The State of Zoning and Overall Strategy in Mortal Kombat 1

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

As much as people were saying stream chat hates zoners, hardly anyone complained about Foxy, but the chat was taking Johnny Cage apart for a half an hour straight.

Just goes to show that whatever was strong is what gets the criticism. There’s no magic protection for rushdown characters.

I'd argue that who was on stream was a marginal portion of the playerbase and that not many are dumb enough to say "Foxy Has No Skill Zoning" we all know Foxy will lite us all up zoning or not.
But I've seen plenty of hate towards zoning. I don't think we know what the majority actually hates more but I guess it's mostly Casuals who play the game and simply hate anything that beats their gameplan.

But watching Foxy in UFA I'm convinced there are some strong zoning options in MK1 displayed by Foxy using Kitana as a pure zoner/runaway character. The fact he could survive vs top players with timeouts and zoning is a huge statement in my eyes.
These players where absolutely strong players from all over the world. Grr, TekkenMaster, ManiKani, Javier, AKstar and if course Foxy.

Also anyone think we may be wrong about Scorpions viability? Javier made 3rd with Scorpion/Stryker alone which is massively impressive.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

So the thing about Scorpion.. I think Javier played really well. But you could tell that in a handful of his matches he was limited to very few options. D1 spin, ex tele, repeat etc. I think he made the most of it by outplaying people, but I’m not sure it signifies that the character is all that scary.

 

[HiddenSelectCounterPick]

Let's talk about ol boy using Lao vs VGY he was playing ultra lame and was still able to catch a dub. Its not just zoning it's the crutch kameos as well. He was running away the entire set until Goro kameo was charged.

Kinda similar to mk11 meter for free. They should limit how many times you can get kameo usage in a round.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

Let's talk about ol boy using Lao vs VGY he was playing ultra lame and was still able to catch a dub. Its not just zoning it's the crutch kameos as well. He was running away the entire set until Goro kameo was charged.

Kinda similar to mk11 meter for free. They should limit how many times you can get kameo usage in a round.

I honestly think it would make many characters unfun to play if they limited all Kameo usage. Only thing I'd be fine with changing on Lao is adding 3-5seconds for charged hat Regen so it can't be looped into HTB Vortex with several characters.
But I agree with Sonic/Dragons suggestions on Cyrax:
Making him splat with Forward Helicopter on airborne opponents but only costing a Bar with Prepatch regen, keeping the damage nerfs and adding some Regen delay after one use of Forward Helicopter.

I knew people who wanted Cyrax and Lao nerfed wouldn't stop there, they now on Stryker grenades then Goro until everything's neutered and several characters are left without buffs.

Sikander and others asked why they don't buff Sub Zero and NetherRealm replied:
"Because you keep asking"

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1728813609042719178

I don't think NRS cares about game balance.
That's after I asked for a visit on Omni-Man having jailing highs while several struggling characters have very unsafe mid to highs, Stephanie Brownback replied: "I don't care I'm not a competitive player anymore"
Make me worry about future game balance and many lower tier loyalists struggling for the entire games life

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

Quite a subjective topic. I personally found it extremely frustrating, disappointing and lame to watch! Really dislike that style of play - MKX Lao Foxy is the Foxy I want to see. Not this….

Youre trolling bro, every other match was blockstring/throw and you disliked seeing one match played with range variety?

 

[Shawi]

Youre trolling bro, every other match was blockstring/throw and you disliked seeing one match played with range variety?

yep , like I said, a subjective topic - I just can't stand that style of play.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

yep , like I said, a subjective topic - I just can't stand that style of play.

I enjoyed it much more than MK11 poke throw meta and Foxy's gameplay was very lame in 11. Basically 2 button inputs into 35% Krushing Blows with looping Kung Lao throws. Constantly guess poke/throw and that was MK11 at a high level with some high level reads.

