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MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

Wigy

Wigy

There it is...
I'm not saying they're bad.

Just a triple grounded jab strings are basically always better and staggerable mids.

Cage has neither. Like in general with cage his stagger game is unconventional but still totally functional. It's not the best but he's also pretty plus after, not that he can capitalise.
 
jcbowie

jcbowie

...more deadly than the dawn.
Wigy said:
I'm not saying they're bad.

Just a triple grounded jab strings are basically always better and staggerable mids.

Cage has neither. Like in general with cage his stagger game is unconventional but still totally functional. It's not the best but he's also pretty plus after.
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Totally right, definitely not the #1 stagger moveset in the game. But he definitely does have some strong, high staggers that do set him up for strong and easy hit confirms. His primary strengths lie more in space control than point blank staggers anyways.
 
Wigy

Wigy

There it is...
Agreed.

Functional but not his staggers aren't particularly strong compared with most of the cast.
 
jcbowie

jcbowie

...more deadly than the dawn.
Wigy said:
Agreed.

Functional but not his staggers aren't particularly strong compared with most of the cast.
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Dunno if that's quite right either. "Compared with most of the cast" is a bit loaded. Probably not as good as Kabal or Jax or Jacqui, the godlike stagger monsters, but in the realm of someone like Noob (9f mid but no really distinctly "staggerable" moves) or Lao. And then I would say obviously better than someone like Kano, riddled with highs, or Kotal, with really slow buttons, distinctly above the really poor stagger characters.
 
Name v.5.0

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
You can’t exactly consider Cage’s stagger ability as good, simply because it’s all fucking highs. You wanna stagger? Be prepared to eat shit. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again...it’s completely based on reads. If you’re good at reads, Cage can kick ass. If you’re not, you’re going to die.

Ever play a long set with him? Your opponent will eventually get so comfortable that nothing works. Everything is blocked, throws are consistently teched or beat.

The problem is simply the lack of any decent mid. Fuck plus frames. They do get you mileage, but they wont win games against a patient, knowledgable player. Especially if they’re playing a strong counter to Cage.

I do not think Cage is bad, just ok and neglected. I believe he could be evened out with some better KBs. That’s really all I want because currently I feel insulted. His KBs are mostly garbage, and we’ve basically been told his forceballs missing is part of the design. Fuck that. I mean, look at this third variation. $100 says the low forceballs still whiffs like crazy, and we still won’t get more than one useable KB. Why?!? Why the fuck did Kitana get so much love? What does NRS know that we don’t?

We aren’t asking for an OP character...we’re asking to not be insulted.
 
Hellz HitmaN

Hellz HitmaN

Noob
Name v.5.0 said:
You can’t exactly consider Cage’s stagger ability as good, simply because it’s all fucking highs. You wanna stagger? Be prepared to eat shit. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again...it’s completely based on reads. If you’re good at reads, Cage can kick ass. If you’re not, you’re going to die.

Ever play a long set with him? Your opponent will eventually get so comfortable that nothing works. Everything is blocked, throws are consistently teched or beat.

The problem is simply the lack of any decent mid. Fuck plus frames. They do get you mileage, but they wont win games against a patient, knowledgable player. Especially if they’re playing a strong counter to Cage.

I do not think Cage is bad, just ok and neglected. I believe he could be evened out with some better KBs. That’s really all I want because currently I feel insulted. His KBs are mostly garbage, and we’ve basically been told his forceballs missing is part of the design. Fuck that. I mean, look at this third variation. $100 says the low forceballs still whiffs like crazy, and we still won’t get more than one useable KB. Why?!? Why the fuck did Kitana get so much love? What does NRS know that we don’t?

