NRS Speaks and Confirms MK11 is Officially Done

[Art Lean]

Nope, i would be shocked if they would bother with this.

You fail to understand how the whole proces of patching works, it's not a job for an intern and there is whole certification process for it on top of having to do it for every platform (outside studio handle MK on PC and one more for Switch = additional money). Makes 0 sense to do such a minor fixes from the bussines perspective and that's the only perspective that matters.

I accept that. I freely admit I don't know anything about the games industry or game development, I'm just saying it as the average guy on the street (and indeed my comments about the intern were just silly jovial solutions, not actual business advice), it comes across as a sloppy bug that in my own naive logic could surely be fixed in 5 minutes by someone on the team who knows the code since it's a clear and obvious visual flaw that's noticeable to anyone buying the game at this stage when it's meant to be 'complete' and never used to be there. It just seems like something that they would surely like to not be a permanent ugly mark on the package in its supposed final state; balancing of gameplay and characters is one thing, but that's a deep unseen mechanic that the average consumer may never know or even be able to comprehend (and all MK games are guilty of that in some regard), but for a final product shouldn't the basic visuals of menus etc. be complete and perfected at this time rather than an ugly and obvious clipping glitch that only turned up recently?

Maybe my perception is completely flawed and I acknowledge that; I'm a civil servant for my local government working in welfare benefits. Every day when someone rings us to complain about something, especially with how our computer system runs the benefits that give the poor and needy their money to live, we have to literally look into it if it's raised, no matter how small. If a complaint is raised, then management step in to see it seen through to conclusion, even when we deal with people we know are doing it solely to troll us. Therefore when on the other side of things when I'm seeing things that are a case of "hey there's something clearly wrong on your system" in a consumer product and someone goes "Yup, not going to fix it" it seems strange to me, since we have to respond to every critique no matter how small for an entire population out of public duty.

 

[kantboy-2]

So much crunch for the fresh new MK that ends up stale and forgotten before SFV, of all games, ends development.

 

[Immortal]

I accept that. I freely admit I don't know anything about the games industry or game development, I'm just saying it as the average guy on the street (and indeed my comments about the intern were just silly jovial solutions, not actual business advice), it comes across as a sloppy bug that in my own naive logic could surely be fixed in 5 minutes by someone on the team who knows the code since it's a clear and obvious, yet also a simple and clear visual flaw that's noticeable to anyone buying the game at this stage when it's meant to be 'complete' and never used to be there. It just seems like something that they would surely like to not be a permanent ugly mark on the package in its supposed final state; balancing of gameplay and characters is one thing, but that's a deep unseen mechanic that the average consumer may never know or even be able to comprehend (and all MK games are guilty of that in some regard), but for a final product shouldn't the basic visuals of menus etc. be complete and perfected at this time rather than an ugly and obvious clipping glitch that only turned up recently?

Maybe my perception is completely flawed and I acknowledge that; I'm a civil servant for my local government working in welfare benefits. Every day when someone rings us to complain about something, especially with how our computer system runs the benefits that give the poor and needy their money to live, we have to literally look into it if it's raised, no matter how small. If a complaint is raised, then management step in to see it seen through to conclusion, even when we deal with people we know are doing it solely to troll us. Therefore when on the other side of things when I'm seeing things that are a case of "hey there's something clearly wrong on your system" in a consumer product and someone goes "Yup, not going to fix it" it seems strange to me, since we have to respond to every critique no matter how small for an entire population out of public duty.

Im going to be as honest as i can be with you on that topic since i work in gaming industry for almost 25 years now and went throu almost every possible position at company i work starting of as an... intern throu junior programer, senior programer, producer and now one of few lead game designers. What you described is valid from well... public service perspective but sadly has no standing in big (gaming and other) bussiness. The sad reality of my work is - time is everything and it costs big money.

