The State of Zoning and Overall Strategy in Mortal Kombat 1

[ReD WolF]

The ONLY thing I can see being actually relevant that Lao can give to Shang that no other kameo can is low defense against slides since you can hold hat to guard your legs while you full screen zone

That seems like a pretty big deal though given his playstyle, no? I don't play the character or claim to know more than people who do, it just seems like that fills a pretty big hole in his gameplay.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Hm, last month? LOL.

Cyrax was nerfed from the best kameo in the game to bottom 5, which arguably affected one third of the roster, some significantly more than others (i.e., Rain without Cyrax vs. Raiden without Cyrax).

For this reason, NRS has probably not nerfed Kung Lao yet. They might have actually realized that if they nerfed Kung Lao, they would nerf half the roster and consequently perform one of the biggest tier shifts in fighting game history.

Could you imagine how much characters like Ashrah, Kenshi, and Raiden would benefit from Kung Lao nerfs because he is not their best kameo while those characters who vehemently depend on him would suffer (i.e., Geras, Liu Kang, Mileena, Sindel, Shang Tsung, etc.) ?

The future balance of this game will be very entertaining to observe as NRS keeps "low shotting" (Injustice 1 pun intended!) themselves in the foot.

Cyrax is a kameo, not a character. It's necessary to reign Kameos in because if not, one Kameo can dominate the meta for nearly all characters.

Now that the Kameo was normalized, we're seeing far more Kameo diversity in events. Sub, Sareena, Goro, Kano, Lao, Scorpion, Stryker. I'm not sure why anyone would want to return to a meta where there's only one Kameo that matters with very little counterplay.

 

[CipherJ]

I think stryker and scorpion are extremely sub par design wise. They are 99% used for grenades and hellfire respectively. Scorpions overhead isn't "real" offline so it's just a combo extender, and I can't recall the last time I saw someone use spear (hopefully that's because I haven't had a ton of time to watch footage lately and it's upticked, but i doubt it).

They NEED to change how the kameo bar works. The huge issue is that the worst cooldown is the one taking effect.

For goro/lao you might use toss/spin respectively as a way to get more combo damage, but you don't because of how kameo cd works. If i've used goro's up punch, and then use toss, i'm still in up punch cooldown penalty, so i might as well ONLY use up punch.

Lao is the inverse. If i use spin i'm in spin cd, and now I can't hat nearly as much until the bar completely refills.

There needs to be some way to mitigate this. Maybe reward players for hitting the opponent by lowering cd or some other way to interact with it, because right now it just automatically limits the hell out of your real options.

Honestly, if they CAN'T make frost useful with just summons, thats a huge sign they aren't handling their system right. I think it's perfectly fine to have a kameo who's thing is "all summons" but dear god do her moves need to be better to justify that.

Agree with your point. Kameo recharge is flawed. They need to fix kameo recharge—a kameo move should recover its portion of meter at its recharge speed then any other spent portion recharges at its speed.
Example Lao:
K-meter at 100%
-uses hat k-meter at 50%
-meter recharges to 75%
-uses spin—meter at 25%. Now meter from 25-75% recharges at spin portion.
-but at 50% uses hat. Meter recharges from 0-50% at hat recharge speed. Once it hits 50% it will recharge at “spin” recharge rate up to 75% and then hat recharge rate from 75%-100%.

This would be a universal buff to kameos. It would take a little bit of thought to implement, but really not that hard to come up with the proper formulas.

Right now as it is Lao kameo users dont want to use their spin because it can cause their hat usage to be hindered. I think if my kameo buff were to be implemented I would want a Lao hat recharge increase between 2-3 seconds.

 

[Juggs]

Cyrax is a kameo, not a character. It's necessary to reign Kameos in because if not, one Kameo can dominate the meta for nearly all characters.

Now that the Kameo was normalized, we're seeing far more Kameo diversity in events. Sub, Sareena, Goro, Kano, Lao, Scorpion, Stryker. I'm not sure why anyone would want to return to a meta where there's only one Kameo that matters with very little counterplay.

