How to balance Jade.

[John_NX]

Hi everyone, this is my first ever "how to balance" character. I've been going through most changes in my mind and since i've seen the jade community being quite active and talkive about this characters tech, frame data etc, i wanted to be part of it. Of course this isnt gonna be 100% accurate of what balance is / could be achieved but playing jade since launch and against opponents of every skill level i believe i can talk about this character.
First of all, i wanna say that jade is NOT a bad character by any means. I actually think she plays the meta very well. However, i do think she could receive some kind of "buffs" in order to make her more competitive on a high (and not only) level.

Lets get started with her STRENGTHS:

1. Insanely good neutral control.
2. Good zoning and stagers (If you combine both ED and JD).
3. Great pokes with her D3 & D4.
4. One of the best D2's in the game (Which makes her anti air almost everyone with ease).
5. Counter zoning.
6. Really annoying to go against.

Her WEAKNESSES go as follows:

1. Really low damage output.
2. She can be very predictable with her moves.
3. Most of her specials are near death on block (However JD can bypass that with cancels and ED with correct spacing).
4. Opponents are able to breakaway from most of her krushing blows (Her main source of damage) and only relies on one of them (I believe the shadow kick KB is really good and viable).
5. No real comeback factor .
6. Jade player has to be well aware of the MU and general knowledge to do well on a high level with her (Even though this is universal for every character).

Now that we have covered and talked about what makes her good and what doesnt, i can talk about how i can balance her.

Universal changes:

• S2 has a slightly increased hit region.
• F2 is now faster and covers the air above her, i'd probably make it between 24-26 frames and remove the blockstun. (Mainly because this is meant to punish low range pokes and wake ups, but even i am struggling to make it work as its supposed to).
• Slightly increased damage to all of her normals by 2-3% (For example, make 212 cause around 14-15% instead of 12.5%).
• 21 no longer whiffs during combos.
• Her throw KB is now 310 damage and the opponent cant break away.
• F41 is now -10 on block and make the second hit a mid (I dont see the reason for it being -14 when it literally leads to a knockdown).

Emerald Defender changes:

• Razor rang is less minus on block if you do it raw. Maybe make it -18 or -19 on block just like kabals.
• Upward razor rang starts up now faster at 18 frames.
• I wish they would make her Upward razor rang or Edenian spark a base ability and maybe fit into this variation Delia's Dance so she has something safe to cancel her moves into.

Jaded changes:

• Make pole vault cause slightly more damage, from 12% to 14-15% (Because she doesnt rely on zoning in this variation).
• Make her amplified nitro kick +4 or +5 instead of +3 (So she can capitalize more on her plus frames and the bar spent).

Untameable: I dont really play this variation so i cant tell.

Questionable buffs:

• MAYBE make her amplified razor rang jail.
• MAYBE make her 124 KB come out on a counter or a punish. If its made like that, then we can skip the "Buff her damage" statement.

How NOT TO BUFF JADE: I've seen countless threads and texts that suggest we buff jade in different ways, which i think are dumb. Such as:

• Make glow faster or make SOME projectiles not to bypass it (This has been suggested by Glortor so many times and i cant see the reason for it since its SUCH a powerful tool and shuts down entire gameplans.)
• Make deadly butterfly safe.
• Make her Nitro kick safe or a mid.

I believe those changes would be the best she can get before being "finished". And one last thing i wanna say is that, maybe a lot of people will find those "Fixes" too much as they might think that jade is "a pain to go against" but i also wanna see other characters buffed in a way that i have helped / suggested we help jade. Please discuss in a nice manner, thank you for reading =).

 

[Braindead]

I think Jade is balanced already she doesn't need any balancing. The list of weaknesses you had aren't real weaknesses except the first one, but even that is justified due to her insane stuff elsewhere.

The key to cashing out on KB combos is to only use them when the opponent doesn't have meter. Particularly when you punish wakeups and rolls. I had that problem with Totemic Kotal and I only use the F122 KB when I punish rolls and it's beautiful like that. In Jade's throw KB it's even easier to land that.

 

[Zer0_h0ur]

I just never will get why Nitrokick can't be safe on block.

I played this game pretty often like you guys, but when I see a list of things that can be safe when amplified, able to be amplified on BLOCK, then I see a list of things that get amplified and you can still get boned.....usually the latter aren't characters with such a weak risk/reward ratio. Usually its like a NW type that can get his easy 30% combo off his next touch. idk, I think with her risk reward she deserves something like that.

 

[M.D.]

If nitro kick becomes safe or a mid I'll take the same properties for Cage, and also the KB.
Otherwise gtfolol

 

[Agilaz]

If nitro kick becomes safe or a mid I'll take the same properties for Cage, and also the KB.
Otherwise gtfolol

Your top 3 character doesn't need more buffs lol

 

[M.D.]

Your top 3 character doesn't need more buffs lol

Neither does yours but we're still here no?

