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F Champ Receives Lifetime Ban, Racism in the FGC/USA, and Other Prevalent Social Discussions

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
The problem with firearms in america is that too much money is involved.
Tabaco causes most deaths and guess why that isnt banned? Money rules the world.
Someone else can't kill YOU with tobacco

Obesity kills most, can't make being fat illegal.

Guns are unique, Crimson is correct in that they are specifically designed to kill.
 

Anarchist_Gib

Shao Kahn main, please your send prayers!
I don't think it's funny at all -- deaths from something not made to cause death can be though of as more incidental. Deaths from something specifically made to kill people are obvious results of what they were designed for.

People die in car accidents, but passenger cars are not made specifically to kill people. They are made to transport people from place to place. Thus the main job of the government is to make sure that they're used for what they were manufactured for.

Firearms will not get you to the office on time. They're not made to clean things or for you to have a little extra enjoyment in your drink. They are manufactured to kill, first and foremost, period.
I've agreed to the express purpose of firearms as tools to kill. You repeated the line absent of the correction I specified, because it takes out of the discussion the most commonplace usage of firearms which is hunting and property protection from pests. The intended function of an object is besides your right to own it. In my time as a pawnbroker I’ve owned katanas, objects clearly designed to kill. Your answer would of course immediately shift back to the numbers of deaths from guns versus katanas, which again would call into relevance the number of deaths from alcohol versus guns incidental or not ( a comment I wholeheartedly reject)

I've mentioned the concepts of DGUs, which even the most EXTREME low figure puts at 67,000 a year of just REPORTED DGU. This is an asininely low figure in my eyes, but is sufficient for the point. I included some specific examples from my experiences(as well as available data earlier in this thread). What would you tell that woman who shot her would-be rapist? What do you say to me for defending myself and my store? Take it? Be a victim? One can never anticipate the intent or capabilities of a perpetrator of violence, someone willing to manifest their disfunction, pain, or cruelty into the world. That woman or I just might have been killed in our respective situations were it not for our capacity to own and reliably access firearms.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I've agreed to the express purpose of firearms as tools to kill. You repeated the line absent of the correction I specified, because it takes out of the discussion the most commonplace usage of firearms which is hunting and property protection from pests. The intended function of an object is besides your right to own it. In my time as a pawnbroker I’ve owned katanas, objects clearly designed to kill. Your answer would of course immediately shift back to the numbers of deaths from guns versus katanas, which again would call into relevance the number of deaths from alcohol versus guns incidental or not ( a comment I wholeheartedly reject)
I disagree with this premise. Your ability to own an object should be tied to its intended purpose.

I also don't agree about guns vs. kitanas being strictly about numbers of current deaths. I'd postulate that there's a lot more in terms of substantive difference -- speed of lethality at ranges, the amount of harm one person can cause in any particular instance with the weapon, how easy it is to conceal, defense, etc.

It's just too easy to kill someone with a gun, too quickly, without the ability for them to do anything about it, and that's why our military uses guns and explosives rather than kitanas. They are the most efficient killing machines we've designed.
 

Anarchist_Gib

Shao Kahn main, please your send prayers!
I disagree with this premise. Your ability to own an object should be tied to its intended purpose.

I also don't agree about guns vs. kitanas being strictly about numbers of current deaths. I'd postulate that there's a lot more in terms of substantive difference -- speed of lethality at ranges, the amount of harm one person can cause in any particular instance with the weapon, how easy it is to conceal, defense, etc.

It's just too easy to kill someone with a gun, too quickly, without the ability for them to do anything about it, and that's why our military uses guns and explosives rather than kitanas. They are the most efficient killing machines we've designed.
Nothing about the second portion? That’d be the second time I’ve brought up DGU to you specifically with the topic being completely ignored, even when brought up in such a personal context.

We have a fundamental philosophical disagreement here(no duh but still) The katana versus gun analogy is so relevant for me because I believe in the universality of principles, because systems of morality/ethics work best when applied as universally as possible. Your perspective strikes me as fundamentally predicated on a subjective preference as opposed to data or objective principle, which is partly why your goals on this issue will never be realized when the face of your opposition stands on many layers of principle from voluntarism, conservatism, preservationism, and so forth. You can quote “isms” back at me of course, but none would have the unilateral focus on this topic as the before mentioned groups.

