IDGAF Throws Are Too Strong

[scrubjesus111]

@Malec Micro-ducking is the way. Never mash poke or d2 when you’re really certain they’re going to throw - duck the throw and get a full combo instead.

 

[Pyrosis]

The risk/reward of throwing often in neutral...

Benefits for attacker, throwing:
13% damage
They tech wrong, setting up the need to go for another throw for 30% later
Positioning. Throw into/out of the corner
Sometimes you might eat their poke (much less likely currently, and blocking a poke now is much better than throwing a poke)

Benefits for the defender:
Teching a throw resets neutral/ends the attacking pressure
Ducking/jumping a throw leads to a full combo. Around 35% for most characters.
Down 2 KB, leading to 45%-50% for most characters
Both these outcomes can set up more Krushing Blows with several characters who build them based on number of special moves hit
Both these outcomes are significantly worse for you if they also have Fatal Blow ready, making both unbreakable damage


For the low, low cost of calling ONE throw attempt and ducking/jumping you will get at worst TRIPLE the amount of damage they get for landing the throw. They need to land three throws to even come close to equaling the damage the defender gets for one duck/jump into combo.

 

[Marlow]

For the low, low cost of calling ONE throw attempt and ducking/jumping you will get at worst TRIPLE the amount of damage they get for landing the throw. They need to land three throws to even come close to equaling the damage the defender gets for one duck/jump into combo.

Good breakdown. I wish more people did this type of analysis when looking at risk/reward of moves.

 

[Gaxkang]

The risk/reward of throwing often in neutral...

Benefits for attacker, throwing:
13% damage
They tech wrong, setting up the need to go for another throw for 30% later
Positioning. Throw into/out of the corner
Sometimes you might eat their poke (much less likely currently, and blocking a poke now is much better than throwing a poke)

Benefits for the defender:
Teching a throw resets neutral/ends the attacking pressure
Ducking/jumping a throw leads to a full combo. Around 35% for most characters.
Down 2 KB, leading to 45%-50% for most characters
Both these outcomes can set up more Krushing Blows with several characters who build them based on number of special moves hit
Both these outcomes are significantly worse for you if they also have Fatal Blow ready, making both unbreakable damage


For the low, low cost of calling ONE throw attempt and ducking/jumping you will get at worst TRIPLE the amount of damage they get for landing the throw. They need to land three throws to even come close to equaling the damage the defender gets for one duck/jump into combo.

The D2 KB is thrown into the throw meta to try to throw a bone to people in it. and sure you can jump...but without a predictable opponent it's all guessing anyways. Rolling dice.
But the game does encourage mashing D2, so...even outside of throw situation, since it also can apply to attempts to jail. And more perhaps...

I myself even after playing for quite some time, the mash D2 thing still isn't something I naturally do.

The throw meta exists because of the basic poke, block, high etc system they got going on plus the damage plus any KB that may be involved which also had to do with how throw breaks work. I recall in a tournament in the past amongst top players somebody getting thrown 3 or 4 times in a row heh

I'd also add not everybody may be good at doing a 50% combo (heh) if available...thus reserving such damage to folks who are jiggy with the NRS input system and other particular features. Which is perhaps among the biggest things for anyone to try to get used to coming from perhaps any other fighting type game.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

The D2 KB is thrown into the throw meta to try to throw a bone to people in it. and sure you can jump...but without a predictable opponent it's all guessing anyways. Rolling dice.
But the game does encourage mashing D2, so...even outside of throw situation, since it also can apply to attempts to jail. And more perhaps...

D2 KBs have nothing to do with the throw meta, as they can be used to punish multiple kinds of whiffs.

Just standing up and whiff punishing is the preferred way of punishing a throw. D2 KB is only going to work once a match anyway.

And nobody good just sits there mashing d2. If you can't beat people who are doing that, you just need to get better at the game.

 

[Gaxkang]

D2 KBs have nothing to do with the throw meta, as they can be used to punish multiple kinds of whiffs.

Just standing up and whiff punishing is the preferred way of punishing a throw. D2 KB is only going to work once a match anyway.

And nobody good just sits there mashing d2. If you can't beat people who are doing that, you just need to get better at the game.

People either go for jails or throws, and D2 KB hits the throw...and could hit the jail too when it doesn't work well enough. Especially with original complaints of trying to jail with highs.

D2 KB can lead to a lotta damage...it's not the only damage going on in the fight so heh, it adds to it.

Fights can turn very quickly off some wacky stuff in MK11. Can people just mashing D2 be beaten? Yah, but it makes for a chuckle just seeing the damage and scenario play out from it, and from release players were encouraged to mash D2 in different situations, just in case it worked too.

But a mashed D2 can lead to great things. So if the person has more under their than just mashing D2...

 

[CrimsonShadow]

People either go for jails or throws, and D2 KB hits the throw...and could hit the jail too when it doesn't work well enough. Especially with original complaints of trying to jail with highs.