 

[Agilaz]

Neither does yours but we're still here no?

Literally nobody considers Shang top 3, not even his most fervent up players.

 

[Wrenchfarm]

If nitro kick becomes safe or a mid I'll take the same properties for Cage, and also the KB.
Otherwise gtfolol

I mean you have both amplified Rising Star and low Forceballs to make a string safe but go off, king

 

[kcd117]

Imo all she needs is more dmg on a punish. It really hurts her to get 50/50ed by Sonya and guess right 5 times but in the sixth one when you get hit you realize she did more dmg in one good guess than you did in five. I'd like her punish dmg to go from 12-18% to 18-24%.

Some of her strings are extremely unsafe for no reason, making her rely on the same moves over and over again to play neutral. It is not necessarily needed but she could use some love on her F41 and B12 for example just for the sake of letting us use something else in some situations.

One thing I think could work to make her V3 useful is to make S3 a mid in that variation to give her more mind games with the extra strings.

 

[Wrenchfarm]

Imo all she needs is more dmg on a punish. It really hurts her to get 50/50ed by Sonya and guess right 5 times but in the sixth one when you get hit you realize she did more dmg in one good guess than you did in five. I'd like her punish dmg to go from 12-18% to 18-24%.

Some of her strings are extremely unsafe for no reason, making her rely on the same moves over and over again to play neutral. It is not necessarily needed but she could use some love on her F41 and B12 for example just for the sake of letting us use something else in some situations.

THIS. I mean, there are other things that could use tweaking, but this is the long and short of it. Jade feels dull and unrewarding to play because she's dull and unrewarding. The lack of damage is a real issue (and her zoning/neutral does not compensate) and because of how unsafe a bunch of her strings are you're basically always doing the same shit.

I like Jade, but after playing around with other characters a bunch recently, it's pretty obvious she was designed for an earlier, lower damage version of the game.

 

[thlityoursloat]

I just never will get why Nitrokick can't be safe on block.

I played this game pretty often like you guys, but when I see a list of things that can be safe when amplified, able to be amplified on BLOCK, then I see a list of things that get amplified and you can still get boned.....usually the latter aren't characters with such a weak risk/reward ratio. Usually its like a NW type that can get his easy 30% combo off his next touch. idk, I think with her risk reward she deserves something like that.

You could've just asked for a buff to any of her other tools.. but you just had to pick the yolo fuck neutral special? I don't think any other character has that, not Kang, not SZ, not Scorpion, even Noob's teleport is an unsafe on block high. These moves need to be unsafe.

 

[Arqwart]

I think Jade is balanced already she doesn't need any balancing. The list of weaknesses you had aren't real weaknesses except the first one, but even that is justified due to her insane stuff elsewhere.

The key to cashing out on KB combos is to only use them when the opponent doesn't have meter. Particularly when you punish wakeups and rolls. I had that problem with Totemic Kotal and I only use the F122 KB when I punish rolls and it's beautiful like that. In Jade's throw KB it's even easier to land that.

I'm of the mind that Jade is balanced and decent in her current state, but good lord would I love more worthwhile tools.

• F4 is clearly meant to be a neutral tool for low crushing pokes, but is too slow
• F41 may as well not exist. Death on whiff AND block for a string that does nothing
• B1 is a slow mid with barely any bonus range despite using the staff and is death on whiff + guaranteed turn loss on block
• B12 is death on block and whiff while being too slow to catch anyone from a distance
• 43 is a matchup-specific-only combo starter. Useless otherwise due to High start and slow second hit
• 3 is a High with no potential
• Parry is 12f. All other parries are 9f
• Her main two KBs are combo launchers on a character that has no combo threat to force breakaways and has almost no followup power to said KBs

I'd accept nerfs to D2, D4, air rang, Pole Vault, B343, and B2 to redistribute her power budget to other things. I feel so gimped playing Jade in this state as there's basically hard locks on some moves as they are never worth using in any situation. That always makes me think "What was the point in creating and animating this then?"

 

[Zer0_h0ur]

You could've just asked for a buff to any of her other tools.. but you just had to pick the yolo fuck neutral special? I don't think any other character has that, not Kang, not SZ, not Scorpion, even Noob's teleport is an unsafe on block high. These moves need to be unsafe.

Haha
When you put it that way

 

[Rodney Quillz]

I mean you have both amplified Rising Star and low Forceballs to make a string safe but go off, king

To be fair I don’t think many Johnny mains play outtake seriously, just tier whores, he’s most likely referring to jock.

 

[John_NX]

Imo all she needs is more dmg on a punish. It really hurts her to get 50/50ed by Sonya and guess right 5 times but in the sixth one when you get hit you realize she did more dmg in one good guess than you did in five. I'd like her punish dmg to go from 12-18% to 18-24%.

Some of her strings are extremely unsafe for no reason, making her rely on the same moves over and over again to play neutral. It is not necessarily needed but she could use some love on her F41 and B12 for example just for the sake of letting us use something else in some situations.

