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How to balance Jade.

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
lol people jump after the razor rangs hit sometimes and everything wiffs except the highs so itll be nice if f2 didn't miss too speaking of hitboxes
The highs except for f2 and b2 both of which just whiff on jumping opponents lmao
 

Denny

Noob
Hi everyone, this is my first ever "how to balance" character. I've been going through most changes in my mind and since i've seen the jade community being quite active and talkive about this characters tech, frame data etc, i wanted to be part of it. Of course this isnt gonna be 100% accurate of what balance is / could be achieved but playing jade since launch and against opponents of every skill level i believe i can talk about this character.
First of all, i wanna say that jade is NOT a bad character by any means. I actually think she plays the meta very well. However, i do think she could receive some kind of "buffs" in order to make her more competitive on a high (and not only) level.

Lets get started with her STRENGTHS:


  1. Insanely good neutral control.
  2. Good zoning and stagers (If you combine both ED and JD).
  3. Great pokes with her D3 & D4.
  4. One of the best D2's in the game (Which makes her anti air almost everyone with ease).
  5. Counter zoning.
  6. Really annoying to go against.
Her WEAKNESSES go as follows:

  1. Really low damage output.
  2. She can be very predictable with her moves.
  3. Most of her specials are near death on block (However JD can bypass that with cancels and ED with correct spacing).
  4. Opponents are able to breakaway from most of her krushing blows (Her main source of damage) and only relies on one of them (I believe the shadow kick KB is really good and viable).
  5. No real comeback factor .
  6. Jade player has to be well aware of the MU and general knowledge to do well on a high level with her (Even though this is universal for every character).
Now that we have covered and talked about what makes her good and what doesnt, i can talk about how i can balance her.

Universal changes:


  • S2 has a slightly increased hit region.
  • F2 is now faster and covers the air above her, i'd probably make it between 24-26 frames and remove the blockstun. (Mainly because this is meant to punish low range pokes and wake ups, but even i am struggling to make it work as its supposed to).
  • Slightly increased damage to all of her normals by 2-3% (For example, make 212 cause around 14-15% instead of 12.5%).
  • 21 no longer whiffs during combos.
  • Her throw KB is now 310 damage and the opponent cant break away.
  • F41 is now -10 on block and make the second hit a mid (I dont see the reason for it being -14 when it literally leads to a knockdown).
Emerald Defender changes:

  • Razor rang is less minus on block if you do it raw. Maybe make it -18 or -19 on block just like kabals.
  • Upward razor rang starts up now faster at 18 frames.
  • I wish they would make her Upward razor rang or Edenian spark a base ability and maybe fit into this variation Delia's Dance so she has something safe to cancel her moves into.
Jaded changes:

  • Make pole vault cause slightly more damage, from 12% to 14-15% (Because she doesnt rely on zoning in this variation).
  • Make her amplified nitro kick +4 or +5 instead of +3 (So she can capitalize more on her plus frames and the bar spent).
Untameable: I dont really play this variation so i cant tell.

Questionable buffs:


  • MAYBE make her amplified razor rang jail.
  • MAYBE make her 124 KB come out on a counter or a punish. If its made like that, then we can skip the "Buff her damage" statement.
How NOT TO BUFF JADE: I've seen countless threads and texts that suggest we buff jade in different ways, which i think are dumb. Such as:

  • Make glow faster or make SOME projectiles not to bypass it (This has been suggested by Glortor so many times and i cant see the reason for it since its SUCH a powerful tool and shuts down entire gameplans.)
  • Make deadly butterfly safe.
  • Make her Nitro kick safe or a mid.
I believe those changes would be the best she can get before being "finished". And one last thing i wanna say is that, maybe a lot of people will find those "Fixes" too much as they might think that jade is "a pain to go against" but i also wanna see other characters buffed in a way that i have helped / suggested we help jade. Please discuss in a nice manner, thank you for reading =).
I see a heavy tendency on these boards of players trying to balance characters in and of themselves and I absolutely disagree with the notion that a player can possibly discern the hinges of game balance, unless this player plays every match-up at the highest of levels consistently. Please allow me to explain why.

First of all, "Game Balance" if there is such, exists across all variations and all match-ups thereof. There is no "single surefire way" of achieving such, other than watching and learning, over time. This is why certain changes are being made later on in a game's life cycle and this is why many problems we, as players perceive, will not be addressed. They are not problems, or there are workarounds and it is not necessary to spend the manpower on tracking them down in the ocean of code when most developers are usually already hard-pressed for time.