You got deadlines on deadlines on top of deadlines. You're always pretty stressed out coz something can go wrong at any time during development (and it usually goes wrong several times during the whole making new game cycle) and there is always some corporate dude above you with a watch at his hand and calculator in the other saying to you this is not acceptable, doing this / fixing this will cost us thousands / sometimes millions of dollars coz it will delay us for a week, two, maybe a month. If it's not game breaking - move on, fix it later with a patch post release or not (if its a really minor thing). And dont get me started on "crunch time" which starts like 6 months before the game release deadline. You can kiss goodbye your family and friends for that time, coz there going to be only work and sleeping for you, especially if you're a lower level employee or better yet an intern.

Making games was always my dream and it was great at the begining (late 90) when there was a lot of small studios with chill people and there were no hard deadlines, people wanted to make the best game possible and release it "when it's ready" but as time passed and small companies were bought out by big corporations this changed 360 degree. Now there is just bussiness, corporation culture where you're rewarded only when you think in line with the corporation - so how to make the game as fast as possible and at the same time meet the sales quote set by the managment (bigger and bigger with every financially successful game you make) who has no idea about making games but is amazingly good with a calculator in hand or with Excel spreadsheet nowadays.

Anyway, nowadays when somebody asks me if she/he should study making games and work in that industry i say.... fuck no. Work anywhere just not in the gaming industry; it's a totally soul crushing experience and it's not worth it.

/rant

 

[Juxtapose]

(and indeed my comments about the intern were just silly jovial solutions, not actual business advice),

As an intern working for an independent feature film co., I was asked to do financial work and tax credit applications with no prior experience or understanding of such things what-so-ever. I was also told that I'd be expected to go get cocaine for their actors.

@Immortal There are many similarities between your experience in the game industry, and mine in television production. The entertainment industry as a whole is "soul crushing," if you ask me.

 

[Swindle]

Wow I asked on Twitter to Jonathan Anderson at NRS if they'd even fix the horrid clipping glitch with Kahn's luggage tag on one of his skins (surely just a simple fix - can't they spare an intern during a lunch break?) and this is the answer I got

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1411785836283191300

NRS - We’re not satisfied until you’re not satisfied.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Like, we literally JUST had a hype tournament for MKX. I can't wait to hear that crap about mk11. We miss breakaway so much! Krushing blows were so much better!

Only who genuinelly enjoyed these mechanics or mk11 are going to say this, stop generalizing everyone's opinion based on your own experience lmao.

i don't care about kb and surely think it was poorly executed in mk11.

 

[Agilaz]

I feel like a lot of behind the scenes bullshit happened that led to them being silent for so long, only to abruptly go "we're done kthxbye". For me this is kinda the breaking point with NRS tbh, I've been a fan of the franchise since I played MK1 on the Genesis, but now it's being a treated like an abused cash cow and I'm not sure I want a part in that.

I mostly loved MK11 (though admittedly I had days I hated it), and when they said it would be their "longest supported title by far", I was actually expecting >2 years of support, not 18-ish months followed by a stretching silent void. If their next game is Injustice (or plays like it) I'm probably skipping it. If MK12 ever happens, I'll probably pick it up after a year and a half when support dies again, so at least I won't be spending a ton of money again on a game that just gets dropped like that.

Might give Strive a chance now.

 

[Mr.Khen]

Love this franchise, hate MK11 - good riddance - sorry for those who are sad about it,

Don't expect much from this cash grabbing corporate machine WB,
you will not be getting a game with long term support like SFV and Tekken from NRS as long as they're under WB.
Their business module is about how things look more than how they feel. until sales drop and they move on to the next project, it seems to be working for them, that goes alongside saying one thing and meaning the exact opposite hence "longer support" or "mk11 is FAR from done" etc...
they could take the long term support route* but I think taking calculated risks is not within their culture.

Well, at least they are nailing the animated movies, that's already something...

Someone mentioned MK11 has surpassed MKX support by comparing the PAID content we "got"

to start with - MKX variations mostly meant something, you actually had a deep playstyle to explore with each character - I consider that way more content vs a b.s story expansion without taking into consideration fan feedback - like.. at all.. MKX actually had better patching and support all around...


don't hate me for my opinion please, it's just that...