We aren’t asking for an OP character...we’re asking to not be insulted.
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i don't feel insulted. he doesn't have KBs but he has unbreakable damage every time. there is always room to outplay - even in a long set. i don't get the negativity

he has great strengths, is fun to play, hitting fb cancel combos for the win is mad satisfying... i don't share your mindset
 
Wigy

Wigy

There it is...
Hellz HitmaN said:
i don't feel insulted. he doesn't have KBs but he has unbreakable damage every time. there is always room to outplay - even in a long set. i don't get the negativity

he has great strengths, is fun to play, hitting fb cancel combos for the win is mad satisfying... i don't share your mindset
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I mean you enjoying the character isn't really relevent to what he's saying and outside of his FB cancels he doesn't have out of the ordinary grounded damage.
 
jcbowie

jcbowie

...more deadly than the dawn.
Wigy said:
I mean you enjoying the character isn't really relevent to what he's saying and outside of his FB cancels he doesn't have out of the ordinary grounded damage.
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His point isn't just that he "enjoys the character," he said Johnny was fun to play with the strengths that he has instead of complaining that he's not based around mid staggers.

Outside of his FB cancels, which is a pretty significant thing, Johnny still has over 25% unbreakable regular combo damage accessible really simply. It's definitely exceptional, most characters don't have unbreakable damage that good, and it helps you make comebacks without losing your momentum to a breakaway.
 
Wigy

Wigy

There it is...
jcbowie said:
His point isn't just that he "enjoys the character," he said Johnny was fun to play with the strengths that he has instead of complaining that he's not based around mid staggers.

Outside of his FB cancels, which is a pretty significant thing, Johnny still has over 25% unbreakable regular combo damage accessible really simply. It's definitely exceptional, most characters don't have unbreakable damage that good, and it helps you make comebacks without losing your momentum to a breakaway.
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Kollector, sub, Cassie, frost, geras, Kang can probably all get that off the top of my head.

Not to mention a launcher into d2 will often do that as well and cover roll outs. Also all the unbreakable damage cage leaves off the table without any good kbs.

I'm not saying it's not useful but Its really not like amazing by any respect. Geras turns into touch into 310 plus restand lol.

It's a good tool don't get me wrong. Just let's not blow it out of proportion, it only gets very noteworthy with the fb cancel.
 
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jcbowie

jcbowie

...more deadly than the dawn.
Wigy said:
Kollector, sub, Cassie, frost, geras, Kang can probably all get that off the top of my head.

Not to mention a launcher into d2 will often do that as well and cover roll outs. Also all the unbreakable damage cage leaves off the table without any good kbs.

I'm not saying it's not useful but Its really not like amazing by any respect. Geras turns into touch into 310 plus restand lol.

It's a good tool don't get me wrong. Just let's not blow it out of proportion, it only gets very noteworthy with the fb cancel.
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Comparing a single aspect of Cage to only characters that also excel in an area of his strength doesn't detract from the fact that his unbreakable damage is very good. That's like saying Cetrion is really weak because there are other characters in the game with good staggers.

And the power of a one-off KB unbreakable 50% damage combo as his upper limit is absolutely the best in the game, no one else can get that kind of damage unbreakable AFAIK and certainly not without using up their fatal blow. Can't understate it, you can't really brush that off as insignificant.

Plus, Cage's unbreakable damage keeps them standing and puts him at frame advantage, not the case for some of those mentioned above, so there's no risk of breakaway or possible disadvantage at all.

Could have better KB's for sure, but also could have worse general damage.
 
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Name v.5.0

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
Hellz HitmaN said:
i don't feel insulted. he doesn't have KBs but he has unbreakable damage every time. there is always room to outplay - even in a long set. i don't get the negativity

he has great strengths, is fun to play, hitting fb cancel combos for the win is mad satisfying... i don't share your mindset
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I'm really not trying to be negative. That's not my intent at all. In fact, I totally agree with your last sentence. I play with Cage 90% of the time and I do pretty well. I have a positive win record, I've made God in KL every season....I can't complain about it. Any negativity I have at all comes directly from pro players saying he's way better than he is, which will inevitably result in no changes to things that are legitimately insulting(land 2 extended mime times or first hit! Ok NRS, sure.), or at worst, he'll be nerfed.