If you're really fishing that way you're going to end up getting blown up by anyone who knows how to play the game.

Like, if you eat a poke and your next thought is consistently "Lemme d2 in case they are slow on the followup" I hope I come across you some day in KL for the free points

 

[Gaxkang]

If you're really fishing that way you're going to end up getting blown up by anyone who knows how to play the game.

Like, if you eat a poke and your next thought is consistently "Lemme d2 in case they are slow on the followup" I hope I come across you some day in KL for the free points

It has seemed like a thing in online play since the beginning. Jailing is supposed to be better these days....but originally, plenty o' complaints.

Plus one has to include the D1 throw thing, which was and continues to be. Which also encouraged mashing D2.

and sure if after eating a poke someone mashes D2 it shouldn't work, but it can. And it can lead to sweetness or even a win.

And since it's online, the assumption isn't just about say, someone being slow.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

It has seemed like a thing in online play since the beginning. Jailing is supposed to be better these days....but originally, plenty o' complaints.

Plus one has to include the D1 throw thing, which was and continues to be. Which also encouraged mashing D2.

and sure if after eating a poke someone mashes D2 it shouldn't work, but it can. And it can lead to sweetness or even a win.

And since it's online, the assumption isn't just about say, someone being slow.

Ok — well if that’s your attitude, then I encourage you to go enter an online tournament and just mash d2 a lot and see how far you get (all the tournaments are online right now, so this is your best shot). And let me know how it works out

 

[Pyrosis]

@Gaxkang, no offense, seems like someone who plays the game a bit more casually or at a lower level of competition than the rest of us want or desire. Nothing wrong with that inherently, but commenting tactics which seem to work for you at these types of opponents really does nothing in your favor when the conversation is about optimized and heavily competitive games. Something that I've noticed pretty often.

If you're mashing D2 against someone who has got their jailing consistently down, which is... insanely easy now with the amount of plus frames pokes have, you're going to get blown up at the level of competition most of us play at.

Just for an example, let me tell you how easy it would be for someone who picks up on you mashing D2 on their plus frames to punish you for committing to a D2:

Poke hits... wait, and hold crouch without blocking
Now you're eating a full combo because mashing D2 is a good idea.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

@Gaxkang, no offense, seems like someone who plays the game a bit more casually or at a lower level of competition than the rest of us want or desire. Nothing wrong with that inherently, but commenting tactics which seem to work for you at these types of opponents really does nothing in your favor when the conversation is about optimized and heavily competitive games. Something that I've noticed pretty often.

If you're mashing D2 against someone who has got their jailing consistently down, which is... insanely easy now with the amount of plus frames pokes have, you're going to get blown up at the level of competition most of us play at.

Just for an example, let me tell you how easy it would be for someone who picks up on you mashing D2 on their plus frames to punish you for committing to a D2:

Poke hits... wait, and hold crouch without blocking
Now you're eating a full combo because mashing D2 is a good idea.

Bro the game is completely random, and lag prevents any kind of consistency or precision, even offline so you might as well mash.

heh

 

[Gaxkang]

Ok — well if that’s your attitude, then I encourage you to go enter an online tournament and just mash d2 a lot and see how far you get (all the tournaments are online right now, so this is your best shot). And let me know how it works out

Hasn't everybody been participating in KL which is an online tournament sorta thing?

Or are tournaments made to a different standard, filtered differently?

It would remain my example I pointed out, a top offline player tourny action where someone got thrown like 3 or 4 times in a row and this being seeing as hype. The question to be pondered is what put such fear in the player's soul that it happened? What was it about the fighting system?

 

[SHAOLIN]

Bro, what's up with the emotes?

 

[Gaxkang]

@Gaxkang, no offense, seems like someone who plays the game a bit more casually or at a lower level of competition than the rest of us want or desire. Nothing wrong with that inherently, but commenting tactics which seem to work for you at these types of opponents really does nothing in your favor when the conversation is about optimized and heavily competitive games. Something that I've noticed pretty often.

If you're mashing D2 against someone who has got their jailing consistently down, which is... insanely easy now with the amount of plus frames pokes have, you're going to get blown up at the level of competition most of us play at.

Just for an example, let me tell you how easy it would be for someone who picks up on you mashing D2 on their plus frames to punish you for committing to a D2:

Poke hits... wait, and hold crouch without blocking
Now you're eating a full combo because mashing D2 is a good idea.

I've used the term "semi-casual" heh. Different qualities of the game I'm still not particularly used to (due to how NRS makes things) but I manage to beat different people with basic combos and old fashioned mix-up's. Like, i'd beat someone who can do longer combos who clearly practiced that. But I can lose too.
I once played a top player online and I could tell they were more advanced-like but at the same time I wasn't blown by away by like, amazing gameplay. I almost got a round heh, I didn't get steamrolled totally.