Secondly, I don't even think there is such a thing as "Game Balance" to begin with. MK11, and the previous two NRS games were both based on an extensive system of character concepts, which were based upon concepts of variety, novelty, just being interesting and fun. The "balance" of such a game hinges solely on the game's fundamentals such as the universal defenses and how closely related certain types of moves are. A character with good mids and a good reach on their universal launchers such as Black Adam or Geras would be among the best, while characters like Jade or Swamp Thing were unfortunately left "green", not quite ripe to be powerful characters.

Finally, every character is "good" in the last two games. Not so much in MKX, but that game conceived the latter two in the sense that they had ample data on what works and how it works.

How to "buff" Jade, you ask.
Nohow.

It's not Buffs that Jade needs at all.
This character's main problem is that nobody actually cares about her. Look how barren this subforum is.
The character is not popular and those who play her don't care enough to actually break her down and bring her issues to light other than the obscure recesses of Twitter, a couple friends of mine and some guy called Vis constantly screaming Jade is top tier for whatever reason.

What Jade needs is for the character to be properly explored, laid out, and then issues like her Staff Normals being bad, patched.
It's literally that even though she was in the Beta, she was never properly tested.

Jade is good.
Her frame data, hitboxes, hurtboxes, and the fact that she has no proper combo to punish people with, are not good.

So again, what Jade needs is to be tested and released out of Beta.
Just my two cents.
 
I see a heavy tendency on these boards of players trying to balance characters in and of themselves and I absolutely disagree with the notion that a player can possibly discern the hinges of game balance, unless this player plays every match-up at the highest of levels consistently. Please allow me to explain why.

First of all, "Game Balance" if there is such, exists across all variations and all match-ups thereof. There is no "single surefire way" of achieving such, other than watching and learning, over time. This is why certain changes are being made later on in a game's life cycle and this is why many problems we, as players perceive, will not be addressed. They are not problems, or there are workarounds and it is not necessary to spend the manpower on tracking them down in the ocean of code when most developers are usually already hard-pressed for time.

Secondly, I don't even think there is such a thing as "Game Balance" to begin with. MK11, and the previous two NRS games were both based on an extensive system of character concepts, which were based upon concepts of variety, novelty, just being interesting and fun. The "balance" of such a game hinges solely on the game's fundamentals such as the universal defenses and how closely related certain types of moves are. A character with good mids and a good reach on their universal launchers such as Black Adam or Geras would be among the best, while characters like Jade or Swamp Thing were unfortunately left "green", not quite ripe to be powerful characters.

Finally, every character is "good" in the last two games. Not so much in MKX, but that game conceived the latter two in the sense that they had ample data on what works and how it works.

How to "buff" Jade, you ask.
Nohow.

It's not Buffs that Jade needs at all.
This character's main problem is that nobody actually cares about her. Look how barren this subforum is.
The character is not popular and those who play her don't care enough to actually break her down and bring her issues to light other than the obscure recesses of Twitter, a couple friends of mine and some guy called Vis constantly screaming Jade is top tier for whatever reason.

What Jade needs is for the character to be properly explored, laid out, and then issues like her Staff Normals being bad, patched.
It's literally that even though she was in the Beta, she was never properly tested.

Jade is good.
Her frame data, hitboxes, hurtboxes, and the fact that she has no proper combo to punish people with, are not good.

So again, what Jade needs is to be tested and released out of Beta.
Just my two cents.
uhhhhhhh this characters is popular ....maybe not one of the MOST popular no but she has a huge following. Also the people who play her here have broken down everything about her EXTENSIVELY. The problem is nothing really changes and no NRS doesn't care about her THAT much. People have stopped talking about her here because it's been almost a year with nothing and she clearly isn't viable at the top level. I didn't play her in MK9 so I can't speak on that but many who did claimed she was low tier then and will always be low tier. I played mournful Kitana extensively in MKX and had a lot of fun with it. Even Kitana in this game who is one of the favorite characters has a raw deal in this game.
 

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Administrator
Premium Supporter
The only thing I would change for sure is having amp rang jail. It's a +7-on-block special that will literally never hit a blocking opponent, which is just straight dumb.

Otherwise, I think y'all might be playing her wrong... All of those strings you complain about being useless have their uses. I love f41. It's a nice, meaty, staggerable string that lands you a knockdown and allows you to get in and get your offense started. It would be nice is her hitboxes matched her animations, allowing things like f21 to more consistently anti-air, but it's not the end of the world.