I think it was quite impressive seeing Foxy take a character most of the characters loyalists hail as bottom tier and show she is top tier in a completely different playstyle that everyone said was dead in MK1 and he did it vs numerous Top 5 chars!
And several of those players are some of the worlds best. Javier is the best in his country, AKStar in his, TekkenMaster is obviously a top player, Grr is a well known top 30 player, Boki has the respect of many top players.
Definitely a stacked tournament.
Hopefully they find a way to raise the prize pools for Top 8's so we can see Dragon, SonicFox, Ninjakilla, Xombat and Rewind all show on the following Majors. But with how little it is now many won't travel that far to compete when they can enter free online events and locals for easier $1000-$5000 prize pools

 

[Rude]

I wouldn't take what Paulo says in a stream chat very seriously.

 

[xenogorgeous]

So the thing about Scorpion.. I think Javier played really well. But you could tell that in a handful of his matches he was limited to very few options. D1 spin, ex tele, repeat etc. I think he made the most of it by outplaying people, but I’m not sure it signifies that the character is all that scary.

yeah

Sonic Fox can make MK1 Scorpion looks scary for a bit, but, this does not change the fact that Scorpion and Sub-Zero are pure garbage trash tier in this game ..... and the ironic sarcastic fun behind this, is that both are the fan favorite and marketing key fighters in the franchise so .... if NRS does not give a shit about buffing the serie franchise poster boys, what about the rest of the roster ?

 

[Juggs]

yeah

Sonic Fox can make MK1 Scorpion looks scary for a bit, but, this does not change the fact that Scorpion and Sub-Zero are pure garbage trash tier in this game ..... and the ironic sarcastic fun behind this, is that both are the fan favorite and marketing key fighters in the franchise so .... if NRS does not give a shit about buffing the serie franchise poster boys, what about the rest of the roster ?

I don’t think either character are “pure garbage” or are “trash tier”. I believe both are most likely the worst in the game, but I believe the same thing SonicFox and others have said about the characters in this game. That there are no “bad” characters, and that every character can win a major. I mean the fact that Baraka, Scorpion and to a lesser extent Kitana all got top 4 at the most recent major kinda proves that. It doesn’t necessarily mean these characters are better than we thought or that they should move up the tier list, but it shows every character can do well if you put the time into them. As a Scorpion main, he’s been my main pretty much since UMK3. Considering Human Smoke in UMK3 was just a better Scorpion, and I’ve used Scorpion in MKX, MK11, and now MK1. So even though Scorpion isn’t the best in MK1, I feel the most comfortable using him and he also happens to be the most fun character for me to use.

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

Lower the tier the less familiar people are with the character, and kameo tier feels more important than character. When im smoke motaro im worse off than scorp kung lao

 

[M2Dave]

yep , like I said, a subjective topic - I just can't stand that style of play.

Why would any player or spectator not stand variety in fighting games?

Any one fighting game that revolves around one thing, even if that one thing is zoning from my biased perspective, becomes boring and ultimately stale.

UFA was fun to watch over the weekend because of players like Foxy and Javier who used uncommon characters in an uncommon manner in order to place well. You can argue that so did Grr with Geras, Tekken Master with Baraka, and VideoGamezYo with Shao Kahn.

 

[Eji1700]

That there are no “bad” characters, and that every character can win a major.

I really do think that it's unlikely sub even top 8's a major, let alone wins one. That might have changed with tremor or might change with future patches, but as things stand right now, I don't think he's even got as much as scorpion has going for him.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

In a zoning-related twist, Hourglass of Rain, who had won the last four Kolosseum tournaments, was zoned out this week in the semifinals

 

[Shawi]

Why would any player or spectator not stand variety in fighting games?

Any one fighting game that revolves around one thing, even if that one thing is zoning from my biased perspective, becomes boring and ultimately stale.

UFA was fun to watch over the weekend because of players like Foxy and Javier who used uncommon characters in an uncommon manner in order to place well. You can argue that so did Grr with Geras, Tekken Master with Baraka, and VideoGamezYo with Shao Kahn.

The master of zoning himself! just the name M2Dave gives me nightmares of Freddy in MK9 LOL! Good times.

But seriously, I think everyone has their play style and that’s cool. I just find that style really frustrating to deal with so I can’t stand watching it.

