The Sindel/Jax 80% reset and NRS’ fighting game philosophy

[Immortal]

Are you saying baraka/cyrax was fair before the patch? And I'm pretty sure Johny and Kenshi's time is coming. And others. One thing I agree with nrs is no char should do 50+% damage in one hit except maybe using maximum resourses including fatal blow...and except Shao, cause it's his schtick

I said what i said, thou nothing even remotely close to Baraka/Cyrax being fair pre nerfs. Now Baraka is a jobber again, a mid tier character, who will see no tournament play. They nerfed his only kameo to the ground and on top of that they nerfed the character, which is mindblowing.

One thing I agree with nrs is no char should do 50+% damage in one hit

Are we playing the same game? Like seriously.

Mileena of 1 hit easily gets 50%, Kenshi in Sento gets easy 50+%, Raiden with Jax hits 50%, Li Mei with Scorpion hits easy 50% and the list goes on.... Like half of the roster gets 50% without FB.

 

[Juggs]

I don't know why this has become such a big deal. Jax ground pound doesn't normally work if your opponent is in hitstun or crouched. There is obviously something wrong with state that Sindel string leaves the opponent in and Sindel's string will be fixed. Jax should not be adjusted because of this at all and the fact that that has even been suggested boggles the mind. Now if NRS wants to fix Jax for the frame perfect launch (I'm assuming this Sindel thing is not frame perfect), there's a discussion to be had there.

It’s not just Sindel, Scorpion can do this too with his hellfire, as I’ve shown & stated multiple times ITT. I’m pretty sure it’s the frame right after hitstun ends, and a frame before you gain control of your character. Because with the Scorpion one, it’s literally a frame perfect reset and it’s difficult to do. I just think the Sindel setup is naturally easier to time, so pretty much anyone can do it.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I said what i said, thou nothing even remotely close to Baraka/Cyrax being fair pre nerfs. Now Baraka is a jobber again, a mid tier character, who will see no tournament play. They nerfed his only kameo to the ground and on top of that they nerfed the character, which is mindblowing.

Baraka made Top 8 in two different tournaments this week, with two different Kameos

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1721328527109247382

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1721682461883506743

 

[Immortal]

Baraka made Top 8 in two different tournaments this week, with two different Kameos

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1721328527109247382

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1721682461883506743

You did miss my previous post, where i said offline tournaments, online means very little like it was shown at ECT. Tweedy is a Baraka loyalist but even he said several times on stream that Baraka now is mid tier character at best and got nerfed(character) for god only known what reasons.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

You did miss my previous post, where i said offline tournaments, online means very little like it was shown at ECT. Tweedy is a Baraka loyalist but even he said several times on stream that Baraka now is mid tier character at best and got nerfed(character) for god only known what reasons.

Tweedy didn’t go to ECT because he takes online more seriously than offline (and has for years). And he’s said directly that he thinks Baraka is very strong.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1719940543407415626

So I really think people should just let things play out. Clearly the character is still viable.

 

[ImpostorOak]

Just on the topic of online/offline real quick, because it's been a debate since I first got into the fgc in 2011.

Offline performance is less important, though I see it argued the other way around. How things perform online is how 90+% of people experience the game the vast majority of the time.

NRS should balance based on the online experience. Tournament players shouldn't really be the loudest voice, solely because they're such a minority. They're playing the most authentic version of the game at the highest level, and that's undisputed, but the truth is most people, even most of us, don't do that. And they can do that with something that pleases the majority, too.

 

[Immortal]

Tweedy didn’t go to ECT because he takes online more seriously than offline (and has for years). And he’s said directly that he thinks Baraka is very strong.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1719940543407415626

So I really think people should just let things play out. Clearly the character is still viable.

I seriously was on his stream after the nerfs listening to him saying how bad Baraka is. Maybe he did change his mind later. Regardles, like i said i dont think Baraka is more than mid tier character. That being said i didn't say and i'm not saying he needs buffs now.

Also he doesn't take online more seriously than offline. He said he didn't go to ECT coz the prize pool was laughable(which it was, whole Pro Komp is a joke) and it wouldn't even cover travel expenses, where he can just sit at home and make money of streaming, which makes sense.

