Sonic Explains Why Every Type of Jump-In is Counterable

[CrimsonShadow]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207758493995982849

This is similar to something Eddy Wang described months ago. But this is why labbing is > complaining every time in my book. If you're willing to put in a little bit of work, you can counter people who constantly ji3 in a braindead fastion.

I also spoke about this in my analysis of how Sonic beat ArnKratos (NEC) after AK gained advantage in the first set against him by repeatedly jumping in.

P.S. Thanks to @DarksydeDash for the tip.

 

[appo]

Thread title is a bit misleading unless you consider getting hit, being a counter on deep j3. It's interesting for sure but when people know you do it they will go for deep j1/2 so you need to guess so you shouldn't telegraph that option to much or you eat a big jumpin combo.

 

[Braindead]

I came across this in the lab a long time ago but I always pussy out trying to do it in real matches because if they delay the jump kick I'll get hit.

Even if I know they're gonna do the JK early I still just block.

Gotta have bigger balls.

 

[james1926]

I mean, you have to guess how they gonna jump in (punch-kick, early-late) and even then sonicfox (top1 player) couldn't consistently punish in practice, offline, when he knew a jump was coming and how.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Thread title is a bit misleading unless you consider getting hit, being a counter on deep j3. It's interesting for sure but when people know you do it they will go for deep j1/2 so you need to guess so you shouldn't telegraph that option to much or you eat a big jumpin combo.

If you watch the second video, he talks about this, and explains that due to the hit reaction on a neutral duck vs. a standing AA attempt it's a lot harder for many characters to full combo from deep jk.

And the later they delay it, the greater chance you'll just end up reaction-d1'ing or d3'ing them into a combo anyway.

 

[appo]

If you watch the second video, he talks about this, and explains that due to the hit reaction on a neutral duck vs. a standing AA attempt it's a lot harder for many characters to full combo from deep jk.

I know but you still eat it and take damage, I wouldn't consider that a counter.For the normal one, yes but that's a read you have to make. Btw, do you know what the frame situation is in that situation for your opponent on whiff?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I know but you still eat it and take damage, I wouldn't consider that a counter.

Sure, and the next time they jump kick, you full combo them before it goes active for much more damage. That's how yomi works.

 

[Hellbringer]

Thread title is a bit misleading unless you consider getting hit, being a counter on deep j3. It's interesting for sure but when people know you do it they will go for deep j1/2 so you need to guess so you shouldn't telegraph that option to much or you eat a big jumpin combo.

But then again those deep jumpins are much easier to AA.

 

[Eldriken]

This is some good stuff. FUCK GERAS' BODYSPLASH. LULLLLL

 

[DarkSado]

No Excuse for NRS not to make good anti-air.

 

[MrArcher15]

This is all good and dandy but when players have to come up with different ways to combat a universal move all characters have and not the devs, that’s an issue. Especially cuz someone can just empty jump. In a game like street fighter you empty jump, change your jump arc, etc it doesn’t matter cuz 99% of the time you get dp’d. In this game we gotta find a strategy to combat something most modern fighters give the players a universal way to combat lmao

 

[CrimsonShadow]

This is all good and dandy but when players have to come up with different ways to combat a universal move all characters have and not the devs, that’s an issue. Especially cuz someone can just empty jump. In a game like street fighter you empty jump, change your jump arc, etc it doesn’t matter cuz 99% of the time you get dp’d. In this game we gotta find a strategy to combat something most modern fighters give the players a universal way to combat lmao

If you empty jump-in from neutral in this game you'll 100% end up getting trip-guarded for combo. You'll see people doing it occasionally on cross-up, like after a knockdown, for example, or on a fatal blow/wakeup bait.. But just raw jumping in on people would be a death sentence against even a half-decent player.

 

[MrArcher15]

If you empty jump-in from neutral in this game you'll 100% end up getting trip-guarded for combo. You'll see people doing it occasionally on cross-up, like after a knockdown, for example, or on a fatal blow/wakeup bait.. But just raw jumping in on people would be a death sentence against even a half-decent player.

Naw bro trust me with Jax I do it all the time against people and f33 when I land and it works. It works because people are scared to anti air so they try to flawless block it, but if I’m just empty jump your flawless block is useless, now yes you can trip guard me but that’s one of the billion things you have to consider when I jump vs me just thinking I’m either gonna j3 or empty jump and f33.

