The Sindel/Jax 80% reset and NRS’ fighting game philosophy

[Amplified$hotz]

If you haven’t seen it already, Rip’s Arena had a Sindel player use an 80%+ inescapable reset with the Jax kameo:

https://x.com/r1ps_arena/status/1720918409351762065?s=46&t=hSkiyIrskk7H7tDvqotbpg

The host of the tournament previously told the player that it was banned because he didn’t think it was intended, and had the players replay the match.

Of course this caused a dust up on twitter/X with some saying it should be banned. Some saying it shouldn’t.

Some people like Sonicfox saying Jax shouldn’t have an unblockable in an assist game.

https://x.com/sonicfox/status/1720933473878483032?s=46&t=hSkiyIrskk7H7tDvqotbpg

While players like perfect legend say that Smoke and Cyrax had similar strategies in MK9, so it should rock.

https://x.com/perfectlegend/status/1720954190380359840?s=46&t=hSkiyIrskk7H7tDvqotbpg

Personally I feel like this is a pivotal point in MK1’s life and a microcosm of the split in the community.

On one side we have people (like myself) who don’t really like setplay and “dirt” that basically doesn’t allow the other player to play the game.

On the other side we have MKX lovers who love dirt, insane combos, nasty resets, who found enjoyment playing with pre-patch cyrax and Kung Lao.

Players like MK Tom Brady has explained that he feels like some characters (like Cage) have their handcuffs off, while some characters like (Sub-Zero) are very limited so they don’t get cried about.

My question is, should NRS nerf this, or let it rock? Should the game go in the direction of just allowing broken stuff like your usual assist fighter.

Or should the metaphorical “handcuffs” been placed on this too like it was on Cyrax.

I feel like since NRS has been changing their fighting game philosophy over the years, they’ve attracted players with different philosophies.

MK9 players who fought against Smoke and Cyrax don’t really hate the resets. They’re saying that’s what Jax is intended to do so it should stay.

While some MK11ers are very much against it.

One example is with instant air fireballs. They were fun to do in MK9 and Injustice, but after the infamous Zod-Lex Luther matchup, and then MKX Liu Kang’s stuff, they got rid of them. That’s one of many examples of handcuffs that have been put in place in NRS games for the greater good, that some may feel are limiting.

I’m personally split. I would understand if they changed it. But if the precedent is “everytime you find crazy tech, we’ll nerf it”, that’ll turn a lot of people off.

Players like rewind have already decided to avoid sharing tech because of this: https://x.com/rewindnv/status/1716836327961075777?s=46&t=hSkiyIrskk7H7tDvqotbpg

TL;DR What philosophy do you think NRS games should adopt? Let broken stuff rock, or handcuff things in order to prevent any one character from getting out of hand?

Edit: The tournament host banned it ahead of time

 

[Eji1700]

If you make an assist game and don't have dirt you've probably fucked up.

Is this too good? Probably. Should it be totally removed? No. Balancing interesting mechanics is something plenty of other games have managed and it shouldn't be that hard in MK1. They'll probably just make a restand animation splat when hit by an unblockable (which is boring af but oh well).

As for the mid tournament ban, I don't like that. Rules should be established BEFORE the tournament, not during. And you sure as shit shouldn't have to replay the round you just won.

Oh and the reasoning is bad as well. "Probably not intended" is a judgement call no player should get to make, ESPECIALLY in a fighting game where plenty of unintended shit has rocked.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

If you make an assist game and don't have dirt you've probably fucked up.

Is this too good? Probably. Should it be totally removed? No. Balancing interesting mechanics is something plenty of other games have managed and it shouldn't be that hard in MK1. They'll probably just make a restand animation splat when hit by an unblockable (which is boring af but oh well).

As for the mid tournament ban, I don't like that. Rules should be established BEFORE the tournament, not during. And you sure as shit shouldn't have to replay the round you just won.

Oh and the reasoning is bad as well. "Probably not intended" is a judgement call no player should get to make, ESPECIALLY in a fighting game where plenty of unintended shit has rocked.

He banned it before the tournament, however I think the Sindel player forgot. I updated the OP with a screenshot.

That’s true. Like you said that would be boring which is what we want to prevent lol.