To the op: balancing a fighting game based on online experience was always and always will be a terrible idea which makes for totally broken balance.

 

[CipherJ]

I still hate that all it did was gut Baraka and cyrax to the point NO ONE ever uses them anymore. Raiden is still annoying as fuck and doing 50% combos with jax/sektor. Johnny is unchanged, as is Ashrah and Kenshi. I've seen zero rise in the use of Reptile, Scorpion, Nitara and Sub-Zero, which are still the bottom 4.

1 bar 1 kameo Raiden Jax use to do 467 now it is 389. Decent nerf. Raiden is not as dominant as before and Jax doesn’t have storm cell follow up like Raiden Cyrax did.
Some people won’t be happy until Raiden is low A or B tier I guess.

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

1 bar 1 kameo Raiden Jax use to do 467 now it is 389. Decent nerf. Raiden is not as dominant as before and Jax doesn’t have storm cell follow up like Raiden Cyrax did.
Some people won’t be happy until Raiden is low A or B tier I guess.

Yeah, now he does 467 with two kameo bars, while 1/4 of it is already charged by the time he ends the combo. He can still stormcell into jax ground pound, which will always be in his favor since he takes less damage from jax while chipping you and resetting the neutral. He is still top 5, but some people are pretty happy just downplaying him forever, I guess.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I seriously was on his stream after the nerfs listening to him saying how bad Baraka is. Maybe he did change his mind later. Regardles, like i said i dont think Baraka is more than mid tier character. That being said i didn't say and i'm not saying he needs buffs now.

Also he doesn't take online more seriously than offline. He said he didn't go to ECT coz the prize pool was laughable(which it was, whole Pro Komp is a joke) and it wouldn't even cover travel expenses, where he can just sit at home and make money of streaming, which makes sense.

To the op: balancing a fighting game based on online experience was always and always will be a terrible idea which makes for totally broken balance.

Yeah, he was definitely depressed after, lol. I think it’s a natural reaction for anyone whose character gets hit.

That’s why it always takes some time for people to cool off and look at things objectively again.

 

[CipherJ]

Yeah, now he does 467 with two kameo bars, while 1/4 of it is already charged by the time he ends the combo. He can still stormcell into jax ground pound, which will always be in his favor since he takes less damage from jax while chipping you and resetting the neutral. He is still top 5, but some people are pretty happy just downplaying him forever, I guess.

Only if you count 34 34 f34… a viable combo path sure—pretty rare to see that. Before he was getting >50% with 242 combo starter, which everyone uses as a pressure or punish string.

Also ground pound on blocked storm cell ends pressure with low damage. If Raiden does a string into storm cell with ground pound follow up you can literally let last hit of storm cell hit you and the g pound will only hit Raiden, because you will be popped into air when it hits. Then you have free oki on Raiden.

The Raidens I see now use Kano, Stryker, and Sektor. He is still top 5–the nerf was necessary. But lets buff others that are weak. Before making Raiden Dead Shot.

 

[BarakaTile]

Just nerf Sindel. That'll fix the issue.

 

[NoCharge]

Mileena of 1 hit easily gets 50%, Kenshi in Sento gets easy 50+%, Raiden with Jax hits 50%, Li Mei with Scorpion hits easy 50% and the list goes on.... Like half of the roster gets 50% without FB.

I know. And it's bonkers imo. Shouldn't be this way.

 

[Juggs]

I know. And it's bonkers imo. Shouldn't be this way.

I think it’s fine that characters get 50% damage, but I don’t think any character should be able to get it without using like 2 bars of meter and at maybe 1 Kameo move as well. As far as 1 bar combos, anything up to 45% is fine imo. I think overall high damaging combos are great especially for this game. However, I think you should only be able to get high damage off of high/mid starters. And that if a combo starts off of an overhead or low, that there’s a ton of damage scaling. Might sound weird, I just feel like taking 40-50% for an actual mistake is fine. But taking 40-50% just for guessing wrong due to a 50/50 is dumb imo and why MKX is my least favorite NRS game.