 

[Sazbak]

This is range dependent. If you're a bit farther away then you need to backwalk/backdash to punish, because ducking won't work.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Naw bro trust me with Jax I do it all the time against people and f33 when I land and it works. It works because people are scared to anti air so they try to flawless block it, but if I’m just empty jump your flawless block is useless, now yes you can trip guard me but that’s one of the billion things you have to consider when I jump vs me just thinking I’m either gonna j3 or empty jump and f33.

I'm not sure if you watched the videos.. But if someone is literally sitting there waiting to low profile/trip guard a jump in, and you empty jump in on them, you're getting blown up for a full combo.

 

[MrArcher15]

I'm not sure if you watched the videos.. But if someone is literally sitting there waiting to low profile/trip guard a jump in, and you empty jump in on them, you're getting blown up for a full combo.

admittedly I didn’t cuz I was working so I skimmed it but we can agree to disagree since I’ve done it enough times to players of varying skilll levels to know it works

Edit: maybe I should add that when I do this it’s at a range where the opponent has to come in a bit to trip guard. But since I’m landing and inputting f33 immediately when you try to come in you get clipped

 

[CrimsonShadow]

admittedly I didn’t cuz I was working so I skimmed it but we can agree to disagree since I’ve done it enough times to players of varying skilll levels to know it works

I hear you. If you watch the videos you'll understand why it doesn't have any relevance to this particular thread. Unless they're just lagging/delayed on the trip guard.

I can see that definitely being effective against flawless block attempts, just not against this particular approach.

 

[MrArcher15]

I hear you. If you watch the videos you'll understand why it doesn't have any relevance to this particular thread. Unless they're just lagging/delayed on the trip guard.

Gotcha, no worries I am pretty curious

 

[ExpectFlames]

Gonna try to add this tech seems risky especially the dash under on wake up, I feel like they always getthe auto correct jump in

 

[freerf245]

Still think that anti airs need to be buffed

 

[MrArcher15]

Still think that anti airs need to be buffed

NRS gonna see this and be like see!! No issues

 

[ExpectFlames]

Yeah it doesn't work, the distance that fox is talking about is the most advantageous position to possibly be in. Secondly fox himself told us not to long ago jump ins are to strong. I'm going to be honest I'm not a fan of this fox who tells half truths just seems a tad bit disingenuous this whole month he has been giving us I told you so's, or the shills have.
I want to get back to the basics to and fall in love with the game, Fox just seems like hes pushing an agenda rather then a love for the craft. To be blunt him and NRS clearly coordinating and that seems foul.

 

[ExpectFlames]

NRS gonna see this and be like see!! No issues

That's exactly my thoughts on preaty much everything he has been doing this month. The tier list where a new bottom is suddenly top 5. In no way am I challenging his acumen but something "seems"fishy.

 

[Wigy]

This seems really situational.

If they do a jip you eat a full combo
If they have a djk special link you eat that.
If the spacing is different you eat it.

Let's not say 'lul you guys just aren't labbing it'

Remember when fox said subs f2 was reactable and everyone was like go lab it lol.

Then he later admitted he couldn't do it in game.

JKs are badly designed and have been since day 1. This is a good option to have in the bank but it's not some huge revelation we all should have labbed.

Worth posting but the shots fired comments just a bit silly.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

This seems really situational.

If they do a jip you eat a full combo
If they have a djk special link you eat that.
If the spacing is different you eat it.

Let's not say 'lul you guys just aren't labbing it'

Remember when fox said subs f2 was reactable and everyone was like go lab it lol.

Then he later admitted he couldn't do it in game.

JKs are badly designed and have been since day 1. This is a good option to have in the bank but it's not some huge revelation we all should have labbed.

Worth posting but the shots fired comments just a bit silly.

Jip whiffs even worse than jik on neutral crouch. Try it. And if you're resorting to jip (not sure why you would) it's easy to AA normally.

Jik whiff into special would have to be a really particular special that doesn't whiff on someone neutral crouching. Unless you mean a really deep jik into some special that captures, in which case, everything he said about deep jk's applies (it's easy to AA them). And unless you're doing more damage via that special than you would lose if AA'ed, the risk reward on that is not in the jumper's favor. Also if you're committing to the special and they just block it, you've now in most cases converted your jumpin into an unsafe one. I don't think this is an answer.

And everything in this game.. Normals, many specials, AAs and even the jumpins themselves are spacing-dependent. Obviously if you don't have the proper spacing, you'll do something else. For example if they're at the tail edge of jik distance you could just walk back slightly. Doesn't make this any less valuable.