I am VERY familiar with many of the core problems in relation to the gun violence issue, I mentioned some stepping stones that would help earlier in this thread. I’ve been in the same room as the director of the Missouri branch of the ATF, talking to a group of us FFLs about the particular difficulties they experience and upcoming attempts to mitigate said issues. I’ve had customers who’ve committed suicide with the product I sold them. I’ve been under investigation to ensure I wasn’t knowingly involved in straw purchases. I could go on for days about the horror stories that have come my way. But I find the solutions people propose those problems (and to be clear, I’ll never represent those things as NOT problems that need addressing) to be most often shortsighted, ill-informed, or outlandish.
 

Anarchist_Gib

Shao Kahn main, please your send prayers!
I see that my conversation has now taken up multiple pages, so this will be my last input on the matter to allow other issues brought up and focused on, as my focus and interests are admittedly rather singular.

Since it seems to me that this is the most viewed thread we've had on the site in at least a couple years I'd like a couple things known:

A) Anyone who has a question in relation to firearms or legislation can feel free to reach out to me anytime. I have extensive experience and if I can't answer it personally I'll direct you to the proper resources.
B) I recommend EVERYONE take a CHL or LTC class regardless of intent to carry or even own a firearm. With this will come a good understanding of your respective state's current laws as well as many generally helpful concepts such as situational awareness.
C) I respect everyone whose conversed with me on the subject, and am always willing to have further discussion. Furthermore, I hope everyone here has been well in the face of Covid and give my thoughts to anyone impacted by the storms hitting us on the Gulf.

The opinions I've voiced in this thread are my own and not necessarily reflective of establishments in which I've conducted pawnbroker and FFL services.

Now back to lurking....
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
I don't think making it easier for people to suicide is a good thing, either. I don't like the idea of someone who might be depressed or entertaining suicidal thoughts owning or keeping something in their home that is specifically made to kill people.

20k gun homicides is also not a good thing.

Nor 100,000k firearms injuries a year.

The entire point is that making these things easier makes the issue worse.
Good point.
 

ChaosTheory

A fat woman came into the shoe store today...
Bruh what in the actual hell are you talking about? .
Aside from the "nuh uh", that post wasn't directed at you. You and I disagree on everything but I don't see you in it for the gifs. The youngblood, though, is a different story. He's playing shirts vs skins.

But you did give me a "nuh uh" there. It's lost now, but let's give it another go regarding Jacob Blake.

He's another black man who got shot by police for no good fucking reason.
Tackle him. Taze him. Pin him down. Stop him before he walks all the way around the van. Do fucking anything except wait until he gives you an excuse to shoot him.
But no. Here we are again, blaming the minority because the cop can't do his job.
- Blake had a knife

- Officers tried to apprehend Blake, he resisted

- Officers tried to subdue Blake with tazers

- Blake continued resisting and wrestled around with police while they tried to hold him down

- Blake broke free and started walking towards the driver's side door while the cops ordered him to stop with weapons drawn

- Blake gets to the door and reaches in while a cop is pulling him by the shirt trying to stop him from going in


All of that shit before he was shot. Does that meet your above criteria? Did these cops "do fucking anything except wait until he gives you an excuse to shoot him"?

Or am I just blaming the minority again for the cops' fuck up?

There's more to add, but I get the feeling it'll distract.
 

ItsYaBoi

Noob
Aside from the "nuh uh", that post wasn't directed at you. You and I disagree on everything but I don't see you in it for the gifs. The youngblood, though, is a different story. He's playing shirts vs skins.

But you did give me a "nuh uh" there. It's lost now, but let's give it another go regarding Jacob Blake.



- Blake had a knife

- Officers tried to apprehend Blake, he resisted

- Officers tried to subdue Blake with tazers

- Blake continued resisting and wrestled around with police while they tried to hold him down

- Blake broke free and started walking towards the driver's side door while the cops ordered him to stop with weapons drawn

- Blake gets to the door and reaches in while a cop is pulling him by the shirt trying to stop him from going in


All of that shit before he was shot. Does that meet your above criteria? Did these cops "do fucking anything except wait until he gives you an excuse to shoot him"?

Or am I just blaming the minority again for the cops' fuck up?

There's more to add, but I get the feeling it'll distract.
And all that justifies 7 shots in the back from 1 yard away? Kek. Stay clowning boomer. Cops don’t get to act as fucking judge, jury and executioners you clown. “B b b but the cop was afraid” that’s part of the job of being a cop, it’s one of the risks when you sign up. Unless you’re inadvertently trying to say that cops lives have a higher value from the off and WHENEVER they’re in fear they should just fucking unload? Seriously, stop with the boot tasting.