An issue I have with MK1 and NRS is I’m not entirely sure what type of game they want it to be competitively. Because I thought they wanted a crazy but fun game with super high damaging combos, a lot of busted stuff, but nothing too too crazy, a ton of creativity and creative/unique combos, etc etc. But with the patches we have got so far, including the one from the beta to the full release, it kinda feels like they’re sending mixed messages. Almost like they’re also not even sure what type of game they want MK1 to be. But there’s a similar issue with the early decisions that MK11 had that MK1 seems to he heading towards. In the MK11 beta, I absolutely LOVED the custom variations mechanic. It was some of the most fun I’ve had playing an NRS game. It had a very slight resemblance or feeling of a game like Dark Souls PvP where you can make your own build and then use that character to fight other players with. But then they completely sucked all the joy out of me (giggity) by saying custom variations wouldn’t be allowed in ranked or in tournaments. This was after doing soo much promotion for custom variations mind you.

And by the time they realized their mistake and finally allowed them in ranked and for tournaments, it was too late (imo).

So I’m just hoping MK1 doesn’t suffer a similar fate to where NRS focuses far too much on no characters having anything too good and bringing every character down instead of pulling every character up for the sake of “balance”. When they can accomplish balance in a different way without gutting characters. ¯\(ツ)/¯
inb4 Crimson comes in saying how NRS is actually amazing and how everything I said was wrong

 

[just_2swift]

Just make it like havik neck snap and scale the dmg and cost full kameo bar so it wont loop.

this would be ideal instead of killing the kameo

 

[just_2swift]

Just make it like havik neck snap and scale the dmg and cost full kameo bar so it wont loop.

this would be ideal instead of killing the kameo

Yep nrs done it again. Called this before the cyrax nerf. Every kameo will be slowly stripped by either making them useless or making a tool they have useles.

 

[John_NX]

I think it’s fine that characters get 50% damage, but I don’t think any character should be able to get it without using like 2 bars of meter and at maybe 1 Kameo move as well. As far as 1 bar combos, anything up to 45% is fine imo. I think overall high damaging combos are great especially for this game. However, I think you should only be able to get high damage off of high/mid starters. And that if a combo starts off of an overhead or low, that there’s a ton of damage scaling. Might sound weird, I just feel like taking 40-50% for an actual mistake is fine. But taking 40-50% just for guessing wrong due to a 50/50 is dumb imo and why MKX is my least favorite NRS game.

An issue I have with MK1 and NRS is I’m not entirely sure what type of game they want it to be competitively. Because I thought they wanted a crazy but fun game with super high damaging combos, a lot of busted stuff, but nothing too too crazy, a ton of creativity and creative/unique combos, etc etc. But with the patches we have got so far, including the one from the beta to the full release, it kinda feels like they’re sending mixed messages. Almost like they’re also not even sure what type of game they want MK1 to be. But there’s a similar issue with the early decisions that MK11 had that MK1 seems to he heading towards. In the MK11 beta, I absolutely LOVED the custom variations mechanic. It was some of the most fun I’ve had playing an NRS game. It had a very slight resemblance or feeling of a game like Dark Souls PvP where you can make your own build and then use that character to fight other players with. But then they completely sucked all the joy out of me (giggity) by saying custom variations wouldn’t be allowed in ranked or in tournaments. This was after doing soo much promotion for custom variations mind you.

And by the time they realized their mistake and finally allowed them in ranked and for tournaments, it was too late (imo).

So I’m just hoping MK1 doesn’t suffer a similar fate to where NRS focuses far too much on no characters having anything too good and bringing every character down instead of pulling every character up for the sake of “balance”. When they can accomplish balance in a different way without gutting characters. ¯\(ツ)/¯
inb4 Crimson comes in saying how NRS is actually amazing and how everything I said was wrong

This is exactly why I'm afraid of characters like sub zero getting buffed. He already has 50/50's. Buffing him, and losing possibly around 30-40% would just make me hate the character, as much as I hated him in MK11 with his braindead gameplay and 45% fatal blow combo.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

I actually like the Jax ground pound adjustment. It's still useful and prevent characters from doing the unblockable.
Good job NRS!
Sindel is still strong, no issues here

Just a tip if you want to punish Sindel's Flight Cancels you can Armor/Upblock the EX Hairball and meterless Flight Cancels into Ji1/Ji3.
If they are not making Lao hat hit exactly 2 frames of the J1 then you can UpBlock but if they use Lao like that then you auto block the HTB if you block the first one. If they are using Stryker don't try to punish it, if they call Grenades just before B2 starts.
She does have other way to punish armor by DD Block after flight cancel instead of J1.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