 

[GeoffBedlam]

If Johnny/Stryker can get around 55-60 percent by using all resources, I say just make Jax's Ground Pound take the whole Kameo meter so that it can only be done once and get a similar result.

 

[wsj515]

It shouldn't exist in its current form, but there are a number of things they could do to keep it as dirt/tech. Make it not launch, make it cost full kameo, there are plenty of things. Goro stomp is unblockable and costs full bar, but just knocks them down.

If the opponent can't interact with the situation at all outside of breaker, it should either be extremely expensive and not lead to such massive damage, or it shouldn't exist. There already is precedent set for NRS philosophy for such things in this game, like goro stomp, havik neck snap - you could even include cyrax mb throw and throw combo scaling in general.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

 

[Juggs]

“Dirt” doesn’t equal inescapable/unblockable resets, infinites, and stuff like that. Dirt is just things a character has that are really good but not broken or that dominate the meta.

Scorpion can do this reset with Jax in the corner, however it’s a FRAME PERFECT reset. So not only do you have to have them in the corner, the reset is literally frame perfect and very difficult to do consistently.

However this Sindel one is very easy to do. I’ve never used Sindel outside of the combo trials and story mode and was able to do it fairly quickly. I of course wasn’t able to do the full setup and combo, but was able to get it to where Jax popped up the opponent with his groundpound even while they were holding down+block.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1721229265977376949

Things like this need to be talked about beforehand. And if you want to ban all inescapable+unblockable resets, make that clear before the tournament. The best way to do it is to not just say “the Sindel+Jax inescapable reset is banned”, you have to say all of them are banned and then you have to make it clear if it can be done at all. Meaning, can you do it once per combo or can you not do it at all? And can you just not combo afterwards? Meaning can you do the setup into the groundpound but just don’t combo after it?

A lot of things surrounding stuff like this can be ambiguous and open to interpretation. So, if this happens and clear rules weren’t set beforehand, you shouldn’t make them replay the round or match. It should just not be allowed going forward.

 

[NoCharge]

I myself don't want and do not enjoy playing a one/two touch game. This situation is basically the same as pre-patch Raiden, where he would touch you two times and you lose the round. If it stays in, I may head out of the game and, more importantly, out of the tournament scene, since pretty sure it'll be only sindel/jax if money is on the line. Don't wanna watch that.
At the same time I'm pretty sure it's not intentional and hope it will get patched out asap.
These kinds of things should've been expected from the moment it was declared an assist based game. But they should be dealt with asap.

 

[NoCharge]

I also disagree with banning mid tournament for this. Definitely not to replay the match, maybe restrict using jax, still doesn't violate established tournament rules.

 

[FoughtDragon01]

They could try having Jax's unblockable scale the living hell out of the follow-up combo like what Havik's unblockable does. Make it a struggle for a combo to break 20%, if even that. Besides that, I don't know what the hell NRS was expecting to happen when they gave Jax an unblockable, launching assist anyway. Stuff like this reset was bound to happen eventually, and more would probably be discovered as they add more characters.

 

[Juggs]

Feels like the easiest solution for this would be to have Jax's unblockable scale the living hell out of the follow-up combo like what Havik's unblockable does. Make it a struggle for a combo to break 20%. Besides that, I don't know what the hell NRS was expecting to happen when they gave Jax an unblockable, launching assist anyway. Stuff like this was bound to happen eventually.

An easier solution would just be to make the groundpound not launch. No real reason that it needs to as it only leads to inescapable resets from what we’ve seen so far.

 

[Eji1700]

He banned it before the tournament, however I think the Sindel player forgot. I updated the OP with a screenshot.

Ahh ok. Yeah more than fair then to even replay the match. Could've just given him a loss for not following the rules. Thought this was a kneejerk "that looks unfair" reaction.

“Dirt” doesn’t equal inescapable/unblockable resets, infinites, and stuff like that. Dirt is just things a character has that are really good but not broken or that dominate the meta.

According to who? This is always the issue with FGC stuff. Everyone's got different standards and definitions.

Scorpion can do this reset with Jax in the corner, however it’s a FRAME PERFECT reset. So not only do you have to have them in the corner, the reset is literally frame perfect and very difficult to do consistently.