Her punish damage is balls, but it sets up her pressure. If you land just two b343~bf1.amp, that's 36% damage into another mixup. Or b343~bf1.amp into a throw is 32%, which is not bad for a bar. Train the opponent to block low after amp rang with f32, which also cancels into amp rang to keep your pressure going.

Her jump-in pressure is insane. You should never get anti-aired while playing as Jade. If your opponent is good at anti-airing, train them to fear her air rangs. Amp air rang is massively plus on hit or block.

Jade is one of the few characters where I believe I use every one of her strings effectively. Sonya, Raiden, Shang, and others have 10,000 strings and you only end up using a few of them on most matches, but almost all of Jade's have some concrete function in most of the matches I play.

You can't expect to play Jade like Sonya, Liu, or any of the other top tiers. She's not going to be mixing you into 30%+ kombos non-stop, or staggering you for dozens of hits, but she doesn't need to. She forces those characters to have to get through her wall of b1, f2, up-rangs, air rangs, d4, and b2. She's a keepaway character, but most of the buffs I see people mention would make her more of a rush-down powerhouse. That's not Jade, and it would be boring if it was.

With all that combined, you have a character that's not the easiest to do well with, but is fully capable of doing well, and who leaves you with a greater satisfaction when you win with her. You didn't win because your opponent guessed wrong on too many 50/50s, you won because you outspaced and outplayed your opponent. I think Jade is one of the more fun characters to play, and I hate that all these "Jade mains" do nothing but complain about her. It's not helpful, it's not productive, and it makes TYM look bad.
 

Denny

Noob
Jade got an auto-KB the way half the cast has. Every Jade nearly every match will get Kick Kb now
No. It's not like Sub Zero's where you have to land so many of them a match to get a KB. You have to land Two In A Row.
No other button other than block and movement used in-between.
Which is not as easy as it sounds, go try it.
And its damage is not all that great for a single hit when most other characters do double that. See Liu Kang, Geras, Sonya etc. And they can combo into those things, or off of them.
 

Zer0_h0ur

XBL tag: South of Zero
No. It's not like Sub Zero's where you have to land so many of them a match to get a KB. You have to land Two In A Row.
No other button other than block and movement used inbetween.
Which is not as easy as it sounds, go try it.
Bruh
 

Denny

Noob
The only thing I would change for sure is having amp rang jail. It's a +7-on-block special that will literally never hit a blocking opponent, which is just straight dumb.

Otherwise, I think y'all might be playing her wrong... All of those strings you complain about being useless have their uses. I love f41. It's a nice, meaty, staggerable string that lands you a knockdown and allows you to get in and get your offense started. It would be nice is her hitboxes matched her animations, allowing things like f21 to more consistently anti-air, but it's not the end of the world.

Her punish damage is balls, but it sets up her pressure. If you land just two b343~bf1.amp, that's 36% damage into another mixup. Or b343~bf1.amp into a throw is 32%, which is not bad for a bar. Train the opponent to block low after amp rang with f32, which also cancels into amp rang to keep your pressure going.

Her jump-in pressure is insane. You should never get anti-aired while playing as Jade. If your opponent is good at anti-airing, train them to fear her air rangs. Amp air rang is massively plus on hit or block.

Jade is one of the few characters where I believe I use every one of her strings effectively. Sonya, Raiden, Shang, and others have 10,000 strings and you only end up using a few of them on most matches, but almost all of Jade's have some concrete function in most of the matches I play.

You can't expect to play Jade like Sonya, Liu, or any of the other top tiers. She's not going to be mixing you into 30%+ kombos non-stop, or staggering you for dozens of hits, but she doesn't need to. She forces those characters to have to get through her wall of b1, f2, up-rangs, air rangs, d4, and b2. She's a keepaway character, but most of the buffs I see people mention would make her more of a rush-down powerhouse. That's not Jade, and it would be boring if it was.

With all that combined, you have a character that's not the easiest to do well with, but is fully capable of doing well, and who leaves you with a greater satisfaction when you win with her. You didn't win because your opponent guessed wrong on too many 50/50s, you won because you outspaced and outplayed your opponent. I think Jade is one of the more fun characters to play, and I hate that all these "Jade mains" do nothing but complain about her. It's not helpful, it's not productive, and it makes TYM look bad.
"The only thing I would change" argument is still you trying to suggest balance for a game you cannot fully understand. Chances are if it jailed, there would be a character who'd also need changes and another because of the changes of that one. I want people on this board to understand this: the developers know what they are doing. The ONLY thing Jade NEEDS right now is to be LOOKED AT by the developers because the game has literally rushed past her with every other character getting balance changes except for her.

