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Lord Raiden General Discussion Thread

JeffX

JeffX

Remove armor on fatal blows now
Mandolore1123 said:
B12 can be made completely safe. In Raijin with buff you should always cancel into DF2 on block and DB4 on hit. It’s basic stuff and eliminates your concern of B12 being unsafe. This alone will open up staggers for B1 and B12. B12 having one hit being high means it is bad for use in delayed WU situations where the second hit whiffs and you get D2, but that’s where B14 comes in. Sure it sucks and could probably use some sort of buff but it’s an option so it should be used. In TW you can make B12 quasi-safe by doing fly cancels or far teleport, both cost resources and you are still punishable on read by fast far-reaching specials but then the mix-up is whether or not you do the fly cancel. He’s not really a pressure character. His options after B12 are designed to bait out movement from the opponent and he can punish with his plethora of whiff-punishing moves (B12, F11, F4)

F11 is already safe. Why are you using F112 anyway? Idk how I would make this move useful but DO NOT make it like Kotal’s B223. It’s full combo punishable when you interrupt with D1. That’s even worse than F112 now.

I agree with lightning strike changes and have been a proponent of that since day 1.

Raiden isn’t a good character by any means but he still plays MK11 well enough. He just need lightning strike changes and maybe (big maybe) some touches to frame data. Being -6 isn’t a huge deal in this game because of flawless block reversal. You get punished for trying to take your turn after F3/F32 and you eat at minimum 17%. Can we please at least wait until the patch drops before proclaiming stuff is bad when we don’t know how NRS will change the character yet? How can you make a fair assessment of the 3rd variation when currently Jo push replaces lightning bolt and we clearly know that’s not the case in the coming build?
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Most people are going to disagree with you here. You're answer to F112 is why are you even using it? Exactly. It should have a utility.

F1 does catch people jumping on wake up, but you have better options to throw out in the neutral.

b12 in thunder wave always costs resources to make safe. The B12 string should absolutely be made safe or we get a reduction on resource dependency. (ie electric fly not costing any meter.) When jacqui briggs can cancels for free off of most of her strings at -2, Raiden shouldn't have to spend defense bar every time he wants to remain safe.
 
Gooberking

Gooberking

FGC Cannon Fodder
JeffX said:
Most people are going to disagree with you here. You're answer to F112 is why are you even using it? Exactly. It should have a utility.

F1 does catch people jumping on wake up, but you have better options to throw out in the neutral.

b12 in thunder wave always costs resources to make safe. The B12 string should absolutely be made safe or we get a reduction on resource dependency. (ie electric fly not costing any meter.) When jacqui briggs can cancels for free off of most of her strings at -2, Raiden shouldn't have to spend defense bar every time he wants to remain safe.
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F112 has a use. You don't do it and play it safe until they are conditioned or try to walk out of range. Then you can do it or use an ender to break pattern. Both of those put you at risk, and there are already plenty of things in the game like that where you have unsafe option paths to keep things from locking up.

The thing doesn't have a hurt box and you were advocating for it to be plus (or at least someone back there did anyway). That seems like something nobody is going to want to have to deal with on the other side of the pole. As it stands, it has far more utility than a lot of random strings in the game nobody uses. The f11 part on its own is so hit confirmable into combo that even my old ass can do it. I doubt F112 being unsafe is a major part of what makes him low tier.
 
JeffX

JeffX

Remove armor on fatal blows now
Gooberking said:
F112 has a use. You don't do it and play it safe until they are conditioned or try to walk out of range. Then you can do it or use an ender to break pattern. Both of those put you at risk, and there are already plenty of things in the game like that where you have unsafe option paths to keep things from locking up.

The thing doesn't have a hurt box and you were advocating for it to be plus (or at least someone back there did anyway). That seems like something nobody is going to want to have to deal with on the other side of the pole. As it stands, it has far more utility than a lot of random strings in the game nobody uses. The f11 part on its own is so hit confirmable into combo that even my old ass can do it. I doubt F112 being unsafe is a major part of what makes him low tier.
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This is actually the reason he is low tier. He is a space control character with very few ways to control space other than teleport.

The F112 string has no use right now. It's death on block. You may as well throw out storm cell or just a raw superman because you're going to get full combo punched regardless of which of those three you throw out.

B12 needs a buff.
F112 needs a buff.
Lighting strike needs a buff.

I'm done having these pointless debates. I've played the character since day 1 and Raiden hits a barrier when you reach a certain level of completive play.
 
Mandolore1123

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
JeffX said:
This is actually the reason he is low tier. He is a space control character with very few ways to control space other than teleport.

The F112 string has no use right now. It's death on block. You may as well throw out storm cell or just a raw superman because you're going to get full combo punched regardless of which of those three you throw out.

