hilarious yet classic example.

Kano is considered bad in MK9 and NRS consequently buffs him. He becomes Guile with faster recovery on knives and a safe up ball, which is essentially a safe flash kick. Two weeks later, everything is "normalized" (and hence Kano along with Sheeva turn into the most worthless characters in MK9) while they eventually add characters like Freddy and Kenshi, who end up with better zoning than Kano ever had or could dream of. LOL.

We’re talking 6-7 years ago at this point. I don’t think there’s any question that NRS’ balancing strategy in recent years has been on the conservative side.

As a result, not only did they create the most boring modern fighting game, the game's grand finals at this year's EVO was a mirror match in spite of their best efforts to regulate and micromanage the game's balance.

Why rinse and repeat something that evidently did not work?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

As a result, not only did they create the most boring modern fighting game, the game's grand finals at this year's EVO was a mirror match in spite of their best efforts to regulate and micromanage the game's balance.

Why rinse and repeat something that evidently did not work?

And that’s exactly what happens when people are screaming not to nerf anything. You’re left with something that has all of the advantages, and none of the downsides, and it dominates the meta.

In MKX, where nearly everything was broken, some characters still came out on top of it all. This is just how fighting games work.

This is why it made sense that they took a hard step immediately in MK1 away from a braindead meta, rather than trying to make all the Kameos braindead. And the current meta of the game is a lot better for it and much more diverse.

 

[Juggs]

And that’s exactly what happens when people are screaming not to nerf anything. You’re left with something that has all of the advantages, and none of the downsides, and it dominates the meta.

In MKX, where nearly everything was broken, some characters still came out on top of it all. This is just how fighting games work.

This is why it made sense that they took a hard step immediately in MK1 away from a braindead meta, rather than trying to make all the Kameos braindead. And the current meta of the game is a lot better for it and much more diverse.

It’s not that we don’t want NRS to nerf anything, we don’t want them to overnerf anything. We want slight nerfs while they buff the characters who need it.

 

[M2Dave]

And that’s exactly what happens when people are screaming not to nerf anything. You’re left with something that has all of the advantages, and none of the downsides, and it dominates the meta.

In MKX, where nearly everything was broken, some characters still came out on top of it all. This is just how fighting games work.

This is why it made sense that they took a hard step immediately in MK1 away from a braindead meta, rather than trying to make all the Kameos braindead. And the current meta of the game is a lot better for it and much more diverse.

MKX had a plethora of nerfs in its last balance patch (i.e., armor, overheads, pressure, etc.), but this discussion is for another day.

I agree with Juggs. I am not at all against nerfs. I believe that Cyrax had to be nerfed to an extent, but he should not have been booted out of the meta.

NRS tends to take the simple and uncreative route as far as nerfs go... 12 years and counting.

 

[Ray'sGoodLiquor]

Cyrax is a kameo, not a character. It's necessary to reign Kameos in because if not, one Kameo can dominate the meta for nearly all characters.

Now that the Kameo was normalized, we're seeing far more Kameo diversity in events. Sub, Sareena, Goro, Kano, Lao, Scorpion, Stryker. I'm not sure why anyone would want to return to a meta where there's only one Kameo that matters with very little counterplay.

All the kameos that are good now were as good before the cyrax nerfs. It's not their fault that the vast majority of players weren't being original and just copied each other. Nerfing cyrax didn't even stop the playstyle they were trying to curtail. All it did was fuck over a few low-mid tier characters that couldn't perform nearly as well without him.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

All the kameos that are good now were as good before the cyrax nerfs. It's not their fault that the vast majority of players weren't being original and just copied each other. Nerfing cyrax didn't even stop the playstyle they were trying to curtail. All it did was fuck over a few low-mid tier characters that couldn't perform nearly as well without him.

It's not really about originality for competitive players. It was more about the fact that there was no need to use anything else when you could autopilot into Cyrax helicopter with absolutely zero counterplay to cover every situation. When there are no downsides to a pick and only upsides, that's what people are going to pick.

Now people are picking based on synergies instead, which is much healthier for the long-term competitive meta of the game.