It takes a lot of effort to play Cage, and I don't want it to end up taking even more. That's why my main 2 alts, Geras and Nightwolf, are my alts. They're brain dead easy to play and have actual mids and KBs.
 
DrFolmer

DrFolmer

AKA Uncle Kano
I keep forgetting Showstopper is pretty good stuff. I just see "JOHNNY TOP 3 EASY" and I look at my Shock Jock Johnny and go like "huh, and here I thought I did work lul"
 
Rip Torn

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
Hellz HitmaN said:
I def play Johnny. Had 200+ games played with him last season.

Staggers: 12, f3, 2, standing 3, and standing 34. All are effective. Mixup with completing the string, throw, or d4. Get creative.

Plus frame followups: After 124, 34u3, or ex forceballs, you have the mindgame. Will they backup? Will they backdash? Will they crouch? Will they jump? Will they respect? Make the read. It's in your favor every time. f3 catches jumps, f44 catches crouching and most pokes, b34 whiff punishes pokes, dash forward f344 catches walkback and backdash. If you're unsure, throw a forceball.

Restand: After f21 on hit, mix up with throw, 2, and 244. You can do basically anything here. You can guarantee this situation with every ex-camera.

I'm not saying he is top tier. I'm saying he is good and can hold his own with the majority of the cast. He is a solid character with plenty of tools to win.

This level of downplay makes you sound bad.
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This guy gets it. All the people complaining about how his plus frames are meaningless need to read the Plus Frames followups section.
 
L

LMNYHappyDaze

Noob
Where do yall think Johhny places on the tier list? Honestly. I personally think he's the best of the mid tier and he can definitely do work. But a character with a long D4/female hit box just makes life kinda hard for me.
 
M.D.

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Rip Torn said:
This guy gets it. All the people complaining about how his plus frames are meaningless need to read the Plus Frames followups section.
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And all of you upplayers need to play the game against competent adversaries.

Still in the mountains so I can't yet post all answers but the plus frames are meaningless as plus frames since they don't guarantee anything. It's just a guess like it is in neutral. Backdash beats all and in corner they don't even guarantee throw because pushback.

they only guarantee d4, and if you say plus frames that guarantee only d4 is top tier compared to the ACTUAL top tier of the game then we're done here.


And another thing. You can not have top tier with 5-5s. Top tiers need many 6-4.

How many 6-4 does Cage have? As top tier he should have at least as many as Kang Geras Sonya etc.
A top tier shouldn't have 4-6 much. Look at kang.

So? Who does Cage 6-4 ?
Who 4-6 him?

Once you answer this you will see how top my ass tier he is.
 
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jcbowie

jcbowie

...more deadly than the dawn.
M.D. said:
And all of you upplayers need to play the game against competent adversaries.

Still in the mountains so I can't yet post all answers but the plus frames are meaningless as plus frames since they don't guarantee anything. It's just a guess like it is in neutral. Backdash beats all and in corner they don't even guarantee throw because pushback.

they only guarantee d4, and if you say plus frames that guarantee only d4 is top tier compared to the ACTUAL top tier of the game then we're done here.


And another thing. You can not have top tier with 5-5s. Top tiers need many 6-4.

How many 6-4 does Cage have? As top tier he should have at least as many as Kang Geras Sonya etc.
A top tier shouldn't have 4-6 much. Look at kang.

So? Who does Cage 6-4 ?
Who 4-6 him?

Once you answer this you will see how top my ass tier he is.
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It's abundantly clear you just have no idea what you're talking about bro. Just randomly saying "b-but all his matchups are 4-6!!!" and just hand-waving away his great frames because they don't suit your downplay.

We clearly did our homework, responded to everything you complained about, now's a chance to do yours. Demonstrate incontrovertibly to me that he overwhelmingly loses matchups to the rest of the cast. Otherwise, maybe it'd be wise to stop whining boss.
 
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