I really enjoyed watching VGY and Grr using a mid-range spacing game, but detested Foxy’s projectile zoning game.

At least Foxy has shown you guys that there is life to zoning in MK1!

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

Rushers hate projectiles, the Zoners hate teleports, but the AntiZoning Zealots keep the community alive

 

[M2Dave]

In a zoning-related twist, Hourglass of Rain, who had won the last four Kolosseum tournaments, was zoned out this week in the semifinals

Zoned out by getting back thrown to death by Tweedy's Liu Kang/Kung Lao...

I would like all rational players on this website to once again ask themselves one simple question, why is Johnny Cage almost universally considered the best character in this game? Why is Kenshi considered the second best character? The reason is because the opposite of what they do (i.e., zoning, turtling, lame play, ice clone, etc.) is weak in comparison.

Again, a character like Johnny Cage had much better offense in MK9 and MKX than he does in MK1. The difference is that he had to contend with oppressive zoning in MK9 and powerful armor in MKX. Nowadays, Cage players toss a low hat, get in for free, and ignore your measly armor that does 11% of damage.

Where is the counter play? It is largely missing because it is not allowed to exist in a modern NRS fighting game.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Zoned out by getting back thrown to death by Tweedy's Liu Kang/Kung Lao...

I mean at the start of the match, he did condition him with throws.

But following that, the struggle against the zoning was also real. And Tweedy closed the last two games out by tagging Hourglass from fullscreen. He just seemed unsure when to teleport, etc. against Liu's ranged offense.

 

[Juggs]

Zoned out by getting back thrown to death by Tweedy's Liu Kang/Kung Lao...

I would like all rational players on this website to once again ask themselves one simple question, why is Johnny Cage almost universally considered the best character in this game? Why is Kenshi considered the second best character? The reason is because the opposite of what they do (i.e., zoning, turtling, lame play, ice clone, etc.) is weak in comparison.

Again, a character like Johnny Cage had much better offense in MK9 and MKX than he does in MK1. The difference is that he had to contend with oppressive zoning in MK9 and powerful armor in MKX. Nowadays, Cage players toss a low hat, get in for free, and ignore your measly armor that does 11% of damage.

Where is the counter play? It is largely missing because it is not allowed to exist in a modern NRS fighting game.

Like I said earlier in the thread, rushdown is obviously the superior strat in this game especially with Kameos being able to make most things you do safe. It’s just that most people hate playing against and/or watching heavy projectile zoning. So even if it’s nowhere near as strong and you don’t see it anywhere near as often, it’s gonna get complained about more. In fact I think it being more rare adds to people hating on it oddly enough. But yeah, people seem to would rather die in 2-3 hits while being 50/50’d or pressured safely than in 40 hits with tons of opportunities to win for some reason. ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[LEGEND]

Why is Kenshi considered the second best character?

I know this isn't the main point of your post but i just wanted to get some feedback on this talking point.

I really don't see how Kenshi is considered top. And as far as I've seen, he has no results whatsoever to back up his consistently high tier placement.

Seems like there are a lot of characters that are better out of the gate, and equally good once they get their stuff going. People act like Sento is an auto win condition, but it really isn't.

I don't play Kenshi at all btw, this is just my hot take based on the Kenshi's I've run into or have seen play. Feel free to blow me up.

 

[Immortal]

Nothing to blow up, you have an opinion like anybody else.

Kenshi is a top tier character coz of Sento obviously. Sento stance gives you the best pressure in a game where pressure is king. The obvious downside is when youre out of Sento stance and Kenshi base kit is mediocre but it doesn't mean he can't play the game. People found a (semi)way around Sento(high level, offline tournaments and some characters have an easier way to deal with Sento than others) but nobody is downplaying him, coz one mistake and into the sandwich you go and from there easy 50% of every touch or at best - blocking and eating chip) for days. Im not sure he is top 2 character but i still have him in top 5. Tigers think Kenshi isn't a character that can win in every MU and that's why he doesn't win tournaments, coz he can be countered and i kinda agree with that.