For whatever reason they decided that they'll introduce big damage combos and she suffers for it.

I see that you're trying to advocate that she's an amazing character and all that, well she is not. She's good, she can win matches, but she is still her Beta self and needs to be patched. HOW they do it, is up to them. I hope she'll get the Johnny Cage treatment soon.
 

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Administrator
Premium Supporter
"The only thing I would change" argument is still you trying to suggest balance for a game you cannot fully understand. Chances are if it jailed, there would be a character who'd also need changes and another because of the changes of that one. I want people on this board to understand this: the developers know what they are doing. The ONLY thing Jade NEEDS right now is to be LOOKED AT by the developers because the game has literally rushed past her with every other character getting balance changes except for her.

For whatever reason they decided that they'll introduce big damage combos and she suffers for it.

I see that you're trying to advocate that she's an amazing character and all that, well she is not. She's good, she can win matches, but she is still her Beta self and needs to be patched. HOW they do it, is up to them. I hope she'll get the Johnny Cage treatment soon.
Well, no, I'm not saying she needs a jailing +7-on-block move; I'm saying it's dumb that they gave her one but made it impossible to land. Not saying it's unbalanced, I'm saying it's dumb.

In back-to-back sentences you say the developers know what they're doing and then say what they should be doing. The rest of your post is then various statements undermining your "the devs know what they're doing" line.

I never said Jade is an amazing character, I said her mains do nothing but bitch about her. I think her only problem is she's not broken, you have to work to win with her, and so people assume she sucks in a game full of herp-derp characters. She's excellent at what she does: playing keepaway and frustrating her opponent.
 
Well, no, I'm not saying she needs a jailing +7-on-block move; I'm saying it's dumb that they gave her one but made it impossible to land. Not saying it's unbalanced, I'm saying it's dumb.

In back-to-back sentences you say the developers know what they're doing and then say what they should be doing. The rest of your post is then various statements undermining your "the devs know what they're doing" line.

I never said Jade is an amazing character, I said her mains do nothing but bitch about her. I think her only problem is she's not broken, you have to work to win with her, and so people assume she sucks in a game full of herp-derp characters. She's excellent at what she does: playing keepaway and frustrating her opponent.
isn't that so fun? Her full gameplay is keep away even though she has only one real zoning variation. Aren't there other characters that do that better then her and have better combos and damage? Cetrion? Shang? I get that she was built as a "zoner" so she pokes and has bad frames but what about her other two variations? There is no zoning with projectiles unless you count the extremely slow start up high razor rang.
 

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Administrator
Premium Supporter
isn't that so fun? Her full gameplay is keep away even though she has only one real zoning variation. Aren't there other characters that do that better then her and have better combos and damage? Cetrion? Shang? I get that she was built as a "zoner" so she pokes and has bad frames but what about her other two variations? There is no zoning with projectiles unless you count the extremely slow start up high razor rang.
If that's not fun for you, no one is forcing you to play her. Play Shang or Cetrion. I should specify, I only play Emerald Defender, as I think her other variations are trash.
 

John_NX

Your circumstances are dire!
If that's not fun for you, no one is forcing you to play her. Play Shang or Cetrion. I should specify, I only play Emerald Defender, as I think her other variations are trash.
Actually, Jaded is the best in my opinion. On a high -mid level emerald defender is very match up dependent.
 
Actually, Jaded is the best in my opinion. On a high -mid level emerald defender is very match up dependent.
I like it the best also.....not much in the way in combos buts it forces your opponent to guess more with the run cancel etc. I wish they did like sonic fox said and added "cool combos" to it. Emerald defender got stale to me way to fast although like you said it works very good against certain match ups.
 

Denny

Noob
Well, no, I'm not saying she needs a jailing +7-on-block move; I'm saying it's dumb that they gave her one but made it impossible to land. Not saying it's unbalanced, I'm saying it's dumb.

In back-to-back sentences you say the developers know what they're doing and then say what they should be doing. The rest of your post is then various statements undermining your "the devs know what they're doing" line.

I never said Jade is an amazing character, I said her mains do nothing but bitch about her. I think her only problem is she's not broken, you have to work to win with her, and so people assume she sucks in a game full of herp-derp characters. She's excellent at what she does: playing keepaway and frustrating her opponent.
She does not "suck". She's UNDERPERFORMING.
A lot of things about her make no sense and are "dumb", yes. But that's because when she was in BETA, quite apparently NOBODY bothered to look at her frame data and say "Wait a minute, Twenty Eight Frames?!". People who know their fighting game fundamentals should have all been up in arms about that if anyone cared for this character.