It’s not that we don’t want NRS to nerf anything, we don’t want them to overnerf anything. We want slight nerfs while they buff the characters who need it.

And that's clearly the plan, which is why Raiden, Baraka, and Johnny who were all nerfed are still very good characters. They all received slight nerfs, and other characters are likely to receive buffs as the game progresses.

 

[Ray'sGoodLiquor]

And that’s exactly what happens when people are screaming not to nerf anything. You’re left with something that has all of the advantages, and none of the downsides, and it dominates the meta.

In MKX, where nearly everything was broken, some characters still came out on top of it all. This is just how fighting games work.

This is why it made sense that they took a hard step immediately in MK1 away from a braindead meta, rather than trying to make all the Kameos braindead. And the current meta of the game is a lot better for it and much more diverse.

Are you implying MK11 was a shitty game that nobody wanted to play or watch because it wasn't nerfed enough?

 

[PrinceGoro]

MKX had a plethora of nerfs in its last balance patch (i.e., armor, overheads, pressure, etc.), but this discussion is for another day.

I agree with Juggs. I am not at all against nerfs. I believe that Cyrax had to be nerfed to an extent, but he should not have been booted out of the meta.

NRS tends to take the simple and uncreative route as far as nerfs go... 12 years and counting.

Thats spot on,instead of giving it tought on how to rebalance,they go the uncreative route and gut something so it doesnt exist anymore.

I hope cyrax gets revisited eventually,they really could have done so many things to adress it,from reducing the amount of hits from ground chopper on block so that way you cant throw out super unsfe shit and still be very plus,this could possibly lead to having to alter the timing off kameo call so now potential armor gaps open up,they could have also reduced the chip it does heavily,so its not a one size fit all kameo move.

Though personally the way i would change it would be making it so that you can only use the grounded chopper at full kameo bar but it still costs the same,half a bar,and the rest of the move is identical as to how it was pre patch,maybe a bit less chip,and the slight dmg scaling that they did.

This way you fix the issue of having insane and long constant loop of blockstrings into unsafe special into chopper,but you still have good up time on it,plus the most important part,using the grounded chopper from full kameo bar wouldnt mean that you now cant use any other kameo move and having to wait the full recharge every single time,it allows dynamic use of all his moves keeping it fun while at the same time toning down the spam of ground chopper.Additionally the recharge time from half to full after using the grounded chopper could be adjusted if its still too spammable.

 

[Juggs]

And that's clearly the plan, which is why Raiden, Baraka, and Johnny who were all nerfed are still very good characters. They all received slight nerfs, and other characters are likely to receive buffs as the game progresses.

Which is great, and if they did this consistently throughout the games life I’d have no issues.

But they did overnerf Cyrax. Hopefully that was just a one-off overreaction. And hopefully they buff it to what I suggested.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

Which is great, and if they did this consistently throughout the games life I’d have no issues.

But they did overnerf Cyrax. Hopefully that was just a one-off overreaction. And hopefully they buff it to what I suggested.

Didn't Johnny just get a 50hp reduction? I'm not even sure what could safely nerf Johnny without destroying his gameplan. He's built around the plus frames. You need Kameos he uses it hurts everyone and he just uses another. You take away his + and he is going to be dropped.
Maybe damage?
I'm not saying I want Johnny nerfed, I don't just wondering what they gonna do because I hear they gonna nerf several characters.

 

[M2Dave]

Didn't Johnny just get a 50hp reduction? I'm not even sure what could safely nerf Johnny without destroying his gameplan. He's built around the plus frames. You need Kameos he uses it hurts everyone and he just uses another. You take away his + and he is going to be dropped.
Maybe damage?
I'm not saying I want Johnny nerfed, I don't just wondering what they gonna do because I hear they gonna nerf several characters.

I expect simple and uncreative changes that will eventually tone down the character.

While I would tone down some of his frames such as perhaps reducing 1,1 from +3 on block to +1 and f+3 from 9 to 11 frames of startup, I would significantly buff star power, including the manner in which the mode can be attained and used. Decrease requirements to build star power and allow Cage players to go savage on offense (a la pre-patch MKX). For example, revert f+3 to 9F and make the move +1 on block. I am aware that some people would whine, but this version of Cage would be infinitely more interesting to play and watch.

