Rant

[spidey300]

It's still on my mind. Maybe some of the biggest bullshit about the development of mk11. 16 bit said something like the moves weren't made to make it into tournament variations. So either they had absolutely no idea what to do with them when they didn't want to allow customs or they're just purposely making moves with the knowledge that they won't see use competitively, tournaments or ranked. This variation shit or this ability shit gotta go or both. Either whole characters or variations with no extra half assery. If Injustice 3 comes with this shit then I'm probably not buying

 

[JeffX]

I mean, I don't disagree with you, but if you look at the pattern, the game launched with some of the tamer abilities with the exception of a few characters (Geras, Erron etc). They may have wanted to see how it develops before opening it up the the crazy stuff, like Misery Blade and Kollector's coin toss. I mean subzero now has a tournament legal Overhead to low that combos in the corner. I'd like Injustice 3 to take a step back and dispense with all of the variation crap as well though. Just put more into the base character design and it's okay to leave certain things on the cutting room floor.

 

[spidey300]

I mean, I don't disagree with you, but if you look at the pattern, the game launched with some of the tamer abilities with the exception of a few characters (Geras, Erron etc). They may have wanted to see how it develops before opening it up the the crazy stuff, like Misery Blade and Kollector's coin toss. I mean subzero now has a tournament legal Overhead to low that combos in the corner. I'd like Injustice 3 to take a step back and dispense with all of the variation crap as well though. Just put more into the base character design and it's okay to leave certain things on the cutting room floor.

I get that and my ideal future for the game would have been to open up customs with balance but if they can't handle than then they shouldn't have done this at all. I want fleshed out characters with fleshed out normals, strings, and specials.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

It's not new -- this was done in Injustice 2 as well. It's worked out better for the balance of the game so far, and they are introducing them as they have time to see how everything plays.

 

[theotherguy]

I replied to another similar post here: https://testyourmight.com/threads/discussion-the-unprecedented-stated-of-mk11.71900/post-2589638

last few paragraphs:

If there were no variations half of those extra moves would never see the light of day because most characters wouldn't have more than 5 equipped anyway.

If there were no variations in MK11 and most characters had one or the other of the current variations, would people still be complaining as much? Possibly, but i don't think so, simply because they don't feel like there's something in the game that could have made it better. EG: Kitana up fan, scorpions misery blade etc.

Customs definitely change things up, but not being a complete character... no.

 

[spidey300]

It's not new -- this was done in Injustice 2 as well. It's worked out better for the balance of the game so far, and they are introducing them as they have time to see how everything plays.

I pointed out Injustice 3 because they did the same thing for Injustice 2. I don't want this system back or implemented in any form. Variations or fleshed out characters one or the other

 

[spidey300]

I replied to another similar post here: https://testyourmight.com/threads/discussion-the-unprecedented-stated-of-mk11.71900/post-2589638

last few paragraphs:

They break it up even more by having variations and having locked away abilities. Scorpion had 5 specials in mk9. He kept most of those specials in to mkx and got more specials. I just want this extra ability system to stop. Made characters in Injustice 2 like redhood, a character I was extremely excited about, the most bland character they could.

 

[just_2swift]

I can't wait till this is scrapped and I have complete characters again. It honestly should have stayed in mkx that was it's vocal point and it's weakness.

 

[GLoRToR]

It's a selling point for the game. "Look all these characters have all these moves you can use!!!" While in reality, the game would be much better off if we had 30 characters, each with their own single moveset. Even that would have balance issues but it would be a lot less trouble.
The vast majority of people out there don't care for tournaments, tournament variations or even frame data. They buy games on impulse and they want to see movie monsters and tons of random shit in games.

 

[spidey300]

I can't wait till this is scrapped and I have complete characters again. It honestly should have stayed in mkx that was it's vocal point and it's weakness.

Even in mkx it was tolerable. Yeah there were obvious go to variations but they could at least be improved on. Inj2 and mk11, these are moves created to not see the light of competition because that wasn't their design philosophy

 

[theotherguy]

these are moves created to not see the light of competition because that wasn't their design philosophy

If they want to spend the time on things that aren't going to be used that's NRS' problem, not yours. At least not yours directly.

If you read the post i linked to, the point was that characters way back since the days before 8bit consoles only ever had 3-4 special moves and they were "complete". Now we have characters with a base moveset and a subset of ~10 possible specials, but apparently these are barebones characters. And that is bullshit, because the only reason they're being seen in that way is because there's the potential of other options, but it doesn't take away from a particular variation loadout.

You can't look at a variation as what it could be based on the possible extra moves, you need to see it as it's own character. If someone doesn't like it, then maybe that character variation isn't for them and they should look for an archetype that they want to play as instead.