And yes, I think they know what they are doing but character popularity is a factor and she's unfortunately statistically successful enough in Jaded and not popular enough on the whole for her to be any sort of priority between how there's a lot of balancing to be made and how little time they have available to allocate.

I am not one of those people to claim that Jade is great, or bad. I think her problems make her mediocre at best, but she's playable in all three variations. I do not play online, only with a close circle of friends with whom we distribute the cast among us, train and explore the game as a hobby, so my experiences are strictly based on mathematically accurate match-ups and my guess is as good as anyone's who spends time in Practice Mode and knows what they are doing. I'm sure if you do not take her problems at face value and have 77 layers of yomi with sickening amount of abare to it, you can probably take her to a major and maybe even cash out in Grand Finals.
In lack of that and purely mathematically in comparison to the rest of the characters on the roster, she's substantially weaker than the rest.

I do think she could be amazing with just a little work. Between Kitana, Skarlet, Cassie, Sonya and her, Jade is the one I enjoy the most. If only she stopped whiffing as often as Scorpion teleports. :coffee:
 
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RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
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She does not "suck". She's UNDERPERFORMING.
A lot of things about her make no sense and are "dumb", yes. But that's because when she was in BETA, quite apparently NOBODY bothered to look at her frame data and say "Wait a minute, Twenty Eight Frames?!". People who know their fighting game fundamentals should have all been up in arms about that if anyone cared for this character.

And yes, I think they know what they are doing but character popularity is a factor and she's unfortunately statistically successful enough in Jaded and not popular enough on the whole for her to be any sort of priority between how there's a lot of balancing to be made and how little time they have available to allocate.

I am not one of those people to claim that Jade is great, or bad. I think her problems make her mediocre at best, but she's playable in all three variations. I do not play online, only with a close circle of friends with whom we distribute the cast among us, train and explore the game as a hobby, so my experiences are strictly based on mathematically accurate match-ups and my guess is as good as anyone's who spends time in Practice Mode and knows what they are doing. I'm sure if you do not take her problems at face value and have 77 layers of yomi with sickening amount of abare to it, you can probably take her to a major and maybe even cash out in Grand Finals.
In lack of that and purely mathematically in comparison to the rest of the characters on the roster, she's substantially weaker than the rest.

I do think she could be amazing with just a little work. Between Kitana, Skarlet, Cassie, Sonya and her, Jade is the one I enjoy the most. If only she stopped whiffing as often as Scorpion teleports. :coffee:
"apparently NOBODY bothered to look at her frame data and say 'Wait a minute, Twenty Eight Frames?!'."
"I do think she could be amazing with just a little work."
"A lot of things about her make no sense and are 'dumb'"

Don't you see that those are contradictory statements to, "And yes, I think they know what they are doing"?

"my experiences are strictly based on mathematically accurate match-ups" - That's called theorycrafting and it's almost always incredibly inaccurate. Looking at the frames, players exclaim you can react to Sub-Zero's mixups, and then you see Sonic Fox in training mode trying to react and failing more than 50% of the time. Your "mathematically accurate match-ups" don't take human error into account. Spending time in training mode is good for learning kombos and tech; it will not teach you how to play against a human opponent, no matter how much time you spend in there.

You don't need "77 layers of yomi" to do well with Jade. You just need a mild amount of patience and spacing ability.
 

Denny

Noob
"apparently NOBODY bothered to look at her frame data and say 'Wait a minute, Twenty Eight Frames?!'."
"I do think she could be amazing with just a little work."
"A lot of things about her make no sense and are 'dumb'"

Don't you see that those are contradictory statements to, "And yes, I think they know what they are doing"?

"my experiences are strictly based on mathematically accurate match-ups" - That's called theorycrafting and it's almost always incredibly inaccurate. Looking at the frames, players exclaim you can react to Sub-Zero's mixups, and then you see Sonic Fox in training mode trying to react and failing more than 50% of the time. Your "mathematically accurate match-ups" don't take human error into account. Spending time in training mode is good for learning kombos and tech; it will not teach you how to play against a human opponent, no matter how much time you spend in there.