 

[Marinjuana]

 

[Wrenchfarm]

I feel like a lot of behind the scenes bullshit happened that led to them being silent for so long, only to abruptly go "we're done kthxbye".

Almost certainly. It seems to me like the prolonged silence was the team hedging their bets, knowing that the powers that be wanted to move on but still hoping to do a little more.

I want to know the whole story of what happened internally with WB and NRS. I don't think Boon would have been just shooting his mouth off about breaking the NRS cycle and supporting the game longer if they didn't have a real intention to do so. Seems like the rug was pulled out from under them at some point (I'd be really interested to know when in the process).

Aw well. MK11 was a fun game. I played a ton of it and mostly enjoyed my time in it. Thousands of matches, lots of time in the kyrpt and towers, a lot of fun customizing characters. I don't understand any of the people saying it was a rip off or not worth the price. MK11 delivered more content than any other fighting game I can think of, it was a really well made package on that level.

I'm still very frustrated with NRS's design philosophy and that dampened my enjoyment of MK11. I'll never understand why they are okay with giving a few characters almost every damn tool in the game and massive damage (Liu, Jacquie, Geras) while leaving others with scraps. The disparity was especially clear at launch. I think I would have been a lot more invested in the game if Kotal hadn't been SO clearly dumpster tier on launch. How can they look at a character like launch Liu (great pokes, strong zoning options, bountiful KBs that can be reliably triggered, and easily confirmable combos that do nearly 40%) and launch Kotal (bad or useless buttons like stand 4, no combo routes without a variation locked move, a combo ender would lose the corner, niche KBs you never see etc) and think that's okay? Every game is going to have balance issues, but NRS always seems to be the worst at it.

All that said, I'm looking forward to what they do next. I'd be down for an IJ3 or a weird Marvel/DC fighter or whatever else they come up with. Until then Strive is keeping me nicely entertained.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

WB makes the big decisions, but I doubt they stood behind NRS's figurative shoulder all this time and prevented them from modifying numbers that don't even require a separate patch - this was the selling point mentioned before release, that NRS could just update their own server and that will change stuff like frame data.

They just did not care, which is most glaring in how useless so many of the custom abilities are, as they were left in the exact same state as they were on release. A trend which will continue with whatever their next game is going to be.

 

[Immortal]

WB makes the big decisions, but I doubt they stood behind NRS's figurative shoulder all this time and prevented them from modifying numbers that don't even require a separate patch - this was the selling point mentioned before release, that NRS could just update their own server and that will change stuff like frame data.

They just did not care, which is most glaring in how useless so many of the custom abilities are, as they were left in the exact same state as they were on release. A trend which will continue with whatever their next game is going to be.

Again... this is not how things work..... Let me put this into a simple conversation:

Some NRS dudes: lets patch some frame data (server side), this will take our QA team like 5 days at launch brakes
Some other NRS dudes: but but we only can do Playstation and Xbox version; PC is done by QLOC and Switch ... i dont even remember. We need ATT permission, coz neither QLOC or that Switch company works for free... Okay lets go to our managment so they can ask somebody from ATT for permission.
NRS managment: This will not work, they wont agree, there is no money to make here... MK11 is done... but fine lets ask them
NRS managment to ATT: Can we do a small patch for MK 11 for all platforms?
WB/ATT: How much we gonna make out of it?
NRS managment: Nothing.... we actually have to pay QLOC and other company to port it to PC and Switch on top of time of our employees... Community wants it!
WB/ATT: Commun... what? No, piss off.

End of conversation.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I was talking about what NRS chose to patch over the whole life of the game. You know, when they actually did put out patches.

Management makes all the big decisions (like patching and support manpower allocations), but NRS is not a goddamn saint whose hands were tied.