However this Sindel one is very easy to do. I’ve never used Sindel outside of the combo trials and story mode and was able to do it fairly quickly. I of course wasn’t able to do the full setup and combo, but was able to get it to where Jax popped up the opponent with his groundpound even while they were holding down+block.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1721229265977376949

Things like this need to be talked about beforehand. And if you want to ban all inescapable+unblockable resets, make that clear before the tournament. The best way to do it is to not just say “the Sindel+Jax inescapable reset is banned”, you have to say all of them are banned and then you have to make it clear if it can be done at all. Meaning, can you do it once per combo or can you not do it at all? And can you just not combo afterwards? Meaning can you do the setup into the groundpound but just don’t combo after it?

A lot of things surrounding stuff like this can be ambiguous and open to interpretation. So, if this happens and clear rules weren’t set beforehand, you shouldn’t make them replay the round or match. It should just not be allowed going forward.

I mean i'm of the opinion that if you're going to have some sort of ban, you just ban it entirely. Half measures are just going to wind up with more strain on the tournament staff and arguments between players.

An easier solution would just be to make the groundpound not launch. No real reason that it needs to as it only leads to inescapable resets from what we’ve seen so far.

It's also boring as hell. I'd rather it just not launch during restand stun. Setting up hard to handle situations is the point of the move. If you just want it to be "free x damage" well ok but feels like a major whiff on design.


NRS has a weird road ahead of them. Tag fighters are notorious for just being full of bullshit. MvC/SkullGirls/DBZ are the 3 most well known that I can think of, and they've all got absolutely disgusting setups/options/zoning/whatever.

They also have an inherent safety feature in that you can only do about 1/3rd of someone's life on a touch...usually (iron man, cable, firebrand, god knows what else I don't know about, etc). On top of that they don't get the feature where you wind up with a less powerful character for their really good assist (captain commando, although outside of MvC that's less of an issue.).

They're going to have to figure things out in their own way. I, personally, like that they've been more aggressive with it than passive, especially coming off the back of MK11 and it's kid gloves approach. Having cooldowns be more dynamic (different cd for on hit vs on block/whiff) or having bigger punishes for tagging a kameo would go a long way towards giving them more tools to tweak powerful abilities.

We all want variety, not the same shit, and getting there isn't going to be done by just breaking everyone's legs until we're back in MK11 where it feels like you smashed together guilty gear and street fighter casts and are wondering why half of them can't compete. Will NRS do that? So far, no, but here's hoping.

 

[Juggs]

According to who? This is always the issue with FGC stuff. Everyone's got different standards and definitions.

There isn’t a concrete definition anywhere or anything like that if that’s what you’re asking. But generally speaking when people refer to a character having “dirt” in a fighting game, they’re referring to a character having something that is lame, grimey, really good, cheap, etc. But it’s not typically reserved for something that is broken or overpowered.

Regardless, it’s good to define what an individual means when they use certain terminology that may not have a clear definition like “dirt” in this context.

I mean i'm of the opinion that if you're going to have some sort of ban, you just ban it entirely. Half measures are just going to wind up with more strain on the tournament staff and arguments between players.

Sure, but you have to make it clear regardless before the tournament. Not saying that in this situation this wasn’t made clear before the tournament because it seems like it was.

It's also boring as hell. I'd rather it just not launch during restand stun. Setting up hard to handle situations is the point of the move. If you just want it to be "free x damage" well ok but feels like a major whiff on design

Sometimes sacrifices need to be made. And sometimes half measures just aren’t sufficient, as you said. Because I may be wrong, but I don’t think it launches during restand stun. Or rather I don’t think that’s the issue. I think it’s the time between the stun and the recovery from that stun that is causing this. Do it too early and it either doesn’t launch or it counts as the same combo and doesn’t reset. Do it too late and the ducking/crouch blocking also causes the GP to not pop you up. It just so happens that the Sindel setup is super easy to time, at least in comparison to say the Scorpion+Jax corner one I mentioned.

We all want variety, not the same shit, and getting there isn't going to be done by just breaking everyone's legs until we're back in MK11 where it feels like you smashed together guilty gear and street fighter casts and are wondering why half of them can't compete. Will NRS do that? So far, no, but here's hoping.