Good to see Kyle Shittenhouse charged. He crossed state lines with a weapon that wasn’t his/not old enough to use, in order to ‘protect property’ that wasn’t his to defend. It’s pretty obvious that he was going there to stoke the fires and cause shit. Utter scum.
 

ItsYaBoi

Noob
To anybody who claims that systemic racism doesn't exist in the US, explain this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/25/realestate/blacks-minorities-appraisals-discrimination.html

"The Hortons live just minutes from the Ortega River, in a predominantly white neighborhood of 1950s homes that tend to sell for $350,000 to $550,000. They had expected their home to appraise for around $450,000, but the appraiser felt differently, assigning a value of $330,000. Ms. Horton, who is Black, immediately suspected discrimination.

The couple’s bank agreed that the value was off and ordered a second appraisal. But before the new appraiser could arrive, Ms. Horton, a lawyer, began an experiment: She took all family photos off the mantle. Instead, she hung up a series of oil paintings of Mr. Horton, who is white, and his grandparents that had been in storage. Books by Zora Neale Hurston and Toni Morrison were taken off the shelves, and holiday photo cards sent by friends were edited so that only those showing white families were left on display. On the day of the appraisal, Ms. Horton took the couple’s 6-year-old son on a shopping trip to Target, and left Mr. Horton alone at home to answer the door.

The new appraiser gave their home a value of $465,000 — a more than 40 percent increase from the first appraisal."

Now, appraisal prices can differ obviously, but by that big a fucking percentage? That is some bullshit, and means that it is a direct result of the changes that they made - effectively having to 'deblack' their house.
 
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Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
Aside from the "nuh uh", that post wasn't directed at you. You and I disagree on everything but I don't see you in it for the gifs. The youngblood, though, is a different story. He's playing shirts vs skins.

But you did give me a "nuh uh" there. It's lost now, but let's give it another go regarding Jacob Blake.



- Blake had a knife

- Officers tried to apprehend Blake, he resisted

- Officers tried to subdue Blake with tazers

- Blake continued resisting and wrestled around with police while they tried to hold him down

- Blake broke free and started walking towards the driver's side door while the cops ordered him to stop with weapons drawn

- Blake gets to the door and reaches in while a cop is pulling him by the shirt trying to stop him from going in


All of that shit before he was shot. Does that meet your above criteria? Did these cops "do fucking anything except wait until he gives you an excuse to shoot him"?

Or am I just blaming the minority again for the cops' fuck up?

There's more to add, but I get the feeling it'll distract.
Nope. There were still four of them, and they still let him walk around the van. If four cops not only can't subdue one guy without shooting him, but will literally give him the walking room they need to shoot and say "but we tried everything else!", they shouldn't be cops. Period.
This is their fault.
You can spin it whatever way you want to.
That's not going to change.
 

trufenix

bye felicia
I mean this in a genuine way, did any of those countries have as many firearms as the USA? Or even Texas alone? Was the right to own firearms as valued in those countries as it is here?
Do you think firearms last forever? Do you even know the shelf life of a gun? What they cost or where they are acquired? Is there a magic gun repair shop that all the illegal gun owners in america go to when they pass them on to their illegal gun owning children? There are FAR more important questions than trying to paint america's gun problem as somehow unique from ALL the other identical gun problems other countries have squashed.

Here are some far more relevant questions that those countries asked, AND answered: Do you think if the production of firearms, sale of firearms, or even USE of firearms was more heavily regulated, taxed, or simply prosecuted when they are involved in illegal activity that the number of guns in this country would go down? Perhaps the number of users? Perhaps the number of deaths?

And then they did it. And guess what. The numbers went down. Here we do nothing, and the numbers have literally never stopped going up. Coincidence?
 
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Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
I see a lot of "system racism" coming from prominent liberals.

"She can't speak any English"

"Get that illegal alien off the stage"

"Seriously, fuck this bitch"

"FLOTUS is a foreigner"
How on Earth does Melania Trump have anything to do with the point he was making or the source he was citing? Who are these prominent liberals? The same ones you told me two months ago were on the same toxic level as Karl Rove, the Fox News talking heads, and the rest of the right-wing/conservative propaganda team, but couldn't provide me an example outside of "the woman who founded BLM is a Marxist"? Stop. We're not doing this "your point/topic is invalid because THESE people said this and that's more important" game.