 

[Immortal]

Never said anybody was saint. I just pointed out that things are usually more complicated then most people think and always cost money. Also to be fair competitive community is never happy and always want "one more patch" no matter how many they released before and what they changed. It's just how it is.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

That sure sounds like making excuses for a corporation, while also taking a side-swipe at the community. It's true, but comes across like that - it's just how it is.

And yes, all of this does make business sense, just like it does to crunch workers until you replace them with warm bodies. Already we see people going 'oh I cannot wait to get hyped up for the next NRS game', so, more of the same will follow.

 

[Immortal]

I work in this industry and i've been saying for years now - it's terrible, like seriously bad (you can read my rant about in another thread here). No excuses.

That being said you have to look at things how they're and not how you wish they were. Want a change? Vote with your wallet, if millions will follow you it will for sure happen, if not... well... "so more of the same will follow". That is the sad reality of pretty much any big bussines.

 

[Swindle]

Again... this is not how things work..... Let me put this into a simple conversation:

Some NRS dudes: lets patch some frame data (server side), this will take our QA team like 5 days at launch brakes
Some other NRS dudes: but but we only can do Playstation and Xbox version; PC is done by QLOC and Switch ... i dont even remember. We need ATT permission, coz neither QLOC or that Switch company works for free... Okay lets go to our managment so they can ask somebody from ATT for permission.
NRS managment: This will not work, they wont agree, there is no money to make here... MK11 is done... but fine lets ask them
NRS managment to ATT: Can we do a small patch for MK 11 for all platforms?
WB/ATT: How much we gonna make out of it?
NRS managment: Nothing.... we actually have to pay QLOC and other company to port it to PC and Switch on top of time of our employees... Community wants it!
WB/ATT: Commun... what? No, piss off.

End of conversation.

Just as I’ve been saying since 2015…
PCers are the reason we can’t have anything nice.

 

[Johncage]

WB makes the big decisions, but I doubt they stood behind NRS's figurative shoulder all this time and prevented them from modifying numbers that don't even require a separate patch - this was the selling point mentioned before release, that NRS could just update their own server and that will change stuff like frame data.

They just did not care, which is most glaring in how useless so many of the custom abilities are, as they were left in the exact same state as they were on release. A trend which will continue with whatever their next game is going to be.

The reason they didn't give any of custom abilitys buffs or nerfs before ultimate was becuase people who actually would of wanted them to be buffed or nerfed were focused on competitive variations and after ultimate released they were probably focused on their next game

 

[theotherguy]

There is no current chance

So there's no current chance...

Spoiler

So maybe later on...

Already we see people going 'oh I cannot wait to get hyped up for the next NRS game', so, more of the same will follow.

Because as someone mentioned, NRS sells games. They sold ~8mill+ MK11 & X, probably a touch less with the Injustice games. And they'll almost certainly do the same with the next one too. Unless their next game turns out to be a flop while people are still playing the older games, then maybe they might re-think their strategy.

Tekken 7 sold 8.5mill in 5years. The games that NRS released in that time have sold close to triple that. And we get new games every two years, which you could argue is better than a balance update every other year to keep things fresh, with the downside that the game never really gets a chance to get fleshed out. Regardless of that, the numbers are what it's about.

I'd love to see NRS games live past their "2years play-by date" at majors etc, but at the same time I also can see why they do what they do. That said, it's not going to stop me from playing the game, either until i get bored of NRS gameNext, MK12 comes out, or stop playing games altogether (unlikely the last one will happen anytime soon though!)

 

[NSR]

@Art Lean
out of curiosity, do you remember the specific patch where this glitch was introduced?

 

[Art Lean]

@Art Lean
out of curiosity, do you remember the specific patch where this glitch was introduced?

Not really I’m afraid, possibly summer last year though? I post occasionally over at the Kombatfashion Reddit for sharing customised characters and have spent an unhealthy amount of time going through my creations in great detail looking for ones worthy of a post in the last 18 months and so was very familiar with how skins looked and any glitches they could have had (however I didn’t play about with Kahn’s costumes too often). So I want to say either last summer or towards Autumn but it could have been earlier. I may have an earlier screenshot of the skin on my PS4 when it was fine, as I’ve taken a lot of shots for Kombatfashion that I never posted, but will have to confirm for some kind of vague date reference.