One thing I think could work to make her V3 useful is to make S3 a mid in that variation to give her more mind games with the extra strings.

You've pretty much summed up my whole thread. Thank you

 

[John_NX]

I think Jade is balanced already she doesn't need any balancing. The list of weaknesses you had aren't real weaknesses except the first one, but even that is justified due to her insane stuff elsewhere.

The key to cashing out on KB combos is to only use them when the opponent doesn't have meter. Particularly when you punish wakeups and rolls. I had that problem with Totemic Kotal and I only use the F122 KB when I punish rolls and it's beautiful like that. In Jade's throw KB it's even easier to land that.

I always said that she is balanced. She just needs a little bit more love. Now...about the KB stuff, yeah i know but it doesnt always work like that. Sometimes you are gonna KB someone because you NEED it. Some characters get unbreakable KB and jade doesnt. Why?

 

[deathstroke187]

i wouldnt make balance changes for her but make her less boring

 

[Shale101]

I would give up all her mediocre zoning abilities to have some real combo potential and damage. These short 2 hit combos(B12,F1) that are death on block are just not practical. People learn to block them easy because they are 2 hits.........her only good combo is back 343 and people learn that REAL quick if you have to do it over and over and over and over........when you cancel into ex glaive the will poke you out or jump out. Yes you could finish the string or throw but it leaves very little for Jade to do..........Her regular glaive is a purposeful handicap for her to make up for her having glow. Newsflash people glow is not the end all..........its a very risky thing to do and it doesn't protect you from everything. People act like she is dealing extra damage from it or something.......she should be with how horrendous her damage output is. I would rather have a fast speed regular projectile with no glow at all.......Jaded and third variation I hardly use the regular glaive since the start up is just so bad. I can knock someone down and they can hit me before I even have a chance to get the projectile out. These two variations have no other projectiles........

 

[GLoRToR]

How to balance Jade:
Fix her risk reward.

/thread

 

[Wrenchfarm]

To be fair I don’t think many Johnny mains play outtake seriously, just tier whores, he’s most likely referring to jock.

Ah yes, the ever elusive real mains who for some reason don't play the best variation of their character because they are too pure and noble.

Good chat.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Ah yes, the ever elusive real mains who for some reason don't play the best variation of their character because they are too pure and noble.

Good chat.

Sarcasm that is not only smug, but puts words in my mouth also!

I was mostly referring to the fact that it will probably be nerfed into oblivion so they have a “why bother mentality.” Nothing to do with being pure or noble.

Such a good, good, chat.

 

[abyson]

whew jade. No one can say she has any issues without consistent opposition it makes me kinda think there might be no changes in the future for her precisely the near future there are a couple ways to get past her good tools that are specific to her variations and as an opponent you aren't risking anything but a little damage and knockdown she is definitely excellent against people that don't know anything about jade but nothing she does is surprising anyone primarily because of the few safe options that have to be repeated I dnt really see her getting any buffs anytime soon but I guess itll be nice

 

[abyson]

I would give up all her mediocre zoning abilities to have some real combo potential and damage. These short 2 hit combos(B12,F1) that are death on block are just not practical. People learn to block them easy because they are 2 hits.........her only good combo is back 343 and people learn that REAL quick if you have to do it over and over and over and over........when you cancel into ex glaive the will poke you out or jump out. Yes you could finish the string or throw but it leaves very little for Jade to do..........Her regular glaive is a purposeful handicap for her to make up for her having glow. Newsflash people glow is not the end all..........its a very risky thing to do and it doesn't protect you from everything. People act like she is dealing extra damage from it or something.......she should be with how horrendous her damage output is. I would rather have a fast speed regular projectile with no glow at all.......Jaded and third variation I hardly use the regular glaive since the start up is just so bad. I can knock someone down and they can hit me before I even have a chance to get the projectile out. These two variations have no other projectiles........

im really happy someone mentioned the zoning being mediocre her normal move list design seems really similar to that of a zoner like the distance of the knockdown on hit and the generous package of unsafe stings when she doest have any useful zoning option outside of ED like if I had sonyas rings I why will I be trying to use glow with every opportunity I get

 

[GLoRToR]

whew jade. No one can say she has any issues without consistent opposition it makes me kinda think there might be no changes in the future for her precisely the near future there are a couple ways to get past her good tools that are specific to her variations and as an opponent you aren't risking anything but a little damage and knockdown she is definitely excellent against people that don't know anything about jade but nothing she does is surprising anyone primarily because of the few safe options that have to be repeated I dnt really see her getting any buffs anytime soon but I guess itll be nice

All she needs is her risk reward fixed somehow and her hitbox issues fixed MAYBE but that's all across the cast apparently so whatever.
Everything else is just a plus.

 

[abyson]

lol people jump after the razor rangs hit sometimes and everything wiffs except the highs so itll be nice if f2 didn't miss too speaking of hitboxes