You never want to nerf a character so harshly that they go from being used a ton to hardly at all. That’s the exact opposite of how balancing should be handled. You don’t have to gut a character in order to accomplish the goal of balance. And in MK1, Kameo’s are absolutely equal to characters. Gutting a Kameo that has very good synergy with certain characters and may be the only reason that character is performing well is the same thing as gutting that character. People still aren’t understanding how important Kameos are and that you can’t just divorce them from the characters.

The ends don’t justify the means just because gutting Cyrax resulted in more Kameos being used. Again, they could’ve accomplished the same goal by slightly nerfing Cyrax. Aka as I’ve said before, making horizontal kopter chopper cost 75% Kameo meter instead of 100%. This would allow you to use it, then only have to wait for a 50% recharge before using it again, so effectively being able to use it twice within the same time frame like pre-nerf. But after that 2nd use, now you have to wait for it to recharge by 75%. That would’ve been the perfect way to nerf it without gutting it imo.

 

[Juggs]

Sareena is more than fine as is. She doesn’t need to be touched imo.

I think stryker and scorpion are extremely sub par design wise. They are 99% used for grenades and hellfire respectively. Scorpions overhead isn't "real" offline so it's just a combo extender, and I can't recall the last time I saw someone use spear (hopefully that's because I haven't had a ton of time to watch footage lately and it's upticked, but i doubt it).

They NEED to change how the kameo bar works. The huge issue is that the worst cooldown is the one taking effect.

For goro/lao you might use toss/spin respectively as a way to get more combo damage, but you don't because of how kameo cd works. If i've used goro's up punch, and then use toss, i'm still in up punch cooldown penalty, so i might as well ONLY use up punch.

Lao is the inverse. If i use spin i'm in spin cd, and now I can't hat nearly as much until the bar completely refills.

There needs to be some way to mitigate this. Maybe reward players for hitting the opponent by lowering cd or some other way to interact with it, because right now it just automatically limits the hell out of your real options.

Honestly, if they CAN'T make frost useful with just summons, thats a huge sign they aren't handling their system right. I think it's perfectly fine to have a kameo who's thing is "all summons" but dear god do her moves need to be better to justify that.

Kameo Scorpion’s overhead definitely isn’t used as a combo extender at all, it absolutely can be and is used as a mixup as intended and IS “real”. I do feel it should be a few frames faster though. His get back spear move I also believe should definitely be faster, 100%.

Stryker is a great Kameo. Yeah most people using him are only using his bombs, but his other moves have their uses, it’s just people aren’t really utilizing them yet. I’ve been experimenting with his handcuff move and it’s actually a pretty good combo ender for Scorpion. Haven’t messed around too much with his OH & low baton hits, but I heard they were at least safe on block I believe?

 

[rifraf]

Now that the Kameo was normalized

Normalizing characters and kameos is the worst case scenario for a game like MK1. Why? You may ask? Because, this is a game where everything has some dirt by design. Take that out aka. normalize it, you got a dead character/kameo.

The correct way to deal with stuff like Cyrax is either to normalize the problematic move AND introduce some dirt elsewhere. Or, redesign/repurpose the character.

Normalizing anything in this game means graveyard. Proof is Cyrax.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

I’ve been experimenting with his handcuff move and it’s actually a pretty good combo ender for Scorpion. Haven’t messed around too much with his OH & low baton hits, but I heard they were at least safe on block I believe?

The arrest move is really good for chars with legit 50/50's I guess hit throw mix works but I feel Scorpion doesn't get as much from it as others.
But that move is absolutely under used and his +6ob overhead is crazy good for many characters lacking mix especially if they have armor breakin moves/setups.
I mean Stryker arrest removes wakeup options and frametraps mix, don't understand why no one is utilizing it.

 

[kevkopdx]

My issue is it hitting on return AFTER hitting her. If they wanted, they can keep the return but make the scythes travel longer so you have more of a window to punish before the return then have them be destroyed if you hit her before they make a return trip.