All of this going in circles shit with you guys is getting so old, but I'mma stay here with my coffee and my handy dandy bullshit-o-meter until I am dust and bones :coffee: .
 

Pangolin-man

My trusty sidekick is not amused!
I see a lot of "system racism" coming from prominent liberals.

"She can't speak any English"

"Get that illegal alien off the stage"

"Seriously, fuck this bitch"

"FLOTUS is a foreigner"

You quoting a few unsourced anecdotes does not relate to the systemic racism African American people have to deal with this in this country. The logical fallacies, unlike the Force, are strong with this one. Your red herrings and whataboutisms are relentless. By the way, I noticed you didn't address the point about the history of politics in American sports from me and several others.
 

ItsYaBoi

Noob
I see a lot of "system racism" coming from prominent liberals.

"She can't speak any English"

"Get that illegal alien off the stage"

"Seriously, fuck this bitch"

"FLOTUS is a foreigner"
Hahaha, well done on ignoring everything else in that post and cherry picking one sentence to make an unrelated point.

There are three things that you’ve failed to do in this thread:

1. Give us examples of people on the left who are as toxic as people on the right.

2. Disprove systemic racism in America (I’m pretty sure that earlier ITT it was you claiming that America wasn’t racist, correct me if I’m wrong).

3. Respond to the people that have given you examples of how politics have always played a role in American sports.

I guarantee that you still won’t do any of the above. Just drive by after drive by from you. That must be the great discourse that I always hear the right proclaim that they want. Laughable.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
By the way, I noticed you didn't address the point about the history of politics in American sports from me and several others.
I did not address the point because none of you offered any historical evidence of players kneeling during the national anthem and refusing to participate in playoff games to the extent that the games must be canceled.

As egregious as Trump's rhetoric is, democrats' continual depiction of America as racist, sexist, and xenophobic will ensure another four years of Trump because the vast majority of Americans do not believe that America sucks. Unsurprisingly, Biden has not received a boost from the DNC.

1. Give us examples of people on the left who are as toxic as people on the right.
I would say the protestors in Kenosha who are looting local businesses and destroying federal as well as private property are toxic, would you not?

2. Disprove systemic racism in America (I’m pretty sure that earlier ITT it was you claiming that America wasn’t racist, correct me if I’m wrong).
My argument is that America's most severe sins in terms of racism are in the past. Obviously, some residues still exist albeit not to the extent that liberals are claiming. Contrary to the false narrative that many people constantly promote in this thread, America has the most affluent, most successful, and most influential Black people in the world. Obviously, a wage gap between Whites and Blacks exists because Jim Crow laws discriminated against Black people one generation ago. Unlike patronizing and virtue-signaling White liberals, I believe that Black people are as competent as any other racial and ethnic group. The economic and social issues of today will vanish in time by Black people's own merit and diligence as history has already demonstrated.
 
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Pangolin-man

My trusty sidekick is not amused!
The Civil War absolutely wasn't about ending slavery, history has been very kind to President Lincoln in that way, but thank God it happened. But it wasn't a war that broke out because the North finally decided to do the right thing, when Lincoln was a lawyer he once represented a slaver in court even. This isn't comparable to the hypothetical situation of taking guns from people for the right reasons just to fix an injustice.

I understand your point but I don't think that's an entirely fair comparison because a slaver is very obviously in the wrong (to say the absolute least) and worthy of punishment. I think it's way more nuanced to outright punish a lawful gun owner than it is a slaver. Simply owning a gun is a lot different than having a slave, which you obviously know and aren't arguing otherwise.

I'm saying strictly logistically, how do you get ahold of these guns? How do you even get ahold of a fraction of these guns? How without going into every single person's house and searching all their shit? I hope I'm wrong and am just being a pessimist. I think there is too much damage that has been done that can't be undone. There is already too many guns out there. How do you go about abolishing the second amendment? Not why, HOW would it happen? Or does it get simply altered? People talk about limiting how strong of a weapon people can own, when it is almost never the badass guns that do the most damage, so that won't work either.

It is literally all or nothing, and like I said, good fucking luck finding and taking millions of guns when there are more guns in just our top two gun states than most entire countries. It is not realistic to think that a sizable amount of these weapons can be seized, ANY government efforts would barely make a dent, it would probably just provoke the mentally unstable violent people we are worried about. I'm not saying to just say fuck it with any law people would break, I'm saying it would be a lot harder to actually enforce this one, bordering on impossible.

