Seriously... Something needs to be done about the pokes

[Slymind]

Like NRS gives a fuck

This is the problem right here, OP initiated a discussion proposing changes and went in depth about it, then you come, add nothing to the discussion(get tons of upvotes while at it), and that's it. This is exactly what needs to stop around here, there is gamefaqs for that.

As for the topic, i think points 1 and 2 are very interesting, point 3 i don't agree, point 4 is ok either way for me.

 

[kcd117]

Pokes in this game are stupid.

I don't mean to sound rude but anyone that disagrees is not playing this game at a high level.

Character like Sub-Zero, Scorpion, Jacqui, Noob Saibot, Nightwolf and a few others have this obnoxious "mind" game that revolves around poking you on block with their lightning-fast blocsktun buttons that will set up a perfect distance for them to take a step back and whiff punish your counterpoke. If you dare think for 2 frames bam... you get double poked. They have tools to condition you to act immediately bc if you don't they'll take the turn again and put you in a shitty situation.

Now that would be fine considering it was coming from any other kinda normal in this game, but not from pokes... pokes should have huge hitstun (not frame advantage, just hitstun, like after you poke someone on hit you should have a long time to say "hey look, I hit you, now is my turn and I can go for my button without getting mashed out") and blockstun (same thing they did with erron's 21 in the last patch, you poke someone on block and there is a long ass time before both character are able to do anything, so you can think "hey jacqui, I blocked your poke, now please, go to hell with your non-hit-confirmed low crushing 9 frame mid bc this is my turn and this is a game for solid people, not maniacs"). Pokes are supposed to be used to take turns on hit, which they don't in a lot of cases due to how awkward fast the hitstun is; and when blocked they should force you to lose your turn, which they also don't due to how awkward fast the blockstun is.

If you think they are fine the way they are, think about this: what harm would it do to make both their blockstun and hitstun three times what it is rn? It wouldn't mess with frame data, with combos, with anything really... all it would do is make it harder for people to steal your turn by mashing and make the online experience a lot more enjoyable as it would be a lot less mashy and force people to play solid.

 

[John_NX]

Make every D1 -7 on block like kitana's. Problem solved. Gg ez

 

[OnlineSkunk]

- 7 it's to drastic, I'd say just get rid of the pushback from pokes like Noob Saibot's D4s

Pokes into specials are an integral part of the MK meta. 95% of them are highly unsafe.. And in this game, they don’t actually combo. You can interrupt some of them by poking back, and most of the others you can just block and full punish.

And now, since the patch, if you flawless block the poke then the special won’t even come out.

There are plenty of options for dealing with these.. And it’s been a thing since MK9 or before, so this is one particular complaint I don’t understand.

They need to at least remove the pushback from pokes, there should be no reason for me to have to jump or mini forward dash & risk getting whiff punished to counter certain pokes. Noob Saibot it's an example of this issue, as a Jacqui player you either have to jump or mini dash in order to stop him from spamming D4s. Now, this is only a few characters that can do that but still.

PS: I'd get rid of the pushback and make every poke more hit comfirmable.

 

[Darth-Nero]

pokes into special is fine, That have always been a part of mk and doesn't need to go. I agree with everything else you suggest tho.

 

[M2Dave]

Back in MK9 you wouldnt DARE throw a second down poke after the opponent blocked the first one.

Of course you would not considering d+1s were -13 on block and only +1 on hit, which made fighting characters like Cage and Kabal obnoxious up close.

No, thank you. Never again unless you give me access to armor.

 

[BRAZILIAN SHEEP]

Bruno, what is your take on

I can't believe it's been like almost 1 year and pokes in this game are still messed up.