While it can deal with breaks, most of the cast can use 1 bar+kameo to safely leave unless your character has a way to armor break. I dont care about Sareena's drain because I can almost always guarantee a way out but it could just be due to bad players.

this happens with other kameos too though… you can be hit by Stryker grenades or Kano knives after hitting your opponent… I dunno, I think sareena is fine, she’s not even used that much anymore

 

[M2Dave]

That seems like a pretty big deal though given his playstyle, no? I don't play the character or claim to know more than people who do, it just seems like that fills a pretty big hole in his gameplay.

Precisely, but specific match ups aside, low hat gives Shang, particularly young Shang, more variability to his zoning game because straight skulls become substantially more difficult to flawless block.

Shang really wants to play a game similar to Liu Kang and Sindel, but the issue is that his offense, and arguably his zoning as well, are not as good as theirs, even with low hat.

Cyrax is a kameo, not a character. It's necessary to reign Kameos in because if not, one Kameo can dominate the meta for nearly all characters.

Your premise makes no sense on multiple levels.

First of all, kameos play an integral part of every character's toolkit. Buffing or nerfing them affects every character in the game.

Second of all, nobody supports "one kameo fits all", but nobody also supports "one kameo fits none". The point is that Cyrax should not have gone from top 1 to bottom 5, which is abysmal (yet unfortunately traditional) NRS balancing.

Third of all, Kung Lao was virtually used as much as Cyrax pre-patch. Please see ECT results. So, why did Cyrax get slapped across the face while Kung Lao remained unscathed?

To make matters worse, NRS developers are like the introverted kid in school. You never know what they are thinking because they never communicate. There could be a balance patch next week or six weeks from now. What is subject to change? Take a guess. Play the lottery. Because who knows.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Precisely, but specific match ups aside, low hat gives Shang, particularly young Shang, more variability to his zoning game because straight skulls become substantially more difficult to flawless block.

Shang really wants to play a game similar to Liu Kang and Sindel, but the issue is that his offense, and arguably his zoning as well, are not as good as theirs, even with low hat.



Your premise makes no sense on multiple levels.

First of all, kameos play an integral part of every character's toolkit. Buffing or nerfing them affects every character in the game.

Second of all, nobody supports "one kameo fits all", but nobody also supports "one kameo fits none". The point is that Cyrax should not have gone from top 1 to bottom 5, which is abysmal (yet unfortunately traditional) NRS balancing.

Third of all, Kung Lao was virtually used as much as Cyrax pre-patch. Please see ECT results. So, why did Cyrax get slapped across the face while Kung Lao remained unscathed?

To make matters worse, NRS developers are like the introverted kid in school. You never know what they are thinking because they never communicate. There could be a balance patch next week or six weeks from now. What is subject to change? Take a guess. Play the lottery. Because who knows.

Again, the actual characters are all still viable. If you want to talk about kameos, that’s a different discussion, but Cage, Raiden, Baraka are are still viable post-nerf.

And lao hat has actual counterplay, helicopter did not. But again that’s a separate discussion.

 

[SixPathsOfHate]

this happens with other kameos too though… you can be hit by Stryker grenades or Kano knives after hitting your opponent… I dunno, I think sareena is fine, she’s not even used that much anymore

The difference is Sareena's lasts for so long and still allows for a combo. Under certain circumstances, kano/stryker will not allow you to combo.

 

[fr stack]

The arrest move is really good for chars with legit 50/50's I guess hit throw mix works but I feel Scorpion doesn't get as much from it as others.
But that move is absolutely under used and his +6ob overhead is crazy good for many characters lacking mix especially if they have armor breakin moves/setups.
I mean Stryker arrest removes wakeup options and frametraps mix, don't understand why no one is utilizing it.

It whiffs a lot cause of its ass hitbox so ive been mostly trained out of using it

 

[SixPathsOfHate]

That seems like a pretty big deal though given his playstyle, no? I don't play the character or claim to know more than people who do, it just seems like that fills a pretty big hole in his gameplay.

TLDR: Kung Lao makes Shang snowball harder but has a hard time getting it started due to lack of mix and mid frame data. Stryker trades snowball potential for consistent control and small wins.
Consistency>Snowball IMO


Kung Lao just doesnt give Shang enough to compete IMO.