Crimson, I don't disagree with you on the "why". I agree with the thesis behind why doing something is important, or more so would be ideal. I have yet to hear a "how". I'm not arguing with you guys to be right, I'm trying to hear something that can actually be done that makes sense and can actually be pulled off in THIS country. Because I guarantee the disarmed countries did not have nearly the challenge we would have. Like I said, I hear you on the "why", but I'm interested in the "how", not "wouldn't it be nice?" Cause yeah, it would be nice if my kids had a safer world to grow up in.

The Civil War was not about ending slavery?! Did you really just do that? Did you REALLY just do that? I have been watching this thread since day one just watching what people say but I can't let this slide.

Do not, under any circumstances, promote any kind of Lost Cause Mythology about the Civil War. Just don't do it. It is no different than Holocaust Denial, the denial of the Armenian Genocide in Turkey, or the denial of the Rape of Nanking in Japan. Don't pull any economic excuses out of the ass of some Southern apologist pseudohistorian.

The war started after Lincoln was elected and South Carolina seceded from the Union. Then, Fort Sumter was fired upon. South Carolina seceded because of slavery. Need proof? Just look up the myriad of never ending quotes from the Confederates themselves about why the war started.

We ask you to join us, in forming a Confederacy of Slaveholding States.
—South Carolina Legislature, Address of South Carolina to Slaveholding States.[3

Georgia:


The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery.
Mississippi:


Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slaverythe greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun.
South Carolina:


We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.
Texas:


Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated Union... She was received into the confederacy...as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery — the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits — a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time.
In all the non-slave-holding States… the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party… based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color — a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States
all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations
CSA Constitution
Constituent assemblies in the other states of the Confederacy all underscored in their discussions the need to maintain a slave society and economy. Likewise, the right to hold slaves was specifically protected by the constitution of the Confederacy, denying its constituent states the right to outlaw slavery within its territories.[19]



Oh, and let's not forget about the white supremacy and racism parts of the secession too.

Here's Alexander Stephens, the first vice-president of the Confederacy, in reference to the Constitution, secession, and slavery.

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. [Crowd applauded.] This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.



Slaves were even integral to the "common" man fighting for his home. In other words, not just a bunch of aristocrats.

According to the 1860 US census, among the states which attempted to secede, 30.8% of families owned slaves.[20

According to the exhaustive study of the Army of Northern Virginia performed by historian Joseph Glatthaar, about 10% of the 1861 enlistees personally owned slaves (along with more than half of the officers), and very nearly half either owned slaves or lived in a slave-owning household.[22


As someone with a degree in politics and history, the Lost Cause Myth is one of the things that makes my blood boil. I am doing graduate level work right now in history. My main professor is an expert on the Civil War. His specialty is the Black Regiments that fought and died for the North. He was actually a consultant, and was an extra in, the movie Glory. I have personally read and handled some original documents from that time period.

Any serious historian will tell you the Civil War was fought over slavery. There is no ambiguity. Do yourself a favor and actually read what the people who lived at the time wrote. You dishonor the suffering of African Americans as well as the Union soldiers who died by suggesting otherwise.
 

Pangolin-man

My trusty sidekick is not amused!
I did not address the point because none of you offered any historical evidence of players kneeling during the national anthem and refusing to participate in playoff games to the extent that the games must be canceled.

As egregious as Trump's rhetoric is, democrats' continual depiction of America as racist, sexist, and xenophobic will ensure another four years of Trump because the vast majority of Americans do not believe that America sucks. Unsurprisingly, Biden has not received a boost from the DNC.



I would say the protestors in Kenosha who are looting local businesses and destroying federal as well as private property are toxic, right?



My argument is that America's most severe racist sins are in the past. Obviously, some residues still exist albeit not to the extent that the far left is claiming.

Jack Johnson was a national political news story at the time he fought. It is where the "Great White Hope" nonsense came from. People from all over the country talked about it. There were riots where dozens of people were killed after he won the "Fight of the Century." That is political by definition.

Jesse Owens competed in the 1936 Olympics, with the ultimate racists, Adolf Hitler and the Nazis, in the stands saying he was an inferior being. Then, he got to come home to a country that had white supremacy and segregation. That is pretty political last time I checked.

Jackie Robinson's story is self-explanatory. No further explanation is required.