 

[spidey300]

If they want to spend the time on things that aren't going to be used that's NRS' problem, not yours. At least not yours directly.

If you read the post i linked to, the point was that characters way back since the days before 8bit consoles only ever had 3-4 special moves and they were "complete". Now we have characters with a base moveset and a subset of ~10 possible specials, but apparently these are barebones characters. And that is bullshit, because the only reason they're being seen in that way is because there's the potential of other options, but it doesn't take away from a particular variation loadout.

You can't look at a variation as what it could be based on the possible extra moves, you need to see it as it's own character. If someone doesn't like it, then maybe that character variation isn't for them and they should look for an archetype that they want to play as instead.

it sounds like you're defending this bullshit. i think with mkx it was fine. moves split across characters to create different archetypes. creating moves for the sake of creating moves and stripping down characters is bullshit. even in this day and age characters in fighting games get at most 4-5 specials. i don't want to see other specials being created for the sake of creating specials and then cutting them off from certain modes or when they just throw together specials to hastily create variations because they can't balance customs

 

[Tony at Home]

Every fighting game developed is going to have moves left on the cutting room floor. Things devs did animations for and created but didn't work balance wise and couldn't make it to the final game.

The only difference here is we get to toy with what would normally be completely unavailable in custom matches, and some of it is making it into the game via post launch support.

NRS started adding moves to characters post launch as early as Injustice 1 (see Ares). But now it's suddenly an issue because the moves weren't completely absent in the game leading up to their addition to competitive play.

TLR;
Almost every fighting game has this whether its evident or not- moves get scrapped. And it's silly to complain about it only when you have the added feature of being able to use them in some form now or later.

 

[spidey300]

Every fighting game developed is going to have moves left on the cutting room floor. Things devs did animations for and created but didn't work balance wise and couldn't make it to the final game.

The only difference here is we get to toy with what would normally be completely unavailable in custom matches, and some of it is making it into the game via post launch support.

NRS started adding moves to characters post launch as early as Injustice 1 (see Ares). But now it's suddenly an issue because the moves weren't completely absent in the game leading up to their addition to competitive play.

TLR;
Almost every fighting game has this whether its evident or not- moves get scrapped. And it's silly to complain about it only when you have the added feature of being able to use them in some form now or later.

ok but that's not the case here. i've played a lot of fighting games where characters have received new moves in future updates. I'm tired of inj2 and mk11 having a whole subset of moves that were clearly not designed to be part of a characters moveset. it sounds like their design philosophy is that these moves were to be strictly customs only. if they pulled this shit in other fighting games, people would be mad there too.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Every fighting game developed is going to have moves left on the cutting room floor. Things devs did animations for and created but didn't work balance wise and couldn't make it to the final game.

The only difference here is we get to toy with what would normally be completely unavailable in custom matches, and some of it is making it into the game via post launch support.

NRS started adding moves to characters post launch as early as Injustice 1 (see Ares). But now it's suddenly an issue because the moves weren't completely absent in the game leading up to their addition to competitive play.

TLR;
Almost every fighting game has this whether its evident or not- moves get scrapped. And it's silly to complain about it only when you have the added feature of being able to use them in some form now or later.

This completely went over his head and I don't think most people actually get this. If it wasn't for this we just wouldn't be playing with the moves period.

 

[just_2swift]

You know what is rant Worthy? Liu kang is a better grapple character than kotal Kahn and has a better teleport than Kung Lao. Let's talk about it.

 

[xWildx]

NRS needs to leave variations out altogether. Normals and specials need to be designed in tandem, lest you have a mess of a design like Sonya (super zoning AND 50/50s) and Quan Chi (MKX.... enough said) or the opposite end of the spectrum (characters like Kotal, Kitana, etc. that seem to have no defined playstyle while also not excelling at anything).

Give me a single, fully functional character, with specials and normals that compliment each other, rather than throwing things together with a move set and hoping it all works as intended.

 

[xenogorgeous]

bad call, crap decision, that's it ..... you have this only in MK .... Street Fighter, Tekken, KOF, etc, none of this others great fighting games franchises suffer with this "indecision" regarding what special moves will take part on the final build of the game .....

why bother to put these special moves in the game, if, in the end, your target audience, your customers / clients AKA fanbase, cannot enjoy 100% of it at competitive level ? pointelss, dumb and stupid decision to limit the game on account of this , would rather these moves , so, might would not even be in the game in the first place .... love MK but this feature in MK11 is a fucking bullshit , none doubt about it !

 

[spidey300]

This completely went over his head and I don't think most people actually get this. If it wasn't for this we just wouldn't be playing with the moves period.