B12 needs a buff.
F112 needs a buff.
Lighting strike needs a buff.

I'm done having these pointless debates. I've played the character since day 1 and Raiden hits a barrier when you reach a certain level of completive play.
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So I said that B12 can be made safe in Raijin with DF2 and basic block confirming, which is undeniably true. If you want to make Raiden safe up close play Raijin and use buff and pressure away. TW isn’t supposed to be played up close. Raiden is first and foremost a whiff punisher, not an upclose pressure character. Even in Raijin his DF2 pushes him back into footsie range because that’s where he excels at.
If you have a problem with characters having useless strings then why aren’t you asking for B31 1+3 and B12 1+3 to be buffed? You want his forward advancing string without a hurt box and is safe already to be plus on block afterwards?
I agree that lightning strike needs a buff. Why would people disagree with me?

I have also played the character since day 1. I agree he needs help, but to ask for senseless buffs that don’t take into account what the character is designed to be and try to buff the character into what you want him to be is not the way to do things.
 
JeffX

JeffX

Remove armor on fatal blows now
Mandolore1123 said:
So I said that B12 can be made safe in Raijin with DF2 and basic block confirming, which is undeniably true. If you want to make Raiden safe up close play Raijin and use buff and pressure away. TW isn’t supposed to be played up close. Raiden is first and foremost a whiff punisher, not an upclose pressure character. Even in Raijin his DF2 pushes him back into footsie range because that’s where he excels at.
If you have a problem with characters having useless strings then why aren’t you asking for B31 1+3 and B12 1+3 to be buffed? You want his forward advancing string without a hurt box and is safe already to be plus on block afterwards?
I agree that lightning strike needs a buff. Why would people disagree with me?

I have also played the character since day 1. I agree he needs help, but to ask for senseless buffs that don’t take into account what the character is designed to be and try to buff the character into what you want him to be is not the way to do things.
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You're really not helping your case. There needs to be a unified front in order for this character to get buffs.

B21 1+3 should absolutely come out on block. But it's not going to change the meta of the character.

The proposed buffs I listed, which so many people other than myself have suggested won't even bring him up to S tier. You should be able to end f112 safely. Making it full combo punishable like it is now is dumb as hell for the reasons I listed above. F11(2) may as well not be a thing.

Newsflash, this game was made for simpletons. It's strike/ throw. Every character needs some form of pressure.

Please stop grandstanding, and acting like there's some really nuanced way this character ought to be buffed.

Everything I listed has been suggested by other members before, with the exception of free superman cancels because of how negative they are.
 
Black Chapters

Black Chapters

Legend of Legaia Main
ExpectFlames said:
You cant tele out of it. I'm talking aboutthe bubble they cant leave. The projectile is worthless
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you can literally just take the hit and move on

theres no fear there, if its far Raiden is too slow to follow up

mid-screen and close as always Raiden has lol buttons
 
Mandolore1123

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
JeffX said:
You're really not helping your case. There needs to be a unified front in order for this character to get buffs.

B21 1+3 should absolutely come out on block. But it's not going to change the meta of the character.

The proposed buffs I listed, which so many people other than myself have suggested won't even bring him up to S tier. You should be able to end f112 safely. Making it full combo punishable like it is now is dumb as hell for the reasons I listed above. F11(2) may as well not be a thing.

Newsflash, this game was made for simpletons. It's strike/ throw. Every character needs some form of pressure.

Please stop grandstanding, and acting like there's some really nuanced way this character ought to be buffed.

Everything I listed has been suggested by other members before, with the exception of free superman cancels because of how negative they are.
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So by your logic should we make B31 1+3 and B12 1+3 plus too? They don’t have any use in the game right now and don’t even come out on block.
I’ve already said multiple times that I agree with your lightning strike buff. F1 needs a hitbox fix but it is still a useful move. F112 has its niche uses kind of like Kotal’s f243.
I am not sure why the buffs to Raiden should change the meta of the character. Shouldn’t buffs make the character play the current meta better?
 
rainuS

rainuS

Prince of Edenia
Mandolore1123 said:
So I said that B12 can be made safe in Raijin with DF2 and basic block confirming, which is undeniably true. If you want to make Raiden safe up close play Raijin and use buff and pressure away. TW isn’t supposed to be played up close. Raiden is first and foremost a whiff punisher, not an upclose pressure character. Even in Raijin his DF2 pushes him back into footsie range because that’s where he excels at.
If you have a problem with characters having useless strings then why aren’t you asking for B31 1+3 and B12 1+3 to be buffed? You want his forward advancing string without a hurt box and is safe already to be plus on block afterwards?
I agree that lightning strike needs a buff. Why would people disagree with me?