Joe Louis had to deal with similar situations to Johnson and Owens. He was also the first person to integrate golf even though he was a boxer. The issue of integration is politics by definition as well.

Muhammad Ali's story is self-explanatory as well. No further explanation is required.

The stories of all of these men are integral examples of politics and sports colliding. Are you that dense? Kneeling during the national anthem is not the only form that politics in American sports takes.

The unmitigated racism, abuse, and death threats that all of these men had to put up with by doing what they did is political. Plain and simple. If you want to say things are better now, well I think the last few months have suggested that there is still quite a racial problem in the country. The scumbag in the White House is Exhibit A.

By the way, having the national anthem before a sports game started as a propaganda technique by the Wilson Administration to try to stir up nationalism in order to convince the American people to get involved in World War I. Ask yourself, what does the national anthem have to do with a sporting event? Absolutely nothing. It should not be done in the first place. They don't play the national anthem in movie theaters, music concerts, and many other types of gatherings do they?

I repeat. Is everything just trolling with you, or are you being serious?
 

ItsYaBoi

Noob
I did not address the point because none of you offered any historical evidence of players kneeling during the national anthem and refusing to participate in playoff games to the extent that the games must be canceled.

As egregious as Trump's rhetoric is, democrats' continual depiction of America as racist, sexist, and xenophobic will ensure another four years of Trump because the vast majority of Americans do not believe that America sucks. Unsurprisingly, Biden has not received a boost from the DNC.



I would say the protestors in Kenosha who are looting local businesses and destroying federal as well as private property are toxic, would you not?



My argument is that America's most severe sins in terms of racism are in the past. Obviously, some residues still exist albeit not to the extent that liberals are claiming. Contrary to the false narrative that many people constantly promote in this thread, America has the most affluent, most successful, and most influential Black people in the world. Obviously, a wage gap between Whites and Blacks exists because Jim Crow laws discriminated against Black people one generation ago. Unlike patronizing and virtue-signaling White liberals, I believe that Black people are as competent as any other racial and ethnic group. The economic and social issues of today will vanish in time by Black people's own merit and diligence as history has already demonstrated.
1. You know that is not what me and Boxy were asking for examples of. We were asking for examples of prominent voices on the left who stoke hatred and toxicity to the level of the people on the right such as Milo, Sargon of Akkad, Fox News etc. And with the latter, PLEASE give me one example of a left leaning news channel that is as openly bias and hateful as Fox News. I mean, they just had Fucker Carlson essentially encourage people to do acts of violence/kill people. Where the FUCK is that happening on the left from a prominent voice? Btw, every prominent voice on the left that I follow has denounced the looting and violence and is advocating for PEACEFUL protest.

2. So you agree that America is still racist? Good. Also, those issues won't disappear with 'time', what a fucking nonsense thing to say. They'll disappear with change.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
The Civil War was not about ending slavery?! Did you really just do that? Did you REALLY just do that? I have been watching this thread since day one just watching what people say but I can't let this slide.

Do not, under any circumstances, promote any kind of Lost Cause Mythology about the Civil War. Just don't do it. It is no different than Holocaust Denial, the denial of the Armenian Genocide in Turkey, or the denial of the Rape of Nanking in Japan. Don't pull any economic excuses out of the ass of some Southern apologist pseudohistorian.

The war started after Lincoln was elected and South Carolina seceded from the Union. Then, Fort Sumter was fired upon. South Carolina seceded because of slavery. Need proof? Just look up the myriad of never ending quotes from the Confederates themselves about why the war started.

We ask you to join us, in forming a Confederacy of Slaveholding States.
—South Carolina Legislature, Address of South Carolina to Slaveholding States.[3

Georgia:




Mississippi:




South Carolina:




Texas:



CSA Constitution
Constituent assemblies in the other states of the Confederacy all underscored in their discussions the need to maintain a slave society and economy. Likewise, the right to hold slaves was specifically protected by the constitution of the Confederacy, denying its constituent states the right to outlaw slavery within its territories.[19]



Oh, and let's not forget about the white supremacy and racism parts of the secession too.

Here's Alexander Stephens, the first vice-president of the Confederacy, in reference to the Constitution, secession, and slavery.

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. [Crowd applauded.] This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.



Slaves were even integral to the "common" man fighting for his home. In other words, not just a bunch of aristocrats.