If you go by offline tournaments results only you could easily argue that Ashrah isn't a top tier character either, coz nobody really won with her anything in the tournaments and yet almost everybody think she's top tier(usually top 5).

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Like I said earlier in the thread, rushdown is obviously the superior strat in this game especially with Kameos being able to make most things you do safe. It’s just that most people hate playing against and/or watching heavy projectile zoning. So even if it’s nowhere near as strong and you don’t see it anywhere near as often, it’s gonna get complained about more. In fact I think it being more rare adds to people hating on it oddly enough. But yeah, people seem to would rather die in 2-3 hits while being 50/50’d or pressured safely than in 40 hits with tons of opportunities to win for some reason. ¯\(ツ)/¯

I would actually argue that space control is an equally dominant gameplay style at the moment. In how many tournament matches have we seen someone getting a life lead and then backing off to sit in it and baiting their opponent into making a mistake coming in? Or two people walking back and forth, with neither one of them wanting to commit and get whiff punished.

Although Cage is maybe the strongest character in the game, we've also seen a lot of Cage players lose to midrange space control characters in the actual events. It's pretty rare to see a tournament filled with rushdown, like we saw in MKX.

Also, the Kameos aren't just for safety. Sareena is being used to catch people moving in midrange or as a combo extender. Lao hat can be used for pressure, but it's also used as a check in midrange. JustNasty used Sub-Zero's shoulder as a midrange check, etc. Imo this is a game where all styles of play are evident much of the time.

 

[LEGEND]

Nothing to blow up, you have an opinion like anybody else.

Kenshi is a top tier character coz of Sento obviously. Sento stance gives you the best pressure in a game where pressure is king. The obvious downside is when youre out of Sento stance and Kenshi base kit is mediocre but it doesn't mean he can't play the game. People found a (semi)way around Sento(high level, offline tournaments and some characters have an easier way to deal with Sento than others) but nobody is downplaying him, coz one mistake and into the sandwich you go and from there easy 50% of every touch or at best - blocking and eating chip) for days. Im not sure he is top 2 character but i still have him in top 5. Tigers think Kenshi isn't a character that can win in every MU and that's why he doesn't win tournaments, coz he can be countered and i kinda agree with that.

If you go by offline tournaments results only you could easily argue that Ashrah isn't a top tier character either, coz nobody really won with her anything in the tournaments and yet almost everybody think she's top tier(usually top 5).

I don't think the "Sento Sandwich" is that crazy considering the HTBs that characters get off of Lao and the forever plus situations that people get from Stryker/Kano.

My one key thing here is that he kinda has to use a Kameo to get Sento out, which leaves his mediocre base kit without the general advantages that everyone else is getting with Lao or Stryker/Kano.

I also feel like my characters (Shang, Baraka) win the matchup so idk what it's like to deal with Kenshi without full screen presence and really good buttons.

 

[Juggs]

I would actually argue that space control is an equally dominant gameplay style at the moment. In how many tournament matches have we seen someone getting a life lead and then backing off to sit in it and baiting their opponent into making a mistake coming in? Or two people walking back and forth, with neither one of them wanting to commit and get whiff punished.

Although Cage is maybe the strongest character in the game, we've also seen a lot of Cage players lose to midrange space control characters in the actual events. It's pretty rare to see a tournament filled with rushdown, like we saw in MKX.

Also, the Kameos aren't just for safety. Sareena is being used to catch people moving in midrange or as a combo extender. Lao hat can be used for pressure, but it's also used as a check in midrange. JustNasty used Sub-Zero's shoulder as a midrange check, etc. Imo this is a game where all styles of play are evident much of the time.

I was talking about projectile zoning vs the opposite of that. Space control is always going to be prevalent in most fighting games.

And yeah, I didn’t say Kameos only made things safe.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

The interesting thing about Kameos though, is that this meta could change with one release

Like we saw with Cyrax, one Kameo can really have ripple effects across the entire cast. So I'm curious to see where we go from here.

But as of now, it seems pretty evenly split between playstyles. And if Johnny gets toned down (which is probably coming), then I think the meta will favor midrange play space control over rushdown even more than now.