You lose a lot of block string pressure because being +2 with Shang doesnt really mean anything. Your main poke button is D4 because of the pushback and hit advantage but you arent guaranteed a D4 from being +2 so you have to go for a D1 which puts you in a 33/33/33 situation of if they're gonna get press a button/armor/block. You dont want to go for a D1 because if they block or armor your D1 then you lose your turn which can cascade into hell since Kung Lao isnt really good at giving you your turn back. It also has awful pushback so a D1 WILL always punish you. With Stryker's Up assist, you're +6 so even JC's 6f D1 isnt beating your D4. F4121 Up assist also pushes them back a decent bit ONTOP of your D4 pushing them out of D1 range and is +15 on hit so you get a free F4/B4. It also turns your block string into a 50/50 of if they're gonna block/armor since they cant poke out of it. If you eat the armor then you can burn a bar to get your turn back while being safe.

Lao also doesnt help you disengage as well as Stryker. Stryker just covers way more bases than Lao.

Stryker gives you:

1. Gives you an overhead anywhere in your string that gives you a free D4
2. If the neutral assist hits you get a FREE full back dash+half back dash which lets you return to zoning
3. Grenades turn your B4 into an auto footsies tool that's also an armor break setup that can be used to end combos
4. You get a physical assist with Stryker's down assist to deal with Ice Armor "abusers" and Omni-Nerds. It also shits on Poor Motaro reflect.
5. You get a safe wake up option that can also becomes a 15-20% un-armorable chip blockstring sequence that also nets you a 1 bar against most of the cast or force your turn
6. Grenades reinforce your mid screen zoning IMMENSLY since you can do Double/Triple Fireballs to cover the grenade startup then recover in time to do another action. If you're really good, you can on reaction confirm into Ground skull.
7. Another anti-air option that can also reinforces your Bed of Nails anti-air option.

Kung Lao gives you:

1. Better full screen confirms with low hat
2. 1 bar HTB setup
3. More consistent full screen zoning with low hat as reinforcement
4. A teleport combo using triple fireballs from full screen but it is extremely hard to do

Do note that if you land a hit with Shang you can almost always make the combo last long enough to get back at least 1 use of your kameo bars back if you want to spend a bar or 75% if you just do the BnB. Being able to almost always guarantee you have your kameo up for your next sequence takes away some of the strengths of Low hat having a fast regen time. With Shang you will almost ALWAYS have bar because of Grenades forcing opponents to block triple fireballs or long ass blockstrings that you will be doing most of the match.

 

[SixPathsOfHate]

Precisely, but specific match ups aside, low hat gives Shang, particularly young Shang, more variability to his zoning game because straight skulls become substantially more difficult to flawless block.

Shang really wants to play a game similar to Liu Kang and Sindel, but the issue is that his offense, and arguably his zoning as well, are not as good as theirs, even with low hat.

I HEAVILY disagree with Shang having weaker zoning compared to Liu or Sindel. On paper Shang is the strongest zoner in the game and it isnt even close. Fullscreen Fireball wars will always have Shang on top before kameos are even mentioned..

If either are burning a bar to win the zoning war then you already win because neither of those characters can close the distance fast enough for it to matter. Especially when using an assist like stryker to protect approaches if you know you're gonna get knocked down. Not only is Shang's fireball startup faster than Sindels [dont remember LK], it does more damage and offers more hit advantage due to the staggering of the fireballs when talking about double/triple fireballs.

If either of them block ANY of your fireballs from full screen or even neutral duck them and you think they will Meter burn their projectile, you can trade a Far Ground Skull and recover before they do. Lao doesnt do enough to change this, especially if Shang also has Lao, not that he needs him when he has better assists.

As for his close up game, ye it aint great but that's all the more reason why Stryker works so well with him where KL would fail.

 

[LEGEND]

I HEAVILY disagree with Shang having weaker zoning compared to Liu or Sindel. On paper Shang is the strongest zoner in the game and it isnt even close. Fullscreen Fireball wars will always have Shang on top before kameos are even mentioned..