A lot of pokes in this game are like -3 -4 -5 on block with a very little blockstun, on hit not plus enough and some of them low profiles. This make pokes extremely hard to hit confirm leading to the ugly things that we are seeing in this game - poke into poke, poke into jump, poke into backdash, poke straight up into string, poke into specials... The counter poke in this game is very ugly

"Ohhh but this only works on scrubs" "ohhh but this only works at online"

BULLSHIT

Last month I played the Liga Latina and I made top 5 in Brazil and the other day top 5 in Latin America and pokes were being scrubby EXACTLY like on online. Even I was using pokes in the scrubby way and guess what... It was working lmaaoo i was doing a lot poke into string and not even hit confirming it if it hit my opponent or block cause untill you try to hit confirm it you already lost some precious hit adv frames to jail your stuffs and they're so little negative on block with very little blockstun that my opponents a lot of time couldn't react that they blocked my pokes.

Here's what I propose to fix pokes in this game:

1 - more negative frames on block. Make ALL pokes at least -7 on block

2 - more positive frames on hit. Make ALL pokes at least +15 on hit.

3 - no more pokes into specials EXCEPT command grabs/tick throws

4 - reduce the pushback on pokes on block so it will prevent pokes into backdash

Bruno, what is your take about the overall balance / competitiveness of the game? The 50/50s, neutral....everything.
I did post a lot of critics here about the game and I think that the game right now is a mess. Too much leeway for random scrubies win without thinking / prudence, despite the fact that is gorgeous looking and fun to play.
But what is your opinion?

 

[REO]

Of course you would not considering d+1s were -13 on block and only +1 on hit, which made fighting characters like Cage and Kabal obnoxious up close.

No, thank you. Never again unless you give me access to armor.

This is misleading.

Pokes were for the most part fine in MK9. It was more so Kabal and Johnny Cage who both had broken offense up close that was the issue, not the general poking system.

 

[TaserFace007]

I think all that really needs to be done with pokes is to give them a lot more pushback, so their real use is to get away and reset the neutral. You can't just sit there poking and throwing, everyone is forced to do something else. Something along those lines would solve most of the issues with them and with the meta which the current setup creates.

 

[Iconic Horror]

Bro you don't get it. You are talking about the O.S flawless block. That's NOT done especially to flawless block pokes. That's done purely to try to still get your turn when you're negative and you guess your opponent will try to start his turn with a fast move.

I don't play MK11 anymore but when I did I wouldn't try to OS flawless block anything. I didn't really invest myself that much. ..but I figured after I differentiate what my opponent is trying to d1 mash out of and what he/she isn't then I would try to flawless block that poke.

If D'vorah's s44 string is still neutral that is an example of something I would probably attempt to flawless block a poke after doing. It isn't that hard when you make the d1 read and you aren't that negative.

I watch Deoxy's, NK, Rewind do it too. Don't know about others.

As for the poke game I'm with you though pokes are gross in this game. Need to be more negative on block and more plus on hit.

 

[Metzos]

Of course you would not considering d+1s were -13 on block and only +1 on hit, which made fighting characters like Cage and Kabal obnoxious up close.

No, thank you. Never again unless you give me access to armor.

In MK9, I was playing Ermac, whose d3 was MINUS on hit and his d1 on block was full combo punishable against JC for example.

You brought up Kabal and JC who had broken offense in MK9 but even then, JC was manageable. He was godlike up close, he sucked from far away. Is that the case with him in MK11? I dont think so. Another case of incorrect decisions regarding his tool kit. They make a character who has godlike rushdown, have godlike zoning as well. SMFH.

Kabal was broken in MK9 but he required a really high learning curve to be able to win with him. Name me a top tier character in MK11 who requires a learning curve as MK9 Kabal did to be able to win with him.

Bottom line Dave, the essence of a fighting game MK9 had, is almost non-existent in MK11. Just check the forums and tell me how many new threads and techs have been discovered since the game was released. The game was FUN, it had tons of MU experience to gain and learn even in its final days.

Even the stages were a big factor in MU's cause of their length! Some stages were bigger than others if you recall.

Where are those things in MK11? And plz dont tell me about interactibles cause i m gonna throw up.