This is exactly what I’ve been saying and advocating for. Not just with this game, it’s been nearly a decade at this point. You don’t need to overdo it on any nerf, period. They should only ever be doing slight nerfs while simultaneously buffing the lower tiered characters that need it. And you just keep repeating this process.

But I’ve spoken about this like a thousand times at this point, don’t want to sound like a broken record. And luckily, it seems most competitive to tournament players are advocating for the same thing, which makes me happy and genuinely think that NRS is finally going to listen. All we need to do is kidnap Crimson and take away his access to the internet, then we may just get the best MK game of all time!

 

[haketh]

An easier solution would just be to make the groundpound not launch. No real reason that it needs to as it only leads to inescapable resets from what we’ve seen so far.

That’s boring as Hell, I play games like this to do these exact kinda setups & make people feel bad.

Just make it cost a full Kameo Bar & make some adjustments to Jax’s other Kameo moves to compensate the change.

 

[hkriderz]

Full Kameo bar is the shittiest nerf to anything and should never happen unless a move is just way too good. And there’s no way Jax’s ground pound is worth full kameo bar. Do we really want another Cyrax situation?

There’s plenty of other adjustments they can make before that. Such a lazy and lame nerf from people who don’t play and don’t care to understand the kameo. I’d rather it not launch compared to it costing full bar

 

[Tony at Home]

The "ban" on this before the match seemed very informal, and the terminology used for this informal conditional ban didn't really reflect the nature of the exploit. Obviously this is pretty busted but as executed it's not an infinite, simply because the kameo doesn't recharge fast enough to keep it going indefinitely.

This should have been allowed to rock for the event and banned only afterwards. You cannot make up rules as you go, and you need to be extremely clear about what is allowed and what isn't. If using an exploit results in a re-match because a ban would be deemed too harsh, then that categorically means you haven't made things as clear as they should be.

R1Ps arena had to make a short-notice call so it's hard to knock them for this.

 

[zerosebaz]

He needz it.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

“Dirt” doesn’t equal inescapable/unblockable resets, infinites, and stuff like that. Dirt is just things a character has that are really good but not broken or that dominate the meta.

Scorpion can do this reset with Jax in the corner, however it’s a FRAME PERFECT reset. So not only do you have to have them in the corner, the reset is literally frame perfect and very difficult to do consistently.

However this Sindel one is very easy to do. I’ve never used Sindel outside of the combo trials and story mode and was able to do it fairly quickly. I of course wasn’t able to do the full setup and combo, but was able to get it to where Jax popped up the opponent with his groundpound even while they were holding down+block.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1721229265977376949

Things like this need to be talked about beforehand. And if you want to ban all inescapable+unblockable resets, make that clear before the tournament. The best way to do it is to not just say “the Sindel+Jax inescapable reset is banned”, you have to say all of them are banned and then you have to make it clear if it can be done at all. Meaning, can you do it once per combo or can you not do it at all? And can you just not combo afterwards? Meaning can you do the setup into the groundpound but just don’t combo after it?

A lot of things surrounding stuff like this can be ambiguous and open to interpretation. So, if this happens and clear rules weren’t set beforehand, you shouldn’t make them replay the round or match. It should just not be allowed going forward.

They could try having Jax's unblockable scale the living hell out of the follow-up combo like what Havik's unblockable does. Make it a struggle for a combo to break 20%, if even that. Besides that, I don't know what the hell NRS was expecting to happen when they gave Jax an unblockable, launching assist anyway. Stuff like this reset was bound to happen eventually, and more would probably be discovered as they add more characters.

An easier solution would just be to make the groundpound not launch. No real reason that it needs to as it only leads to inescapable resets from what we’ve seen so far.

There isn’t a concrete definition anywhere or anything like that if that’s what you’re asking. But generally speaking when people refer to a character having “dirt” in a fighting game, they’re referring to a character having something that is lame, grimey, really good, cheap, etc. But it’s not typically reserved for something that is broken or overpowered.

Regardless, it’s good to define what an individual means when they use certain terminology that may not have a clear definition like “dirt” in this context.



Sure, but you have to make it clear regardless before the tournament. Not saying that in this situation this wasn’t made clear before the tournament because it seems like it was.