If either are burning a bar to win the zoning war then you already win because neither of those characters can close the distance fast enough for it to matter. Especially when using an assist like stryker to protect approaches if you know you're gonna get knocked down. Not only is Shang's fireball startup faster than Sindels [dont remember LK], it does more damage and offers more hit advantage due to the staggering of the fireballs when talking about double/triple fireballs.

If either of them block ANY of your fireballs from full screen or even neutral duck them and you think they will Meter burn their projectile, you can trade a Far Ground Skull and recover before they do. Lao doesnt do enough to change this, especially if Shang also has Lao, not that he needs him when he has better assists.

As for his close up game, ye it aint great but that's all the more reason why Stryker works so well with him where KL would fail.

From my experience, he's not ever trying to win a full screen fireball war, because if the opp knows the MU, its not likely that Shang will win it. There is a huge space for someone to stand in between mid and far Ground Skull and Shang has to throw double or triple skulls to win trades which are really bad on wiff/block. Also his EX skull that supposed to be a mid can be dodged with a low poke by alot of, if not all of the cast.

You can force people into some guessing games if they are trying to get in after they block a single straight skull. Thats where his zoning gets strong, because they could potentially be eating a full combo for sloppy movement, or an extra couple straight skulls for being too impatient. Other than that he has to take some pretty significant risks

My general assessment of his Kameo use:

Lao is just there to give HTBs. Its ok for zoning but it doesn't solve his problems imo. If you ever fight against someone that knows how to punish his mid string properly and armor through Lao, you'll have a hard time.

Stryker/Kano/Goro are nice for giving him safe chip like Cyrax was doing. Personally, I think this is much stronger than Lao

 

[SixPathsOfHate]

From my experience, he's not ever trying to win a full screen fireball war, because if the opp knows the MU, its not likely that Shang will win it. There is a huge space for someone to stand in between mid and far Ground Skull and Shang has to throw double or triple skulls to win trades which are really bad on wiff/block. Also his EX skull that supposed to be a mid can be dodged with a low poke by alot of, if not all of the cast.

You can force people into some guessing games if they are trying to get in after they block a single straight skull. Thats where his zoning gets strong, because they could potentially be eating a full combo for sloppy movement, or an extra couple straight skulls for being too impatient. Other than that he has to take some pretty significant risks

My general assessment of his Kameo use:

Lao is just there to give HTBs. Its ok for zoning but it doesn't solve his problems imo. If you ever fight against someone that knows how to punish his mid string properly and armor through Lao, you'll have a hard time.

Stryker/Kano/Goro are nice for giving him safe chip like Cyrax was doing. Personally, I think this is much stronger than Lao

That's why I Stryker does such a good job with Shang. He significant reduces his riskier plays or at least turns them into trades. I do agree that if someone is aware of the matchup, Shang has to try extra hard to open them up but if you dont have a way to skip neutral and get in then he can effectively keep you out for most of the game and when you do get in, you still have to worry about his safe armor.

 

[mrapchem]

When was the last time this actually happened, though? Jacqui and Cetrion were handled in an extremely conservative way. Raiden, Johnny and Baraka in MK1 were all changed in a way that kept them competitively viable. For as much as I hear about characters being nerfed ‘to the ground’, very few actually are.

And as much as people keep saying “It’s just Tekken Master”, it was actually Tweedy that was successful with Baraka/Stryker long before UFA.

There have been a list of characters that NRS has nerfed out of tournament viability or worse:

MK1: Sub-Zero, Cyrax (yes he's a Kameo, but Kameos = characters in this game)
MK11: Sheeva, Sonya, Johnny Cage
INJ2: Aquaman, Deadshot, and probably more but I didn't play enough of the game to know
MKX: Alien, Johnny Cage(Fisticuffs), Tempest Lao, Tanya, Erron Black, Bojutsu Kung Jin, Triborg(Cyrax and Cyber-Sub)
INJ1: Scorpion and probably more but I didn't play enough of the game to know
MK9: Kano, Ermac, Sub-Zero(killed his reset while letting Smoke and Cyrax keep theirs)