Check the general discussion character threads and tell me if the conversations there are vivified as there were during MK9 and MKX even. Not even close.

Check if there are any new techs discovered recently in character forums.

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

The poke meta, is followed by the jk policy folks.
It has to have easy way in. They're fine, just getgut, you'll.

 

[Slymind]

In MK9, I was playing Ermac, whose d3 was MINUS on hit and his d1 on block was full combo punishable against JC for example.

You brought up Kabal and JC who had broken offense in MK9 but even then, JC was manageable. He was godlike up close, he sucked from far away. Is that the case with him in MK11? I dont think so. Another case of incorrect decisions regarding his tool kit. They make a character who has godlike rushdown, have godlike zoning as well. SMFH.

Kabal was broken in MK9 but he required a really high learning curve to be able to win with him. Name me a top tier character in MK11 who requires a learning curve as MK9 Kabal did to be able to win with him.

Bottom line Dave, the essence of a fighting game MK9 had, is almost non-existent in MK11. Just check the forums and tell me how many new threads and techs have been discovered since the game was released. The game was FUN, it had tons of MU experience to gain and learn even in its final days.

Even the stages were a big factor in MU's cause of their length! Some stages were bigger than others if you recall.

Where are those things in MK11? And plz dont tell me about interactibles cause i m gonna throw up.

Check the general discussion character threads and tell me if the conversations there are vivified as there were during MK9 and MKX even. Not even close.

Check if there are any new techs discovered recently in character forums.

We are Just discussing MK11 poke system in this thread, M2Dave just spoke about MK9 frames for comparison on the topic at hand.

No need to derail this thread by rambling about How superior MK9 is, make a new thread If need be.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Did M2Dave turn heel or something recently? I remember when the game came out he was on here posting about its issues and calling out crimson for being a shill and now they are like Hulk Hogan and Macho Man Randy Savage Mega Powers lol.

Crimson is Hogan of course.

Gotta give my man TOP billing.

 

[M2Dave]

Pokes were for the most part fine in MK9. It was more so Kabal and Johnny Cage who both had broken offense up close that was the issue, not the general poking system.

Even if you reduced the speed of these 8 or 9 frame mid attacks to 11 or 12, you could still get punished, especially if NRS ever overhauls the blocking mechanics.

Mortal Kombat 9's low pokes are the worst I have ever seen. I cannot recall playing any fighting game in which a simple low poke is more unsafe than a launcher. Awful design decision.

Is that the case with him in MK11? I dont think so. Another case of incorrect decisions regarding his tool kit. They make a character who has godlike rushdown, have godlike zoning as well. SMFH.

Johnny had the identical design in Mortal Kombat X too, but he was heavily normalized. "Godlike rush down" is a hyperbole. He is a great zoning and footsies character in Outtake. He gives up the great zoning in favor of great comeback potential in Showstopper. I personally have no problem with this design.

Kabal was broken in MK9 but he required a really high learning curve to be able to win with him. Name me a top tier character in MK11 who requires a learning curve as MK9 Kabal did to be able to win with him.

Fortunately, nobody does. Characters like Kabal, Cyrax, Martian Manhunter, and Zod ruined games and caused players to quit because they are eventually mastered.

I agree that Mortal Kombat 11 has a lack of depth problem. The learning curve for most characters ought to be higher.

Bottom line Dave, the essence of a fighting game MK9 had, is almost non-existent in MK11. Just check the forums and tell me how many new threads and techs have been discovered since the game was released. The game was FUN, it had tons of MU experience to gain and learn even in its final days.

The game was fun for a year when the game was in its experimental stage. Then all of a sudden people became good and started mastering characters like Kabal, Cyrax, Kenshi, Sonya, Smoke, etc. I did not have fun fighting block infinite combos, 90% combos, meter drain glitches, P1 advantages, etc. If you did, more power to you. But this game sucks and is unplayable at a high level.