You don't need "77 layers of yomi" to do well with Jade. You just need a mild amount of patience and spacing ability.
The first statement stands to reason that no Design is flawless and Developers need to see it at work, used by Players, to make up their minds about what there is to polish about it. Quite clearly nobody cared during Beta, which is why Jade is one of the weaker, less used characters right now. Proof: every Top Player who picked her, dropped her already. Sonic Fox himself said that it takes so much work to win even with Jaded, that there is currently no good reason to pick her over other characters who are Easier to even do Better with.
This fact does not contradict my statement that the Developers know what they are doing - it's simply that in Jade's case they are NOT doing it right now. :p
BECAUSE, as I said, she's not so popular and because Jaded is doing statistically well enough. Like you said, and like I said too: she can win.

And I do in fact think she could be AMAZING with just a little work. Cassie Cage level of Amazing. Sonya level of Amazing. The kind of Amazing that does not need to get Patched anymore because she's PERFECT. She currently isn't - like you noticed one facet in her design being, as you said, dumb.
This fact does not contradict my statement that the Developers know what they are doing - it's simply that she's not being looked at right now.

A lot of things about her make no sense and are dumb. Like how bad her combo damage is compared to basically every other character, the supposedly worse Shao Kahn included whose struggles are different and not the topic here, I'm just bringing him up because yeah, sadly he's struggling too.
This statement does not contradict my trust in the developers because again, she hasn't been touched in any majorly constructive capacity since Beta.
It does not mean they are idiots or I don't know what you are trying to say, it simply means they are Busy With More Important Things.

If we, the players, draw no attention to the fact that she's taking massive risks and other characters can do so freely against her because of how incomplete she is, she will never be better and I don't know what to say to you if you think she doesn't need to be.

No, it's called "Labbing" a character and having a "Community" with whom you "Break Down" a game. It's not inaccurate at all. I don't know who said you can react to Sub Zero's overhead but like you said, going to the "Lab" and TRYING THINGS (like I asked another player previously who said hogwash about overheads) will soon erase all doubt regarding "Theories".

Then again, you seem to be really knowledgeable and sure of yourself.
Looking forward to seeing you in winners finals in the next major, with Jade!
 

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Administrator
Premium Supporter
The first statement stands to reason that no Design is flawless and Developers need to see it at work, used by Players, to make up their minds about what there is to polish about it. Quite clearly nobody cared during Beta, which is why Jade is one of the weaker, less used characters right now. Proof: every Top Player who picked her, dropped her already. Sonic Fox himself said that it takes so much work to win even with Jaded, that there is currently no good reason to pick her over other characters who are Easier to even do Better with.
This fact does not contradict my statement that the Developers know what they are doing - it's simply that in Jade's case they are NOT doing it right now. :p
BECAUSE, as I said, she's not so popular and because Jaded is doing statistically well enough. Like you said, and like I said too: she can win.

And I do in fact think she could be AMAZING with just a little work. Cassie Cage level of Amazing. Sonya level of Amazing. The kind of Amazing that does not need to get Patched anymore because she's PERFECT. She currently isn't - like you noticed one facet in her design being, as you said, dumb.
This fact does not contradict my statement that the Developers know what they are doing - it's simply that she's not being looked at right now.

A lot of things about her make no sense and are dumb. Like how bad her combo damage is compared to basically every other character, the supposedly worse Shao Kahn included whose struggles are different and not the topic here, I'm just bringing him up because yeah, sadly he's struggling too.
This statement does not contradict my trust in the developers because again, she hasn't been touched in any majorly constructive capacity since Beta.
It does not mean they are idiots or I don't know what you are trying to say, it simply means they are Busy With More Important Things.

If we, the players, draw no attention to the fact that she's taking massive risks and other characters can do so freely against her because of how incomplete she is, she will never be better and I don't know what to say to you if you think she doesn't need to be.

No, it's called "Labbing" a character and having a "Community" with whom you "Break Down" a game. It's not inaccurate at all. I don't know who said you can react to Sub Zero's overhead but like you said, going to the "Lab" and TRYING THINGS (like I asked another player previously who said hogwash about overheads) will soon erase all doubt regarding "Theories".

Then again, you seem to be really knowledgeable and sure of yourself.
Looking forward to seeing you in winners finals in the next major, with Jade!
"The first statement stands to reason that no Design is flawless and Developers need to see it at work, used by Players, to make up their minds about what there is to polish about it."

So you have mathematically perfect matchup knowledge but NRS is incapable of using math to balance their game and must rely on the results of matches between human players?