And I'm likely forgetting some others, but the point is clear. You are correct to note that NRS has often adjusted characters in a fair manner. But at least just as often, if not more so, NRS has turned characters from heroes to zeroes, either killing their tournament viability or making them much worse versions of themselves without fixing their core issues.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

There have been a list of characters that NRS has nerfed out of tournament viability or worse:

MK1: Sub-Zero, Cyrax (yes he's a Kameo, but Kameos = characters in this game)
MK11: Sheeva, Sonya, Johnny Cage
INJ2: Aquaman, Deadshot, and probably more but I didn't play enough of the game to know
MKX: Alien, Johnny Cage(Fisticuffs), Tempest Lao, Tanya, Erron Black, Bojutsu Kung Jin, Triborg(Cyrax and Cyber-Sub)
INJ1: Scorpion and probably more but I didn't play enough of the game to know
MK9: Kano, Ermac, Sub-Zero(killed his reset while letting Smoke and Cyrax keep theirs)

And I'm likely forgetting some others, but the point is clear. You are correct to note that NRS has often adjusted characters in a fair manner. But at least just as often, if not more so, NRS has turned characters from heroes to zeroes, either killing their tournament viability or making them much worse versions of themselves without fixing their core issues.

If the examples from MK1 are the beta version of a character (which are typically different from launch) and a Kameo, I just don’t think that’s very strong.

Kombat (Xombat) showed that cage was still viable by getting 5th at a stacked EVO 2023. It’s another example of people prematurely writing characters off, while the best players hit the lab.

So we’re really just talking about a couple of actual post-release characters in 6-7 years.

 

[mrapchem]

If the examples from MK1 are the beta version of a character (which are typically different from launch) and a Kameo, I just don’t think that’s very strong.

Kombat (Xombat) showed that cage was still viable by getting 5th at a stacked EVO 2023. It’s another example of people prematurely writing characters off, while the best players hit the lab.

So we’re really just talking about a couple of actual post-release characters in 6-7 years.

Kombat doing well in a tournament not only isn't news, it also doesn't indicate that a character is still top-tier. Cage was Kombat's main and he was beating Sonicfox with him before characters got 3rd variations in MK11. So, Kombat winning with the character that brought him to the dance is much like Tom Brady beating Kabals and Kitanas with Sub-Zero in MK9 - a superb player using their most comfortable character regardless of how close/far they are from S+ Tier.

Also, look at the drop in tournament placements that Johnny had after his plus frames were nerfed in MK11 compared to after the addition of 3rd variations. I don't think you would or could argue that somehow Johnny Cage was unaffected by his nerfs - he was dramatically reduced in power.


You might waive off the litany of character nerfs as quote 'a couple of actual post-release characters every 6-7 years', but the reality is that this happens in literally every single game in 2 to 3-year spans. This means that players can count on NRS nerfing at least 2 or more formerly powerful characters into the ground and numerous other characters to not even be worth using except for character loyalists. And players will experience this every 2-3 years.

This leaves a very bad taste in peoples' mouths and contributes to people from other FG scenes either not entering into the MK scene, or taking the plunge, finding a character that they like, only to depart after their character gets butchered. Sajam detailed this exact phenomenon happening to him in MKX.



By contrast, as you correctly noted, NRS will leave other top-tier characters either completely alone or slightly tweak them in such a way that they are still top-tier but not as oppressive - or at least oppressive in a different manner.

This also leaves a bitter taste in players' mouths because they are rightfully resentful of their character being gutted while other characters are allowed to skate by. Or at the very least, they are confuzzled by NRS's balancing philosophy and when they correctly point out that NRS appears to pick winners and losers, they get confronted by people like yourself gaslighting people who tell them that NRS doesn't kill characters even as we're all mopping the blood spatter from the floor.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

Kombat doing well in a tournament not only isn't news, it also doesn't indicate that a character is still top-tier. Cage was Kombat's main and he was beating Sonicfox with him before characters got 3rd variations in MK11. So, Kombat winning with the character that brought him to the dance is much like Tom Brady beating Kabals and Kitanas with Sub-Zero in MK9 - a superb player using their most comfortable character regardless of how close/far they are from S+ Tier.