Sometimes sacrifices need to be made. And sometimes half measures just aren’t sufficient, as you said. Because I may be wrong, but I don’t think it launches during restand stun. Or rather I don’t think that’s the issue. I think it’s the time between the stun and the recovery from that stun that is causing this. Do it too early and it either doesn’t launch or it counts as the same combo and doesn’t reset. Do it too late and the ducking/crouch blocking also causes the GP to not pop you up. It just so happens that the Sindel setup is super easy to time, at least in comparison to say the Scorpion+Jax corner one I mentioned.



This is exactly what I’ve been saying and advocating for. Not just with this game, it’s been nearly a decade at this point. You don’t need to overdo it on any nerf, period. They should only ever be doing slight nerfs while simultaneously buffing the lower tiered characters that need it. And you just keep repeating this process.

But I’ve spoken about this like a thousand times at this point, don’t want to sound like a broken record. And luckily, it seems most competitive to tournament players are advocating for the same thing, which makes me happy and genuinely think that NRS is finally going to listen. All we need to do is kidnap Crimson and take away his access to the internet, then we may just get the best MK game of all time!

Nerfing Jax when people are already complaining that most kameos aren’t used very much could be bad. Especially nerfing him for what he does with just a few characters. And nerfing Sindel may be bad too.

Maybe this won’t happen, but let’s say another unblockable reset comes up, do you think they should just nerf it every time?
Every nerf is essentially a limitation, and too many limitations make the game boring.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Full Kameo bar is the shittiest nerf to anything and should never happen unless a move is just way too good. And there’s no way Jax’s ground pound is worth full kameo bar. Do we really want another Cyrax situation?

There’s plenty of other adjustments they can make before that. Such a lazy and lame nerf from people who don’t play and don’t care to understand the kameo. I’d rather it not launch compared to it costing full bar

Yeah, like it’s not just about nerfing Jax. It’s about nerfing him and still having a reason to pick him over other kameos. He’s already a very niche pick to begin with.

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

This should be addressed/nerfed/fixed asap. It's a braindead easy 80% INESCAPABLE combo. There simply isnt counterplay to it after you get hit besides breaking - this isn't MK9 and should never be, with Cyrax's resets and other dumb shit. Even pre-patch Quan Chi Summoner bat HTBs had some way to play against. TBH, it shocks me a little that people would want this to stay in the game as is. Maybe make it do 40% and cost meter to do, IDK, it's obviously an exploit.

 

[G82Boost]

MK9 Noob:

MK9 Smoke:

MK9 Cyrax:

MK9 Quan:

None of these characters were considered the best in the game, this is why nerfing shit instead of buffing others is so dumb. You can even throw Johnny cage from mk9 in there too he technically did the same shit.

 

[Juggs]

Btw, when Check found this with Scorpion + Jax in the corner, I tested it as well and made a video about it.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1718094652555812989

I was fine with Scorpion & Jax having this since it can only be done in the corner and it’s literally a frame perfect setup. With Sindel + Jax’s inescapable reset, it’s infinitely (hehe) easier and can be done just about anywhere, or at the very least midscreen.

There’s a few things I believe they can do to address this. They completely failed at addressing it the first time and nerfed Scorpion instead of Jax (they nerfed the hitstun of Hellfire. Which didn’t even get rid of the reset, well, one of the ways to do it at least, AND they nerfed a move that didn’t deserve to be nerfed as an attempt to prevent this from happening. Which completely messed up other setups Scorpion had). Hopefully they learn from their mistakes, fix Hellfire to have the hitstun it had pre-patch, and actually nerf/change/fix Jax’s groundpound. If they have learned nothing, they’ll nerf Sindel instead. ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[REYTHEGREAT]

This is only the beginning, well, Cyrax was but you get the point . There’s a lot more “broken” stuff yet to be discovered .

 

[G82Boost]

This is only the beginning, well, Cyrax was but you get the point . There’s a lot more “broken” stuff yet to be discovered .

I can tell your one of those who want an ABC game

 

[Plop]

MK9 Noob:

MK9 Smoke:

MK9 Cyrax:

MK9 Quan:

None of these characters were considered the best in the game, this is why nerfing shit instead of buffing others is so dumb. You can even throw Johnny cage from mk9 in there too he technically did the same shit.

Aaah the good old days <3..

Jax could do this shit back then too.