He is not wrong about Baraka, i seen maybe 1 in 40 games, almost nobody wants to play him coz why bother when Raiden, Cage and others have WAY better base kit of moves, better kameo synergy and gets higher damage. Cyrax did for Baraka the same as he did for Rain, made him able to compete with top tiers, now he is just another mid tier character which will see little to no tournament play(even before nerfs he was not considered very good for offline tournament play and now he doesn't even exist in that conversation).

I have news for you..

 

[Immortal]

No, you don't.

I do believe that TM is like Fox or Ninja, he could make an ant look like the best character in the game. Without the best players around(no disrespect for those who were there) it only proved for me that TM is still one of the best MK players and above anybody who was at that tournament. I'm pretty sure Ninja or Fox could pick up Baraka an steamroll everybody else with him.

I really am eager to see how he will compete with Baraka(if he plays him, he plays like 20 characters lol) vs Fox/Ninja and several others etc... Time will tell... and sleep well, i will be first here to say i was wrong about Baraka if he wins/beat them with him.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

No, you don't.

I do believe that TM is like Fox or Ninja, he could make an ant look like the best character in the game. Without the best players around(no disrespect for those who were there) it only proved for me that TM is still one of the best MK players and above anybody who was at that tournament. I'm pretty sure Ninja or Fox could pick up Baraka an steamroll everybody else with him.

I really am eager to see how he will compete with Baraka(if he plays him, he plays like 20 characters lol) vs Fox/Ninja and several others etc... Time will tell... and sleep well, i will be first here to say i was wrong about Baraka if he wins/beat them with him.

TM and Tweedy both made Top 8 within a week. I think it’s pretty clear that “nobody wants to play him” isn’t true. Baraka is clearly competitively viable.

 

[Immortal]

Please stop cherry picking which you do all the time.

Every character in this game is "viable" meaning a great player can make him or any other character to work, that includes the likes of even Scorpion or Sub Zero. I have Baraka in mid tier, which i said several times already. You just have to work harder / make more reads with them than with a better characters.

"Nobody wants to play him" wasn't meant to be taken directly. There always will be somebody who wants to play Baraka, Scorpion, Sub Zero etc... and i have no doubt that a great player like Fox/Ninja and several others can win a tournament with any of them. Doesn't mean they're top tier characters etc... Player > character if isn't obvious.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Please stop cherry picking which you do all the time.

Every character in this game is "viable" meaning a great player can make him or any other character to work, that includes the likes of even Scorpion or Sub Zero. I have Baraka in mid tier, which i said several times already. You just have to work harder / make more reads with them than with a better characters.

"Nobody wants to play him" wasn't meant to be taken directly. There always will be somebody who wants to play Baraka, Scorpion, Sub Zero etc... and i have no doubt that a great player like Fox/Ninja and several others can win a tournament with any of them. Player > character if isn't obvious.

Baraka is better than both Scorpion and Sub. I don’t think that’s comparable at all.

 

[Immortal]

I'm done, you just cherry picked again lmao.

I didn't say anywhere that Scorpion or Sub Zero is in the same tier as Baraka. And no, putting them in the same sentence doesn't mean that in any shape or form.

That was an example of "weak" characters, who "nobody wants to play" which shouldn't be taken directly AND that a great player can make them work in tournaments, even win them. Also im not gonna even go into tier lists and who is better/higher than who, coz its extremely subjective.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I'm done, you just cherry picked again lmao.

I didn't say anywhere that Scorpion or Sub Zero is in the same tier as Baraka. And no, putting them in the same sentence doesn't mean that in any shape or form.

That was an example of "weak" characters, who "nobody wants to play" which shouldn't be taken directly AND that a great player can make them work in tournaments, even win them. Also im not gonna even go into tier lists and who is better/higher than who, coz its extremely subjective.

And Tekken Master only plays strong characters in tournament. Always has, always will. At the end of the day he wants to win. He’s not someone who goes into tourney and sticks to a random character for lulz.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1722186802365112348