Also, look at the drop in tournament placements that Johnny had after his plus frames were nerfed in MK11 compared to after the addition of 3rd variations. I don't think you would or could argue that somehow Johnny Cage was unaffected by his nerfs - he was dramatically reduced in power.


You might waive off the litany of character nerfs as quote 'a couple of actual post-release characters every 6-7 years', but the reality is that this happens in literally every single game in 2 to 3-year spans. This means that players can count on NRS nerfing at least 2 or more formerly powerful characters into the ground and numerous other characters to not even be worth using except for character loyalists. And players will experience this every 2-3 years.

This leaves a very bad taste in peoples' mouths and contributes to people from other FG scenes either not entering into the MK scene, or taking the plunge, finding a character that they like, only to depart after their character gets butchered. Sajam detailed this exact phenomenon happening to him in MKX.



By contrast, as you correctly noted, NRS will leave other top-tier characters either completely alone or slightly tweak them in such a way that they are still top-tier but not as oppressive - or at least oppressive in a different manner.

This also leaves a bitter taste in players' mouths because they are rightfully resentful of their character being gutted while other characters are allowed to skate by. Or at the very least, they are confuzzled by NRS's balancing philosophy and when they correctly point out that NRS appears to pick winners and losers, they get confronted by people like yourself gaslighting people who tell them that NRS doesn't kill characters even as we're all mopping the blood spatter from the floor.

I'm not directing this to any person, but many are categorically wrong if they think NRS doesn't nerf characters to the ground, or two doesn't pick clear winners and losers in balancing. They have a very long history of doing this.

I hope they don't this time around but the past does worry me if I'm being honest. That Cyrax change highlighted this very fear for me.
They picked winners(Johnny, Kenshi for characters, Kameos Lao, Stryker, Goro) and they picked losers: Baraka, Raiden and obviously Cyrax Kameo.

The overall effect wasn't changed it just stopped one Kameo from being overused, pretty much used at all. While many others skated by and some got clear buffs while many others got ignored (Sub Zero, Scorpion)

Hope they listen to the Top 20 players who are asking for buffs and practically no major nerfs.

 

[mrapchem]

I'm not directing this to any person, but many are categorically wrong if they think NRS doesn't nerf characters to the ground, or two doesn't pick clear winners and losers in balancing. They have a very long history of doing this.

I hope they don't this time around but the past does worry me if I'm being honest. That Cyrax change highlighted this very fear for me.
They picked winners(Johnny, Kenshi for characters, Kameos Lao, Stryker, Goro) and they picked losers: Baraka, Raiden and obviously Cyrax Kameo.

The overall effect wasn't changed it just stopped one Kameo from being overused, pretty much used at all. While many others skated by and some got clear buffs while many others got ignored (Sub Zero, Scorpion)

Hope they listen to the Top 20 players who are asking for buffs and practically no major nerfs.

Yes indeed you are correct. Entirely correct.

 

[skahwt]

Reading through this thread (and some others), the situation with NRS and the competitive scene really reminds me of the relationship between Konami and the competitive Yu-Gi-Oh! scene which I have followed since forever. I remember constantly hearing about just how much Konami hates the competitive YGO scene because it's a very loud portion of the consumer base that's increasingly difficult to please. Konami just wants to print pictures on cardboard with mascot characters for casual fans and fans of the anime, but competitive players have really high standards for balance and meta diversity that actively clashes with their business strategy.

Like, when they come out with a new booster pack, they want everyone to buy the new one so the cards need to be more powerful than those of the current meta to encourage people to buy. If they're weaker than the current cards, no competitive players will buy, and if they're on par with the current meta, then a relatively small percentage will buy since the rest have the option of sticking to their current decks and aren't forced to spend money to keep up with the new cards. So new packs come out with broken cards, the meta is thrown into unbalanced disarray, competitors complain (but still buy new cards), then once sales slow for the new cards, Konami "balances" the meta with new banlists, and the cycle repeats when the next set of new cards come out.