 

[Juggs]

I expect simple and uncreative changes that will eventually tone down the character.

While I would tone down some of his frames such as perhaps reducing 1,1 from +3 on block to +1 and f+3 from 9 to 11 frames of startup, I would significantly buff star power, including the manner in which the mode can be attained and used. Decrease requirements to build star power and allow Cage players to go savage on offense (a la pre-patch MKX). For example, revert f+3 to 9F and make the move +1 on block. I am aware that some people would whine, but this version of Cage would be infinitely more interesting to play and watch.

I actually agree to an extent. But I think he should be treated a bit more like Kenshi. Where he is just “good” while he doesn’t have star power, but “great” when it’s activated. This would mean nerfing a lot of his frame data, but as you said, making it easier to build star meter and also making it last a bit longer. Because right now, Johnny Cage is by far the most boring character to play against and watch. Like, more boring than watching Aquaman or Alien imo.

 

[mrapchem]

The majority of them were in the Injustice 2 era and before.. We’re talking 6-7 years ago at this point. I don’t think there’s any question that NRS’ balancing strategy in recent years has been on the conservative side.

MK11 Sonya wasn't placing pre-nerf, so I think it's hard to say the nerf was responsible for a lack of tournament success.

Also, Kombat was pretty much the only JC putting in work at that level pre-nerf, so it’s not as if we went from tons of cages placing to just the one. The character absolutely needed to be toned down from the point where he was outzoning the zoners.

At EVO 2023 half the top 8 used him at some point (Rewind and both the Chilean bros) so I think it's clear the character was still very viable at that level.

In most cases the character’s viability shouldn’t be in question, but people have knee-jerk reactions to any nerf, and are too quick to declare characters dead. Then other people just start repeating what they’ve heard, and no one actually validates the assumptions.

Baraka is a perfect example. The character has been more successful post-nerf than before it, but 90% of people were happy to declare the character dead and move on. If it wasn’t for players like Tweedy and Tekken Master who were willing to ignore the prevailing opinion and keep labbing, people would still be saying the character sucks now. For a character to actually get nerfed "to the ground" is exceedingly rare in recent years.

That's not exclusively true. Sheeva just got killed in the game right before this one about 2 years ago. Sonya was never allowed to live and got nothing but nerfs throughout the game's life when she really needed buffs to her normals and variation moves. Not to mention, MK11 Skarlet, Kitana and Erron Black all got hit with the nerf bat either during the Beta or during MK11's lifecycle and were never solo-viable in tournament again. Every now and again, someone like Foxy would pick Kitana and beat people in sets with her, but he got far more results with Robocop and Sub-Zero than with Kitana, which is not a shock considering that Robo and Sub never got nerfed and Kitana did.


In MK1, Sub-Zero got drastically nerfed from the MK1 Beta to now - likely because of copious amounts of complaints against him. This is not some ancient bad habit that NRS had but stopped doing recently. NRS has, and still does, have the habit of over-nerfing many of their characters. Nobody is saying that they do this to every character because they don't; as a matter of fact, sometimes some of them fly completely under the radar. But they definitely still over-nerf characters like MK1 Sub-Zero and Cyrax Kameo. So, we have every reason to be afraid for the game's best characters before each patch because they might join the ranks of characters that I named prior.



As far as MK11 Johnny is concerned, after his final nerf, nobody was solo-maining that character and winning tournaments with him - they used him in particular matches and did the majority of their tourney work with top-tier characters. And let's not forget why as you said, "The character absolutely needed to be toned down from the point where he was outzoning the zoners".

NRS, instead of fixing MK11 Johnny's actual problems (his blockstrings not working on the entire cast, EX fireball jailing on half of the cast, no mids, virtually no KBs except one, etc...), decided to not only lower the trajectory of his arc Forceball (which was needed), but they decided randomly to make the move 9 frames of startup, which nobody asked for. And they decided to over-buff his Rising Star to the point where it needed to be nerfed.

So, NRS chose to give Johnny a bunch of haphazard buffs that we didn't ask for, ignore most of his issues until the end of the game's life and then punish players that were successful with this newly buffed character by nerfing the main thing that made him cohesive - his plus frames.