I have also played the character since day 1. I agree he needs help, but to ask for senseless buffs that don’t take into account what the character is designed to be and try to buff the character into what you want him to be is not the way to do things.
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Sure its ok if we want to make his mid safe we have to go raijin, use buff and not be punished for it, then block confirm to df2 just a mid lol
Obviously KB and FB takes over buff it also disapper with time.

The other option is to use superman cancels which are unsafe or far tele which you wont do in the corner or near corner, also some characters can punish it on read. We use defensive bar to make our 11f mid "safe" its an absurd. Who else has to do this?

Liu Kang will spam his 11f F4 or 9F b1 to death he can even cancel it to command grab.
Kollector safe 10f mid leading to full combo, he has teleport, far teleport command grab great range that can whiff punish with f3 or 443.
Kabal can spam f224 and be safe also f4, 1+3 and he has low options from it without using meter.
Jax can spam F33 like there is no tomorrow,
Jacqui the same she has free cancels out of 9f mid but oh she doesnt have projectile she needs it!

All of these mids are faster then Raiden b12 and safe u dont have to think or spend resources using them.
Who else has to block confiirm a normal especially mid? Its absurd.

And yea Raiden is such a great punisher that he cant even punish Noob Saibot blocked B1, 1+3, yes really great whiff punisher.
 
JeffX

JeffX

Remove armor on fatal blows now
Mandolore1123 said:
So by your logic should we make B31 1+3 and B12 1+3 plus too? They don’t have any use in the game right now and don’t even come out on block.
I’ve already said multiple times that I agree with your lightning strike buff. F1 needs a hitbox fix but it is still a useful move. F112 has its niche uses kind of like Kotal’s f243.
I am not sure why the buffs to Raiden should change the meta of the character. Shouldn’t buffs make the character play the current meta better?
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Dude, just stop. You're not understanding a goddamn thing or you're just choosing not to. I just said they should come out on block.

You're trying to act like you're some Raiden expert, when you're clearly not.

Please just delete your recent posts here. We're trying to get the character some much needed tools. You're doing a great job fucking it up.
 
Mahjunia

Mahjunia

Noob
  • 321 should be +4 since it can be interrupted.
  • f112 maybe should leave at 0?
  • b12 could be -7 or -8
  • make df2 safer, able to amp on block and fix it since sometimes it doesn't hit.
  • depending on the string superman cancel should be +, why kabal can be plus? (lately I'm using d4-superman cancel and leaves + on hit
  • faster frames on bf1 it's terrible slow
make b2 cancelable, lol just kidding
 
Marlow

Marlow

Champion
I just don't care that much about buff/nerf discussions. I'd rather play the character I have instead of worrying about the character I don't. Raiden could certainly use some buffs, but in the meantime he's still an ok character with some things that can work, so I'll try and make him work. If I'm not having fun I can just switch to another character. That would probably send NRS a louder message anyways, since character usage is something they seem to pay attention to.
 
BuffRaidenPlz

BuffRaidenPlz

Noob
Non-controversial changes I think most of us can agree on as being sensible:
  • bf1 needs to be faster. It's kinda dumb having a zoner with such poor zoning tools.
  • make the superman krushing blow requirement a bit easier to get
  • b2 needs to be a bit faster. Tons of other characters have overheads you can't block on reaction. It's already hard to land it.
Things I would love to see but highly doubtful:
  • b12 faster
  • stormcell made completely safe
The first 3 suggestions would make him more viable. The last 2 would push him up the ranks nicely, as other top characters have similar tools.
 
Mel0

Mel0

Noob
BuffRaidenPlz said:
Non-controversial changes I think most of us can agree on as being sensible:
  • bf1 needs to be faster. It's kinda dumb having a zoner with such poor zoning tools.
  • make the superman krushing blow requirement a bit easier to get
  • b2 needs to be a bit faster. Tons of other characters have overheads you can't block on reaction. It's already hard to land it.
Things I would love to see but highly doubtful:
  • b12 faster
  • stormcell made completely safe
The first 3 suggestions would make him more viable. The last 2 would push him up the ranks nicely, as other top characters have similar tools.
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I agree on your points, but sc on block should be death imo. Having a move that does good chip AND launches for a full combo should not be safe. It would turn raiden into the new character that everyone complains about.
 
Marlow

Marlow

Champion
Mel0 said:
I agree on your points, but sc on block should be death imo. Having a move that does good chip AND launches for a full combo should not be safe. It would turn raiden into the new character that everyone complains about.
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Especially if you combined it with B12 being faster. All of a sudden you'd have a fast startup, advancing, highly active mid into a safe full combo launcher that deals solid chip.
 
Marlow

Marlow

Champion
I'd be curious to see what they could do to make his teleport better. Maybe give his TW version a better feeling of mobility or slipperiness.
 
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