It's like a never ending headache shared between a company that wants to shell out a low-effort product and a group of consumers that has specific needs that require a lot of care and consideration to please. I feel that things are similar here with WB/NRS where they just want to put out a fighting game with an "EPIC CINEMATIC STORY MODE" and tons of mobile-tier monetization modes to maximize profits, but the competitive players throw a wrench into things because none of that matters. Instead, things like balance and diversity in the meta take center stage, and those are things that take a lot of time and effort to get right, and that time and effort spent is not something you can really market or monetize like a new story mode or loot boxes.

Whenever Tom Brady talks about NRS DLC characters being the most overtuned characters in this galaxy and even the Andromeda galaxy, it always makes me think of the situation with YGO cards. Anyway, these are just my feelings. Maybe WB/NRS love the competitive scene, and have a team working around the clock to perfectly balance Kung-Lao's low hat instead of finding out just how many shades of orange the human eye can detect in order to sell them as shaders for Sub-Zero in the rotating shop.

I can see this, they control the narrative but make up far less than 1% off the customer base.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Kombat doing well in a tournament not only isn't news, it also doesn't indicate that a character is still top-tier. Cage was Kombat's main and he was beating Sonicfox with him before characters got 3rd variations in MK11. So, Kombat winning with the character that brought him to the dance is much like Tom Brady beating Kabals and Kitanas with Sub-Zero in MK9 - a superb player using their most comfortable character regardless of how close/far they are from S+ Tier.

Tom wasn't getting Top 8 at EVO, though. The discussion was about whether the character was still tourney-viable, and nobody gets 5th at EVO with a character that isn't.

It usually takes people who stick with characters instead of abandoning them to figure out how good they really are, and we're seeing the same thing with Tweedy right now. The majority of people are too quick to write characters off just because they received any nerf at all. Tweedy hit the lab and it's paying off for him.

 

[mrapchem]

Tom wasn't getting Top 8 at EVO, though. The discussion was about whether the character was still tourney-viable, and nobody gets 5th at EVO with a character that isn't.

It usually takes people who stick with characters instead of abandoning them to figure out how good they really are, and we're seeing the same thing with Tweedy right now. The majority of people are too quick to write characters off just because they received any nerf at all. Tweedy hit the lab and it's paying off for him.

You aren't wrong, but what you're describing is players finding ways to overcome the changes in their characters, which though admirable, shouldn't even be necessary. Not because nobody should ever be nerfed ever, but rather because characters shouldn't ever be nerfed so hard that their tournament viability should be in question.


And even still, you are talking about just 1 character in 1 game. I listed damn-near a dozen of them in a half-dozen NRS titles that have all gotten hit with the NRS Nerf Bat. Some, like MK11 Johnny Cage, still were able to place high in tournaments due to nothing less than a Top-5 MK11 player in Xombat using his main character. But so many others, like MK11 Sheeva, MK11 Sonya, MK9 Sub-Zero, etc... saw virtually zero high tournament placements again.

Are we to believe that all the players of those characters didn't do enough post-nerf lab work? Or that they all didn't stick with their characters long enough? I would say not.


I would say that perhaps NRS nerfed those characters too drastically. I'm not sure why the possibility of that is seemingly so difficult for you to acknowledge.


Ironically enough, the lack of lab work against many of these characters' opponents online followed with hordes of complaints is what led to many of these nerfs to begin with.

And then - I didn't even mention this - there are non-top-tier characters that somehow wind up getting hit harder in some patches than the top tiers do! MK11 Kitana and Scorpion come to mind in most recent memory, but there are many others, some of whom I named before and some I didn't.



The point of what I'm saying is this: for every character that NRS has historically nerfed in a reasonable way, there are at least two others that have been killed. Therefore, we are more than justified in being paranoid when it comes to NRS's style of character adjustment. Yes, it's possible that NRS will nerf the top characters in a reasonable way - but considering their history, it's more possible that NRS will over-nerf at least one, if not more top character(s).

We have every right to be worried.

 

[Eji1700]

If the examples from MK1 are the beta version of a character (which are typically different from launch) and a Kameo, I just don’t think that’s very strong.

Ehhhh no. Are they different? Sometimes. Were they different in this game? Only if you were sub zero