I want to say it appeared around the time the bug was fixed where any skirts, dresses or hanging cloth that fell from below the waist used to vanish on Jade’s pole dance fatality. I seemed to notice the new bug around the same time I noticed that one was fixed.

Edited to add - no screenshots of my own I'm afraid. But if it's accurate to the time it was taken, and if this bug occurs on other systems (can anyone confirm), this person uploaded a screenshot of their Kahn skins in June 2020 and the 'luggage tag' is in its correct location:

https://i.redd.it/c4wftj81ep451.png

Original source: https://www.reddit.com/r/KombatFashion/comments/h8ajcd

 

[Wigy]

Again... this is not how things work..... Let me put this into a simple conversation:

Some NRS dudes: lets patch some frame data (server side), this will take our QA team like 5 days at launch brakes
Some other NRS dudes: but but we only can do Playstation and Xbox version; PC is done by QLOC and Switch ... i dont even remember. We need ATT permission, coz neither QLOC or that Switch company works for free... Okay lets go to our managment so they can ask somebody from ATT for permission.
NRS managment: This will not work, they wont agree, there is no money to make here... MK11 is done... but fine lets ask them
NRS managment to ATT: Can we do a small patch for MK 11 for all platforms?
WB/ATT: How much we gonna make out of it?
NRS managment: Nothing.... we actually have to pay QLOC and other company to port it to PC and Switch on top of time of our employees... Community wants it!
WB/ATT: Commun... what? No, piss off.

End of conversation.

So why did they do about 10 patches that changed absolutely fuck all. Im sorry but with how well this game sold i cant see them squabbling over the pricing of the work to do some frame data changes.

We got patches where they basically just changed health values.

Ive heard the same from my friends in game development and dont doubt its a huge factor but it doesnt add up to me. Theres money to be made long term by instilling good will in the gamer base and keeping players engaged.

I will agree the community always wants another patch.. its absolutely true but this game has taken the piss. We have got ineffective breadcrumb patches. We have day 1 hitbox issues still allll over the place.

It is sad that game development has had the well posioned with finance stuff. I just expect better- many smaller developers deliver that. NRS has a winning franchise thats a huge cashcow. I wish they'd just take their product to a new company if its stifiling them this badly.

No shots at you by the way, i understand you come from a more informed place. Just doesnt add up how they can implement a million useless tower changes, HP whatever and then when it comes to changing a number on block advantage etc its suddenly unfeasible

 

[chud_munson]

So why did they do about 10 patches that changed absolutely fuck all. Im sorry but with how well this game sold i cant see them squabbling over the pricing of the work to do some frame data changes.

We got patches where they basically just changed health values.

Ive heard the same from my friends in game development and dont doubt its a huge factor but it doesnt add up to me. Theres money to be made long term by instilling good will in the gamer base and keeping players engaged.

I will agree the community always wants another patch.. its absolutely true but this game has taken the piss. We have got ineffective breadcrumb patches. We have day 1 hitbox issues still allll over the place.

It is sad that game development has had the well posioned with finance stuff. I just expect better- many smaller developers deliver that. NRS has a winning franchise thats a huge cashcow. I wish they'd just take their product to a new company if its stifiling them this badly.

No shots at you by the way, i understand you come from a more informed place. Just doesnt add up how they can implement a million useless tower changes, HP whatever and then when it comes to changing a number on block advantage etc its suddenly unfeasible

I'm not a game dev specifically, but am a software engineer for a gigantic tech company. It's funny how companies scale up when it comes to how they decide what gets done. Smaller companies tend to fix stuff faster and fix the stuff that feels immediately annoying to people because they have fewer layers of red tape to wade through. They kinda just go do it. Once a company gets to a certain size though, you've got legions of product managers and other MBA types that gatekeep what goes to production. This isn't always a bad thing, it just means teams really have to justify in dollars why they're doing work.