 

[LionHeart V1]

Pokes are so utterly stupid in MK11. I have d1 more in MK11 than I ever did in mk9, mkx, inj and inj2 combined. As I’ve said before all MK11 is MKd1pokegrab.

Adjust pokes
remove krushing blows
make fatal blows -10,000 on block
delete geras, jaqui, cetrion, erron, from the game and adjust a few others and the game would improve significantly.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Ppl are flawless blocking pokes as reversal, they dont just randomly flawless block pokes.

i do it randomly

 

[Eddy Wang]

3 ways this c be fixed

a) give everyone 11f mids and make pokes -6

b) make short hops invincible vs poles and d1

c) fucking give both options already

 

[DeftMonk]

Honestly I think the whole d1 jailing into standing high attacks inside the meta of mk11 is super interesting ,but the reaction time is too short for some characters.

It’s not too say it isn’t doable but it’s too difficult for 95% of players to take part in and enjoy. For someone to do something like d1 (on hit) jail into 12 then hit confirm into ex nut punch or 124 on block with cage. Is way too hard.

Depth is completely lacking and this kind of stuff is way too hard imo.

 

[Tony at Home]

Every single character in the game has a 10 frame throw that will beat d1 mashing. There's nothing to "be done" here.

What's funny is people where complaining hard about pokes NOT having throw invulnerability when the game released. Remember that? Like it was legit making people angry that they could get thrown out of the active frames of a poke.

It's like no one wants to acknowledge throws are a good solution to beating poke mashing, because they're too pissed about getting thrown when they're mashing pokes themselves.

 

[Zviko]

Every single character in the game has a 10 frame throw that will beat d1 mashing. There's nothing to "be done" here.

What's funny is people where complaining hard about pokes NOT having throw invulnerability when the game released. Remember that? Like it was legit making people angry that they could get thrown out of the active frames of a poke.

It's like no one wants to acknowledge throws are a good solution to beating poke mashing, because they're too pissed about getting thrown when they're mashing pokes themselves.

To get thrown in this game you must hold block or not be ducking. Down poking is equal to ducking. So how does that even make sense? That is not a solution but it actually needs to get fixed. It's been 9 months...

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Pokes in this game are stupid.

I don't mean to sound rude but anyone that disagrees is not playing this game at a high level.

Character like Sub-Zero, Scorpion, Jacqui, Noob Saibot, Nightwolf and a few others have this obnoxious "mind" game that revolves around poking you on block with their lightning-fast blocsktun buttons that will set up a perfect distance for them to take a step back and whiff punish your counterpoke. If you dare think for 2 frames bam... you get double poked. They have tools to condition you to act immediately bc if you don't they'll take the turn again and put you in a shitty situation.

Scorpion doesn't have any fast mids and doesn't really get much from a poke. His f3 mindgame relies on a 1-time use KB, and once it's gone there's little risk to it on the defensive end.

You're not losing much by just being patient and getting him to show his hand. If you make a read on him taking a step back to counter with an advancing normal after you block his poke, if you're right you full combo him. And if you're wrong and he pokes again, then you eat a poke for tiny damage and can just block again.

What I don't understand is people saying that they refuse to be patient in fighting games and want to always be able to autopilot out a reply. That won't get you far in many games, MK11 notwithstanding.

 

[Tony at Home]

To get thrown in this game you must hold block or not be ducking. Down poking is equal to ducking.

Down poking is not equal to ducking. You can be thrown out of a down poke. Mashing d1 is easily punishable by a reversal throw

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[Chernyy Volk]

Check out my video I just put out on this subject @Bruno-NeoSpace

 

[Zviko]

Down poking is not equal to ducking. You can be thrown out of a down poke. Mashing d1 is easily punishable by a reversal throw

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That's what I'm saying. It's not supposed to work like this. Not in this game. You can be at jump in range and you can grab someone's D4 lol. It's broken, not intentional.