Meanwhile, Fujin, Joker and Sub-Zero were untouched, and Cetrion, Geras and Jaqcui got the kinds of nerfs that I and many others are advocating for now - nerfs that keep the character strong, but not broken.



This is what NRS picking winners and losers looks like.

 

[mrapchem]

I actually agree to an extent. But I think he should be treated a bit more like Kenshi. Where he is just “good” while he doesn’t have star power, but “great” when it’s activated. This would mean nerfing a lot of his frame data, but as you said, making it easier to build star meter and also making it last a bit longer. Because right now, Johnny Cage is by far the most boring character to play against and watch. Like, more boring than watching Aquaman or Alien imo.

If NRS had a good track record of nerfing the vast majority of their characters in reasonable ways, I would advocate for this. But given the fact that they just as (or more) often over-nerf characters, I don't trust them to handle him correctly and thus advocate to leave him alone and just buff everyone else.

 

[mrapchem]

Didn't Johnny just get a 50hp reduction? I'm not even sure what could safely nerf Johnny without destroying his gameplan. He's built around the plus frames. You need Kameos he uses it hurts everyone and he just uses another. You take away his + and he is going to be dropped.
Maybe damage?
I'm not saying I want Johnny nerfed, I don't just wondering what they gonna do because I hear they gonna nerf several characters.

I'll say to you what I said to Juggs - you are right, Johnny is built around his plus frames. If those are killed, the character falls down the tier list drastically. If NRS could be trusted to consistently adjust characters in reasonable ways, I would be in favor of them changing how Johnny works. But since, they kill characters too much, I'd rather them leave Johnny alone and buff the lower tiers.

Sub-Zero alone already gives him trouble - if Sub-Zero got the buffs he needs, he would probably win the Johnny matchup or at least make it 5/5.

 

[mrapchem]

Erron Black, Geras, Kitana, and Skarlet (beta) to name some others.

People like Crimson blame the community for knee-jerk reaction, yet NRS has been the epitome of knee-jerk reaction for 12 years and counting.

I will provide a hilarious yet classic example.

Kano is considered bad in MK9 and NRS consequently buffs him. He becomes Guile with faster recovery on knives and a safe up ball, which is essentially a safe flash kick. Two weeks later, everything is "normalized" (and hence Kano along with Sheeva turn into the most worthless characters in MK9) while they eventually add characters like Freddy and Kenshi, who end up with better zoning than Kano ever had or could dream of. LOL.



As a result, not only did they create the most boring modern fighting game, the game's grand finals at this year's EVO was a mirror match in spite of their best efforts to regulate and micromanage the game's balance.

Why rinse and repeat something that evidently did not work?

Exactly my point - Kano got the MK11 Johnny treatment, except much worse. Sub-Zero and Ermac got their broken stuff nerfed away and basically became unviable as a result, meanwhile Smoke, Cyrax, Kung Lao and so many others were untouched.

While it is true that this community does indeed enjoy some kneejerky, so too does NRS.

 

[Law Hero]

I'll say to you what I said to Juggs - you are right, Johnny is built around his plus frames. If those are killed, the character falls down the tier list drastically. If NRS could be trusted to consistently adjust characters in reasonable ways, I would be in favor of them changing how Johnny works. But since, they kill characters too much, I'd rather them leave Johnny alone and buff the lower tiers.

Sub-Zero alone already gives him trouble - if Sub-Zero got the buffs he needs, he would probably win the Johnny matchup or at least make it 5/5.

I'm pretty sure others have mentioned this before, but I feel like Johnny and Ashrah suffer from the same issue which is that they are top tier characters with a gimmick that rarely gets used. So they're in this weird spot where I want them to get changed so there can be more incentive to get Star Power for Johnny and to consistently stance switch for Ashrah.

Now, I could be wrong, but the impression I got with Johnny was that he was supposed to be a frame monster; however, you were incentivized to play him much more riskily because of the huge benefits of his Star Power ability. Similarly, I feel like Ashrah was designed to encourage you to do less damage in Dark Stance in order to build up stacks for a big payoff in Light Stance later in the match.