Look everyone. Shill master crimson shadow thinks I don't get it. Also believes what we've received for the last 3 nrs games is ok.

 

[OzzFoxx]

They did rush the game out, just be happy it’s the last third of special moves coming out over time instead of character packs released over seasons

 

[Marlow]

I think it's a matter of perspective. I like the variation system because it gives the developers a chance to design moves with the freedom of just trying to make something fun or interesting, and not have to worry about balance. And then they can actually include the move in the game, instead of leaving it on the cutting room floor.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I get that and my ideal future for the game would have been to open up customs with balance but if they can't handle than then they shouldn't have done this at all. I want fleshed out characters with fleshed out normals, strings, and specials.

I get it man. I want full characters as well. No limitations but I gotta say they really have made this game far more balanced than MXK or MK9.
I think it might have been a good thing that they took the wait and see approach instead of just throwing everything in there unhinged.
I've been an advocate of customs since day 1 but I'm realizing that if it where that way we would have resets, infinites, blockstuns, vortexes and many more unbalanced things.

MKX for example had +20 on block cancels, true 50/50's that looped into 50/50's with some having tick throws on them, HTBs, Resets, Unblockables and you name it all on a single character.
In 11 all people can complain about is 9f mids, basic strike/throw mix that every fighting game has.

They are not perfect but I think the approach of MK11 they have kept most of what we complained about from MK9 & X out of this game and the slots are a way to limit characters brokeness possibility.
Every character can play Strike/Throw and that's what's important.

If I wanted anything in MK11 it would be more combo paths and opportunities to juggle longer.
Freedom to choose our moves but I feel that would require adjustment of many moves and slots.
Option to decline WiFi and ping above 100ms.
Hitboxes and Hurtboxes fixed across the cast.

 

[Tony at Home]

The "Full Characters" vs "Chopped up variations" talking point is so empty.

Actually go back and count how many special moves that characters had in MK9 and compare to MK11 variations.

There's overwhelmingly no significant difference.

 

[theotherguy]

why bother to put these special moves in the game, if, in the end, your target audience, your customers / clients AKA fanbase, cannot enjoy 100% of it at competitive level ?

Because not everyone wants to play it at a competitive level. You may find this hard to believe, but casual players buying the game is what keeps the money rolling in for NRS/WB.

It was the highest selling game the few months after it's release. Topping out the big hitters, COD, Smash, Destiny etc.

They're selling millions of copies yet it's still 3rd place in the biggest FG tournament there is. That says they have a huge number of casuals buying the game.

pointelss, dumb and stupid decision to limit the game on account of this , would rather these moves , so, might would not even be in the game in the first place ...

Going back to the "we've lost something because we can't use them" thinking, instead of "look at all these extra things we can do on top of the default tournament standard variations".

There's no doubt customs would have been fun but there's 100% certainty there would be just as much, if not more complaining due to all the broken-ness that it would cause.

Give me a single, fully functional character, with specials and normals that compliment each other, rather than throwing things together with a move set and hoping it all works as intended.

Which is why they have the set variations instead of a free for all choose your own character variation as a tournament standard where money is on the line.

We can complain as much as we want, but MK11 is the way it is. Maybe they should just drop all the extra variations and leave just variation #1... everyone would be happy, right?

 

[xenogorgeous]

Because not everyone wants to play it at a competitive level. You may find this hard to believe, but casual players buying the game is what keeps the money rolling in for NRS/WB.

It was the highest selling game the few months after it's release. Topping out the big hitters, COD, Smash, Destiny etc.

They're selling millions of copies yet it's still 3rd place in the biggest FG tournament there is. That says they have a huge number of casuals buying the game.



Going back to the "we've lost something because we can't use them" thinking, instead of "look at all these extra things we can do on top of the default tournament standard variations".

There's no doubt customs would have been fun but there's 100% certainty there would be just as much, if not more complaining due to all the broken-ness that it would cause.



Which is why they have the set variations instead of a free for all choose your own character variation as a tournament standard where money is on the line.

We can complain as much as we want, but MK11 is the way it is. Maybe they should just drop all the extra variations and leave just variation #1... everyone would be happy, right?

fair point ..... sometimes we forget about that, that majority of revenue profit , at least 90% of total sales numbers, came of/from the noobs and scrubs casuals fans , lol ! despite, the part of pros players and serious competitive being much more fun to be appreciated ......

cannot stand seeing 5 minutes of casual videos of MK11 in youtube or twitch , hehe .... I much prefer the competitive high level tourney season, but, yeah, if its the reality knocking the door, it is what we have to accept, that the variation system will never, ever , be build around the pro scene, instead, some part will be release for it, while the 100% free customization will be only for the fun modes ..... life is unfair and a shit , right ? hehe