I comment less as to heavy offline competition and more just practical play the main audience of the game will run into every day.

But your information are you guaranteeing it at various online qualities? So if it's 200 ms, or unstable, it'll hold up every single time? and it can be less than 200 to still feel off. online qualities can be interesting.
Main focus is online playing.
I still find myself doing a lot of D1 throw, but sometimes i put some jailing attempts in....D1 throw still tends to lead to damage more often than trying to jail, tho can get hit by a D2 KB at which point have to change up. But the system has encouraged that whole thing that since release....D1 throw, D2 KB etc.

If anyone is too predictable with something in this that is one thing...but the thing to beware of something more random, unknown, and how much damage can happen from that.

In terms of the offline system it should work better in certain ways such as jailing off high's as you mention, but it wasn't always so in the game system which encouraged certain types of play which was exacerbated online as well.

 

[Gaxkang]

Bro, what's up with the emotes?

Don't want them to go to waste, right?

 

[Pyrosis]

I'm really not certain as to what point you're putting forth or if I really need to comment on the ones that I... guess you're making. Does high ms make things like random D2s happen sometimes? Like.. yeah sure, I guess. I'm not certain what this has to do with playing the game efficiently though. You seem like someone who preaches anecdotal evidence as fact or something, and like I said I'm not convinced that you're really making a point here other than ... lag happens sometimes.

You're saying that D1 into throw is more reliable for damage than jailing because of random D2? Like.. You're just not jailing properly. Jailing is a much, much better method for accumulating damage and pressure, this is not a subjective opinion.

If you're getting blown up by D2 mash you've just not gotten good enough at confirming into a jailing string off your poke.

I did my best to make a discussion between us off of that, no offense again, mostly incoherent mess you posted.

 

[Pyrosis]

If you're playing games consistently at 200ms you're not really playing the same game the rest of us are.

 

[Gaxkang]

I'm really not certain as to what point you're putting forth or if I really need to comment on the ones that I... guess you're making. Does high ms make things like random D2s happen sometimes? Like.. yeah sure, I guess. I'm not certain what this has to do with playing the game efficiently though. You seem like someone who preaches anecdotal evidence as fact or something, and like I said I'm not convinced that you're really making a point here other than ... lag happens sometimes.

You're saying that D1 into throw is more reliable for damage than jailing because of random D2? Like.. You're just not jailing properly. Jailing is a much, much better method for accumulating damage and pressure, this is not a subjective opinion.

If you're getting blown up by D2 mash you've just not gotten good enough at confirming into a jailing string off your poke.

I did my best to make a discussion between us off of that, no offense again, mostly incoherent mess you posted.

The point includes the basic system NRS made, including from release, and also online conditions since a lot of the game is played online and promoted to be played online.

A quick way to consider it is what if there was no D2 KB, why was the D2 KB put in the game? Which is kinda an extension of why KB's are in the game itself.

And yeah D1 throw since release was such a reliable thing folks would call the game D1 Throw Kombat heh, so. People would complain they couldn't jail off highs, and D1 throw just seemed to work...whether the opponent was trying to hit something or just couldn't break the throw since it's a 50/50 chance.
Me myself, I don't try to break throws, I'd just take them. KB's on throws also made just taking throws desirable heh.

And you may not get D2ed when you try to jail, maybe you'll just get poked. Jailing is nice when it works...but people just gotta block to stop that attempt. And then you're supposed to throw instead.

And my point is more than lag...since from release the game system itself was flawed as to jailing. It's supposed to be better now, after 2 go's of fixes.

 

[Gaxkang]

If you're playing games consistently at 200ms you're not really playing the same game the rest of us are.

The average online game will likely be 130-150.....150 possibly becoming 160. Sometimes could become 200ms.

I always try to get lower MS stuff, tho I don't trust that either really heh. Some stuff will never be reactable really, I think.

My advice to people is never assume what you do or see in training mode will always hold up at any MS online.

You may find some folks who suggest MS doesn't matter either, that online is basically like offline.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Summary: The guy has no idea what he’s talking about, but yet talks more than anyone

 

[Deleted member 5032]

Summary: The guy has no idea what he’s talking about, but yet talks more than anyone

2020 in a nutshell, goddamn...

 

[Pyrosis]

Yeah. I'm like. Idk.

Listen, best regards. Good luck. Lol

 

[Gaxkang]

Summary: The guy has no idea what he’s talking about, but yet talks more than anyone

shrugs Until NRS changes, criticisms will repeat...

 

[Gaxkang]

Yeah. I'm like. Idk.

Listen, best regards. Good luck. Lol

Do you remember when the game came out and Kano had just highs? There were lots of complaints. Then later they gave him a good mid to work with (f1).

And I do think practical gameplay, what people will run into is something of interest in this.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

And I do think practical gameplay, what people will run into is something of interest in this.