Take the balance patch for example. To do this work, people need to explain to a PM why releasing a balance patch or hitbox fixes is a good cost/outcome tradeoff. The reality is most customers of MK11 are unlikely to stop playing the game and buying things because they're so irritated by hitbox or balance issues. A vast majority probably can't even explain whether the game is balanced or not. The people that it will make a difference for are competitive players who are likely in the minority, and are the ones who are the most discerning, so there's a very real chance you go through all the work and they're pissed anyway. So you have to justify why the dev/test/QA/release work for NRS as well as the third party companies that handle ports for features that affect a minority of the user base are higher in priority than fixing stuff like tower problems which, let's be real, is where a huge portion of MK11 players likely spend their time.

On top of all that shit, there are sometimes implementation details that make it harder. When companies get big their teams start to divvy up into subteams, and it might happen to be the case that the subteam that handles this is swamped with other stuff. Subteams are not always delineated by responsibility cleanly either. Sometimes teams own code for no other reason than a different team doesn't have the bandwidth to own it. As far as the change itself, while the game may look good the underlying code might be a mess and very difficult to change without non-obvious knock-on effects elsewhere. That's not uncommon for products that are released on tight turnarounds. The casualty of moving fast tends to be hygiene because it's extremely difficult to explain to a PM why we should take extra time to make code look good.

That's all to say that while it's possible NRS just truly doesn't give a shit, it's much, much, much more likely that there's organizational pain that stands in the way of what any given NRS employee would do if they called all the shots. And while that's sometimes bad, it's not always bad. People tend to focus on stuff about the game they don't like, but keep in mind that the game could have been much worse, and people demanding justification for why work is being done can save a product from really awful fates.

 

[Wigy]

@chud_munson

That all makes sense but i still dont get why they can make tonnes of ineffectual changes and not make simple balance ones, if theyre already going through all the bullshit admin and nonsense why not do that along with.

The few balances changes they made were also extremely minor for the most part, if you know you cant get stuff out why are you taking extremely conservative options. None of what ive read would explain why if they are already pushing a patch they couldnt include more.

Game development needs a shakeup.
I think its shortsighted to not seen that good patch support helps with community engagement for the game. Not just for pros, the term casual gets thrown around a lot but its extremely widely encompassing. I think it would be very well recieved for at least close to the majority of the gamebase

 

[chud_munson]

@chud_munson

That all makes sense but i still dont get why they can make tonnes of ineffectual changes and not make simple balance ones, if theyre already going through all the bullshit admin and nonsense why not do that along with.

The few balances changes they made were also extremely minor for the most part, if you know you cant get stuff out why are you taking extremely conservative options. None of what ive read would explain why if they are already pushing a patch they couldnt include more.

Game development needs a shakeup.
I think its shortsighted to not seen that good patch support helps with community engagement for the game. Not just for pros, the term casual gets thrown around a lot but its extremely widely encompassing. I think it would be very well recieved for at least close to the majority of the gamebase

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing that I think it could be a good idea for them to rethink their strategy there. I think it's just that there's often more than meets the eye in terms of why companies do things. For example, there's stuff my team owns where customer feedback has been some flavor of "this is a simple fix, I can't believe you can't just go do it". The reason we don't though is some mix of: it's harder than it seems/it doesn't affect enough of the user base/it's not aligned with our long term vision/some other completely political reason. Now, each of those factors doesn't always have a numerical value assigned to it, and the value that is assigned comes from stuff like how good a job someone does to vouch for the change, how a PM is feeling on a particular day, how much data is collected about how valuable it is, etc., and changes in those factors can move the slider in a way where the thing ends up getting prioritized in a parallel but nearby universe.

Again, I don't disagree that they probably got stuff wrong, but I do disagree with some of the characterizations out there that NRS is lazy/doesn't care, and WB is a soulless overlord that would murder every MK fan out there if it meant getting a nickel for each. The reality of business and software is often more subtle than that.