The bottom line is that I think these two characters in particular are really out of wack because they are really strong, not because of their gimmicks, but in spite of them. For characters like JC and Ashrah, I think they need pretty big changes across the board in order to get them into a spot where tweaking things like frames can be beneficial. Also, this isn't to say that Star Power and Dark Stance are useless or anything, but I think that any changes to these characters really needs to encourage the use of these tools more.

 

[M2Dave]

Is Quan Chi going to bring zoning back?

 

[Law Hero]

Is Quan Chi going to back zoning back?

Definitely going to be trying out Quan-Chi. Just please give me his MK4 outfit and don't try to make me pay $10 for it.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

like Ashrah was designed to encourage you to do less damage in Dark Stance in order to build up stacks for a big payoff in Light Stance later in the match.

I don't think that's true. Have you seen Dragon vs Young monster(IAmYourAlfa) in Destroyers COTR week 6
Honeybee, Grr, Dragon, Young, Tweedy GetReakedYo where insane good.
But more importantly the Losers Semi Finals was Dragon Ashrah vs YoungMonster Ashrah both using Sareena Kameo but they both played her in different stances.
Dragon used Light stance and Young used Dark stance and both did crazy damage without having to constantly switch.
Apparently there's high damage routes in both stances and they are played completely different but Ashrah is mostly a space control neutral character baiting wiffs and forcing you to press on their turn.

 

[Ray'sGoodLiquor]

Is Quan Chi going to bring zoning back?

No, but it looks like Khameleon will be bringing in more anti-zoning options with Jade's flash. It looks like it's an ambush, too.

 

[M2Dave]

No, but it looks like Khameleon will be bringing in more anti-zoning options with Jade's flash. It looks like it's an ambush, too.

I saw. LOL.

First Omni-Man and now Khameleon with Jade's purple glow... just to make absolutely sure that even their kindergarten fanbase can ignore projectiles.

Or perhaps it is NRS's way of nerfing low hat?

Keep adding anti-projectile scrubbery until low hat gets booted out of the meta. LOL.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Honestly Scorpion does all of that plus gives him an overhead, a full screen reset with invulnerability and gives him far more damage. The Cyrax throw combos only gives him like 13-18% assuming you can time it right and it's hard and inconsistent to say the least, not including the 2BAR Cyrax F Throw which is definitely good but costly for Reptile usually a threat end of match. I'm talking about Sonics "Tech" today I've seen private sets that had Sonic explaining what's "Broke" I don't agree as of yet:

Nothing Sonic did here is revolutionary or broken, it's standard hit/throw mix that every character has, and many characters get throw combos. Yes he is more plus off of F32xxInvus into CyraxCopter and that's definitely good but you get 40%+ off of Scorpion and you can combo off many of Reptiles strings that you can't with Rax.

Cossner, Honeybee, And other Reptile mains all say they don't use Cyrax after patch because the things that made him different are not nerfed with a 24Second freeze on Regen making you not able to Forward Throw, use any Kameo move, not be able to Kombo Breaker or meat shield.
If the throw combos where consistently 20% I'd agree that's something but it's just a more restricted, harder version of other Kameos.
Sonic didn't show anything that the pro Reptile mains didn't know with Cyrax.
I'm genuinely hoping Sonic discovered and shows new Reptile tech that changes the meta of Reptile. If he can do a consistent Cyrax Bomb setup off throw and still combo after I will absolutely pick up Cyrax with Reptile
I have experimented with bomb setups using Reptile and he can do Spit and avoid blast but has so much recovery you can't follow up with anything worthwhile.
I did have a glitch where back throw forced bomb launch and Reptile for whatever reason didn't take the bomb and got combo off it. But I can't replicate it with any timing or far throw distance.
Net combo is practically impossible. I've heard you can do max range B3 into Forward fast Forceball into Net and actually recover in time to catch them but it must be a 1-2 f link with crazy hitstun/recovery. Can't get that consistently and Cossner and Honeybee say the same.