You seem to make a lot of assumptions about why NRS has made certain design choices and then present those assumptions as facts. The truth is that none of us know why NRS makes the decisions and why some characters get buffed and others get nerfed. My best guess is that the development environment at NRS was/is so toxic that a lot of these decisions are being unloaded on minimum-wage interns. That assumption is at least based on evidence we have about the working conditions at NRS. I'm not sure what you're basing your assumptions on.

I don't know what the hell you're talking about in 90% of these posts, but I assume you're trying to say that labbing a character in training mode is enough to determine how good or bad they are against a human opponent. Is that close? If that's the case, I don't have enough time or desire to open that whole can of worms.

Rather than fight in a major, I'd rather fight you. If you play on PC (or pick up a PC copy for $20 on g2a) I would be happy to run a ft10 against you with me using Jade and you using whatever herp-derp character you want. I don't have a mathematically perfect matchup chart to tell me who will win, but I'm still feeling pretty confident. Not surprisingly, whenever I call out a Jade player on their nonsense, they refuse to play me, even when I had the game on PS4. It's almost like they're all talk and no substance.

In fact, how about this? If you don't have the game on PC, I will straight-up buy you a copy so we can play a ft10. If you win, great, you now have a free copy of the game on PC. But if you lose, you've got to repay the $20 cost of the game to me. And I will stream the set.
 

Denny

Noob
"The first statement stands to reason that no Design is flawless and Developers need to see it at work, used by Players, to make up their minds about what there is to polish about it."

So you have mathematically perfect matchup knowledge but NRS is incapable of using math to balance their game and must rely on the results of matches between human players?

You seem to make a lot of assumptions about why NRS has made certain design choices and then present those assumptions as facts. The truth is that none of us know why NRS makes the decisions and why some characters get buffed and others get nerfed. My best guess is that the development environment at NRS was/is so toxic that a lot of these decisions are being unloaded on minimum-wage interns. That assumption is at least based on evidence we have about the working conditions at NRS. I'm not sure what you're basing your assumptions on.

I don't know what the hell you're talking about in 90% of these posts, but I assume you're trying to say that labbing a character in training mode is enough to determine how good or bad they are against a human opponent. Is that close? If that's the case, I don't have enough time or desire to open that whole can of worms.

Rather than fight in a major, I'd rather fight you. If you play on PC (or pick up a PC copy for $20 on g2a) I would be happy to run a ft10 against you with me using Jade and you using whatever herp-derp character you want. I don't have a mathematically perfect matchup chart to tell me who will win, but I'm still feeling pretty confident. Not surprisingly, whenever I call out a Jade player on their nonsense, they refuse to play me, even when I had the game on PS4. It's almost like they're all talk and no substance.

In fact, how about this? If you don't have the game on PC, I will straight-up buy you a copy so we can play a ft10. If you win, great, you now have a free copy of the game on PC. But if you lose, you've got to repay the $20 cost of the game to me. And I will stream the set.
Whoa there, munchkin! :eek:
SOMEONE seems to be angry. Can you calm down please? Thank you.

I never said I had Perfect Match-up knowledge? I said in our community we use mathematical accuracy. A lot of people do that in games.
The point that I was trying to explain is that whether you like it or not, this character is nowhere near as prominent and effective as those that make it out of pools in tournaments. The reason for which, is that she has received very little attention while others have gotten changed quite a bit. Stagnant things tend to go obsolete, you know.

I'm sorry if you don't understand 90% of what I'm saying, but I think that's your problem, not mine.
I was trying to have a simple and civil conversation with you but you're so full of yourself that it's starting to get tedious.

At the end of the day it doesn't even matter what you or I think because NRS will do what they will, whether you have faith in them or not.
I tend to have faith in developers because
a. I'm one elsewhere and I know the rigours and
b. If you pay for a product you kind of sign a bit of a contract like, I just paid for what You Are Making, I Trust Your Development.

Playing with someone as hateful as you are?
No thanks.

I'll stick to my husband and friends.
 

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Administrator
Premium Supporter
Whoa there, munchkin! :eek:
SOMEONE seems to be angry. Can you calm down please? Thank you.

I never said I had Perfect Match-up knowledge? I said in our community we use mathematical accuracy. A lot of people do that in games.
The point that I was trying to explain is that whether you like it or not, this character is nowhere near as prominent and effective as those that make it out of pools in tournaments. The reason for which, is that she has received very little attention while others have gotten changed quite a bit. Stagnant things tend to go obsolete, you know.

I'm sorry if you don't understand 90% of what I'm saying, but I think that's your problem, not mine.
I was trying to have a simple and civil conversation with you but you're so full of yourself that it's starting to get tedious.