According to the 1860 US census, among the states which attempted to secede, 30.8% of families owned slaves.[20

According to the exhaustive study of the Army of Northern Virginia performed by historian Joseph Glatthaar, about 10% of the 1861 enlistees personally owned slaves (along with more than half of the officers), and very nearly half either owned slaves or lived in a slave-owning household.[22


As someone with a degree in politics and history, the Lost Cause Myth is one of the things that makes my blood boil. I am doing graduate level work right now in history. My main professor is an expert on the Civil War. His specialty is the Black Regiments that fought and died for the North. He was actually a consultant, and was an extra in, the movie Glory. I have personally read and handled some original documents from that time period.

Any serious historian will tell you the Civil War was fought over slavery. There is no ambiguity. Do yourself a favor and actually read what the people who lived at the time wrote. You dishonor the suffering of African Americans as well as the Union soldiers who died by suggesting otherwise.
I already admitted I was wrong, sorry if I offended you, I feel like if you read my other posts you know I don't mean to demean lives lost, I do apologize for speaking on a subject I haven't been fully educated in, no harm was intended by my posts.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
I really am sorry about my posts on the Civil War, I shouldn't have posted on something I haven't learned about since 5th grade history class. @Pangolin-man @CrimsonShadow I am sorry, I hope yall can forgive my ignorance on the subject, I will spend some time reading up on the actual history instead of the censored version I learned in school. I still have my doubts about how realistic some of the gun subjects crimson and i were debating are but he and I are both smart guys and I can agree to disagree, I still respect him quite a bit.

I thought about deleting my civil war posts but I won't because I bet I am not the only one ignorant on the subject and perhaps other readers can learn from my mistake.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
I repeat. Is everything just trolling with you, or are you being serious?
When you live in the far-left Internet bubble, I can understand how reading different points of view may seem like trolling, but I assure you that I would not troll about political, economic, and social issues that affect millions of people.

I appreciate your research, but you still failed to offer any examples that are as consequential and as prevalent as today's examples with Kaepernick and the NBA. I ask again. When before in sports history have the playoff games of a major league been canceled for a week because players objected to a police shooting?
 

ItsYaBoi

Noob
I really am sorry about my posts on the Civil War, I shouldn't have posted on something I haven't learned about since 5th grade history class. @Pangolin-man @CrimsonShadow I am sorry, I hope yall can forgive my ignorance on the subject, I will spend some time reading up on the actual history instead of the censored version I learned in school. I still have my doubts about how realistic some of the gun subjects crimson and i were debating are but he and I are both smart guys and I can agree to disagree, I still respect him quite a bit.

I thought about deleting my civil war posts but I won't because I bet I am not the only one ignorant on the subject and perhaps other readers can learn from my mistake.
This is what the internet (and society in general nowadays) needs more of. It's not weakness to admit that you were wrong and/or misinformed, but unfortunately the culture has shifted now to the point that many people - even prominent figures - refuse to admit when they're wrong. Everybody has become too prideful and ignorant.

Nobody is right all the time. Nobody. You can keep being proven wrong and dodging like Dave is doing, or you can just be the bigger man and admit 'yo I was wrong about that'.

Edit: case in point, Dave can't answer my latest post so chooses not to quote me and dodges me instead. Utterly pathetic at this point.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
When you live in the far-left Internet bubble, I can understand how reading different points of view may seem like trolling, but I assure you that I would not troll about political, economic, and social issues that affect millions of people.

I appreciate your research, but you still failed to offer any examples that are as consequential and as prevalent as today's examples with Kaepernick and the NBA. I ask again. When before in sports history have the playoff games of a major league been canceled for a week because players objected to a police shooting?
When has the world ever been in this chaotic and divisive a state in modern televised history before? You don't think an increase in severity of the global situation warrants an increase in expression from those who have the platform to speak on the subject?
Also, the fact that your only answer to mine and Boi's question is the most recent protestors in Kenosha tells me that you never had a substantial answer when I asked you the first time after the protests started. Because it's cool to just spew rhetoric and have no counterpoint to justify it. That's what we're doing now.
Young white boy can kill people with an assault rifle and get a pass from Tucker Carlson and the fucker in the White House, but a black man gets shot seven times in the back in front of his kids, and people are wrong for protesting because it could just as easily be any one of them.
And the NBA, and soon the NFL as well, are wrong for using their platform to make it inescapable how wrong it is and how wrong it would be even if Jacob was white and the cops were all black. Imagine the violence we would have had then. Imagine how many Rittenhouses would be out there right now.