If you are aware of any crazy tech for Reptile, please disclose because I am a long time fan of both Reptile and Cyrax but I hated the patch to Cyrax Forward Kopter Chopper. It would of been fine if they buffed bomb or net to make it more usable but up Cyrax is pretty wild with its timing on certain moves and requires a 4f timing to make it consistent in corner and forget about midscreen. Is it sending them left or right, you never know and I may be bad but I can't get 2 frame links consistently.

Honeybee is still saying he doesn't agree with Sonic on Cyrax or Reptile being stupid broke.
But I'm willing to be convinced with new tech that Sonic promised but still hasn't released for Reptile. If it was any other character Sonic would have dropped strong tech within 5 days.

The thing is there isn’t anything Cyrax provides to Reptile that ONLY Cyrax can provide. I think the actual top Reptile players being confused as to why Sonic is saying Cyrax is “200% Reptile’s best Kameo”, even after watching his most recent sets using the team should show you that maybe Sonic got it wrong this time. Which believe it or not that can and does happen from time to time, lol. This of course doesn’t mean Cyrax is a “bad” choice for Reptile, there just hasn’t been enough evidence to prove that he’s “200%” Reptile’s best Kameo.

So, your argument in favor of Honeybee being wrong about this pairing is that Reptile gets 22% throw combos instead of 13%?

Let's list, according to your previous post, what Cyrax brings to the table:

- Cyrax gives him an easy option for setups into invisibility

Scorpion does the exact same thing, but you get more damage while doing so. Sub-zero and Frost also do the same.

full combo off throw
A tricky one to pull off, and for 22%, but again, something Scorpion can do as well.

combo off slide
It adds very little damage at the end of it, so its usefulness is debatable.

plus some additional pressure on block for certain situations.
It will cost a full bar of meter and not regen for another 20 seconds. Not that the other previously mentioned stuff is anything great, though. Again, Stryker (and to some extent, Goro) do the same thing for much less resources.

Now, to Scorpion:
Allows him to combo midscreen from his tail swipe into easy 30%+
Adds overhead to any string - an experienced player will see it coming if you keep throwing it willy-nilly though, but it is a mix option. Add that to the threat of now comboing from tail swipe and it becomes a legit 50/50. Nevermijd a 50/50 you can do while invisible.
Invisibility setups that grant lots of damage.
Armored retreat to fullscreen.

And Stryker:
Everything you do is now safe, so no gaps are getting exploited or flawless blocks to your ex dashes.
You have two mixes which are plus on block for half a bar.
People cant jump at you and their wakeups are stuff if you have grenades available. Conversely, you can jump at will.


I don't know about your friend, but I'm pretty sure neither he nor anyone so far is scoring any top 8s with Reptile/Cyrax. At least not in R1ps arena, the Kolosseum and Destroyer's tournaments.

And to address your final point: again, the fact that Sonic made cyrax work with Reptile is simply a testment of his skill, not the kameo being a particularly good choice for Reptile. He would probably fare much better, for reasons I stated extensively in this post, with Scorpion or Stryker. Hell, I have little doubt he would make Darrius look good with Reptile - this doesn't mean Darrius is a good match, it is a merit of the player. It also doesn't mean Darrius is useless - something I never said Cyrax to be, so this is a strawman - as there is no such thing as a useless kameo in this game, just some that are much better paired with certain base characters than others, that is my entire argument here.

So Honeybee has officially switched over to Cyrax with Reptile, and I don't believe he's the only one. I'm seeing more and more discussion of Reptile with Cyrax on Twitter as well, and people mining for additional tech, so I believe this is legit.

 

[Juggs]

So Honeybee has officially switched over to Cyrax with Reptile, and I don't believe he's the only one. I'm seeing more and more discussion of Reptile with Cyrax on Twitter as well, and people mining for additional tech, so I believe this is legit.

Nice, I believe I saw HoneyBee using Rax recently but didn’t know if he had officially switched over. Like I said in the post you quoted, at the time I hadn’t seen enough evidence to support SF’s statement that Cyrax is “200% Reptile’s best Kameo”. And tbf, I still haven’t, but that’s because I haven’t been watching anyone who uses the team recently. But if HoneyBee and others are starting to use him, maybe SF was right, guess we’ll see!