At the end of the day it doesn't even matter what you or I think because NRS will do what they will, whether you have faith in them or not.
I tend to have faith in developers because
a. I'm one elsewhere and I know the rigours and
b. If you pay for a product you kind of sign a bit of a contract like, I just paid for what You Are Making, I Trust Your Development.

Playing with someone as hateful as you are?
No thanks.

I'll stick to my husband and friends.
How am I being angry and hateful? I am disagreeing with you and pointing out a few issues with your responses, just as you've tried to point out issues with mine. That's not being hateful, that's having a conversation. In fact, you're the one now attacking me and not my arguments, so....

Anyway, I'm not surprised you won't back up your posts by actually playing matches. Par for the course for the Jade downplayers. The offer stands, though.
 

Agilaz

#ShangLivesMatter
Premium Supporter
Whoa there, munchkin! :eek:
SOMEONE seems to be angry. Can you calm down please? Thank you.

I never said I had Perfect Match-up knowledge? I said in our community we use mathematical accuracy. A lot of people do that in games.
The point that I was trying to explain is that whether you like it or not, this character is nowhere near as prominent and effective as those that make it out of pools in tournaments. The reason for which, is that she has received very little attention while others have gotten changed quite a bit. Stagnant things tend to go obsolete, you know.

I'm sorry if you don't understand 90% of what I'm saying, but I think that's your problem, not mine.
I was trying to have a simple and civil conversation with you but you're so full of yourself that it's starting to get tedious.

At the end of the day it doesn't even matter what you or I think because NRS will do what they will, whether you have faith in them or not.
I tend to have faith in developers because
a. I'm one elsewhere and I know the rigours and
b. If you pay for a product you kind of sign a bit of a contract like, I just paid for what You Are Making, I Trust Your Development.

Playing with someone as hateful as you are?
No thanks.

I'll stick to my husband and friends.
Translation: "no thx i'll get mopped lol"

I don't have a horse in the race I just want TYM beef to actually turn into match footage for once :joker:
 

Denny

Noob
Translation: "no thx i'll get mopped lol"

I don't have a horse in the race I just want TYM beef to actually turn into match footage for once :joker:
I mean, I prefaced this whole thing with "I do not play online, just with friends in my gaming community".
Exactly because of how this man behaves when all I said was "Hey, I think Jade could be better, but let's not pretend to be NRS developers and act like we know what's the 'Only Thing She Needs'"
I'm NOT comfortable fighting people online, I'm sorry.
But if that's what it translates for you to, why don't -you- go and fight him? :DOGE

How am I being angry and hateful?
You just admitted that you don't even understand what I'm saying.
You come from this angle where you're superior and "FITE ME BRO. FITE ME." as if beating you in a mirror, or with my main, would validate my opinion over yours, or yours over mine. It doesn't work that way.

I was telling you simple stuff and you were raging at me.
Like @John_NX suggested:
Let's just stop.

Time to feed the kids.
No, you don't get any you've been bad.
 

Agilaz

#ShangLivesMatter
Premium Supporter
I mean, I prefaced this whole thing with "I do not play online, just with friends in my gaming community".
Exactly because of how this man behaves when all I said was "Hey, I think Jade could be better, but let's not pretend to be NRS developers and act like we know what's the 'Only Thing She Needs'"
I'm NOT comfortable fighting people online, I'm sorry.
But if that's what it translates for you to, why don't -you- go and fight him? :DOGE
I mean if he wants to, I'll play him? I do agree with him though, Jade is being downplayed and I say this as somebody who's spent a fair bit of time playing her.

His reaction is also completely understandable if you're basing your conclusions on non-competitive situations. Reminds me of when MagicManlet was still around and trying to convince people that playing towers is better for experience than playing sets with other good players
 

Denny

Noob
I mean if he wants to, I'll play him? I do agree with him though, Jade is being downplayed and I say this as somebody who's spent a fair bit of time playing her.

His reaction is also completely understandable if you're basing your conclusions on non-competitive situations. Reminds me of when MagicManlet was still around and trying to convince people that playing towers is better for experience than playing sets with other good players
I am Not down- or up- or across- or through-playing Jade at all OMG :confused:
For one last time: I'm saying she's weaker than the strong characters, but she can win. I just wish she was better. Or do you think she's as strong as Upgraded?! HOW??
I also said, literally: Let's not pretend like we are NRS Developers because we only really see a Small Slice of the entire game.
The Developers have statistics and they WILL change things when they think it's necessary.