(Discussion) The Unprecedented Stated of MK11

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Couple things:

1. In regards to customs and the 3rd variation, across this entire thread and in many others (and other websites), I've noticed literally one person bring up something that is glaring to me, and that was REO later on in the podcast.
   
   I keep seeing comments about the 3rd variation already being useless because of the current state of the remaining special moves, but it seems insane to me to assume that these variations will be 100% constructed using said moves without a single adjustment being made to them. REO makes this argument while talking about Erron Black already having the best theoretical loadout he can get, but then finally mentions that a variation with the bear trap might be cool if the trap also got buffs to it.
   m2dave makes a comment about the idea of moving to anything that doesn't use Shang Tsung's Ground Eruption, implying doing so makes a person stupid. While I understand his point I also think this is a very diminishing and short sighted attitude.
   
   So I find it a bit concerning that nobody is even considering this before throwing all of it in the trash. On the podcast the matter of time constraints came up, so on this note it seems even more obvious to me that the reason special moves got corralled into tournament approved variations is because they needed a way to funnel their balancing act for these moves moving forward.
   As much as I support customs being opened up to ranked and tournaments (because that was the whole point of designing the shit in the first place) I also wouldn't want to be stuck with balancing all of those custom moves at once.
   
   I have mentioned it in another thread somewhere, but doing a series of balance passes on the leftover specials is without question the first step to making a 3rd variation, and it is strongly implied they plan on making more. All of these are steps towards getting full customs in action. Meanwhile, we can still use them anyways because it turns out kasual mode won't actually make your hands melt off for wanting to try out things that look fun for your character.
   REO also makes a great point that these moves can give a person new interest in a character they otherwise don't care about. That's a big deal.
   
   
   
   
2. I haven't lurked here much, only really started posting a bit in the early days of INJ2, and have now tried to sink my teeth into discussions with MK11. I say this to illustrate that I'm unfamiliar with the board politics of this place, so I don't really know much about any of you, particularly CrimsonShadow. However, I don't understand how someone like him can be so consistently disrespected even after being forced to lay out a list that reads as a mere portion of the good deeds he's done for everyone. I may be labeled as a shill after saying this, but I also don't understand the attitude towards his point of view; the posts of his that I have read are level headed and reasonable yet ad hominem and mob mentality is almost always returned immediately, and he still somehow has the patience to continue responding maturely and politely. This is the community badguy?
   
   I sincerely do not understand and would appreciate explanation from anyone.

im glad this thread could bring you out of lurking. i am with you in that giving us competitive access to the entire move list will add a large amount of depth and longevity to the game.

 

[ExpectFlames]

I just want Kano to have a mid, okay? Please understand where this (righteous) frustration is coming from. I'm everything I hate when I use Kano due to him not having a decent mid; a d1 masher and a jump spammer. He's literally the only guy in the game that relies on it to win.

As a raiden player were in this together lol

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

As a raiden player were in this together lol

raiden, and many characters, have some amazing stuff hidden away in the customization

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Personally I'm finding it boring lately bc it is extremely strike/throw oriented and 90% of the games are played the same way. The lack of Kustom is not helping it at all but the one thing I believe is responsible for this shallow meta we have now is dash canceling.

When you think about it, it simply enforces guesses that shouldn't be there at all. Instead of having to use different tools to check people and make use of your complete moveset a lot of situations become potato dash up mid or auto-shimmy / Dash up throw. Like for example whenever you are negative against Liu Kang from jump range he has no reason to use any other normal when he can simply dash up and cancel it in his throw or F4. Not to mention how great it would be to not have Sub-Zero, Cetrion and Geras canceling their teleport backdashes into normals and specials.

Jump ins being that stupid also contribute to this stuff. When in doubt, the best answer in every single scenario is to jump, and when you do so, it doesn't matter if you are playing against online bob or SonicFox... you know the odds of you getting anti-aired are in a 1 to 5 ratio at worst. And jump-ins guarantee you the same potato mixup.

The poking meta in this game is also caveman IQ tier. This is an example where making stuff universal would actually benefit the game A LOT. If every 6 frames poke was -7, every 7 frame poke was -6 and every 8 frame was -5, while all of the D4s ranged from -7 to -12 considering their range and speed we wouldn't have this poking galore. Playing against Erron or Jacqui with their scrubs wet dream -3 pokes is soooo fucking bad.

Imho, in the beta, we had a better and smarter fighting game, with way more variety (even with the fewer characters, Kustomization had me and my training partners playing characters in more unique ways) and it felt rewarding and extremely fun to play.

Edit: to the people saying this is the most balanced game to date, I agree. But the reason why is the wrong one. This game is not balanced bc characters have around the same amount of good, even and bad matchups, it is not balanced bc they can all handle different scenarios in unique ways or bc they are all very complete characters. It is balanced bc the name of the game is Strike/Throw and we have Liu Kang, then we have 9 more characters that are pretty obnoxious at it, 10 other that are really good at it, 4 that can hold their own playing it, and 3 that simply can't play.

I fucking applaud this post.

We came to play Mortal Kombat, not Strike Throw Kombat.

 

[dribirut]

I remember that about a month ago for the nightwolf YouTube reveal trailer, there was a comment that pretty much said “cool.. now I have to guess what moves are available for competitive play... we were promised customization!!”

It was the top comment with over 250 likes. The comment was then shortly removed by nrs.. people need to stop pretending like this is a complaint by just a few loudmouths in the community

 

[craftycheese]

Jump ins being that stupid also contribute to this stuff. When in doubt, the best answer in every single scenario is to jump, and when you do so, it doesn't matter if you are playing against online bob or SonicFox... you know the odds of you getting anti-aired are in a 1 to 5 ratio at worst. And jump-ins guarantee you the same potato mixup.

Who are you to doubt online Bob? This guy's a serious professional!

 

[Scoot Magee]

The only thing I really dislike about this game is the amount of input lag we are forced to deal with online, even in good connections. I dont give a shit about playing random ft2 kl matches. I just want to be able to play a game that at least resembles what the game is played like offline when the ping is low.

Why we dont get the option to reduce input lag to our preference is a mystery to me. Low ping connections could play so much better online. Instead we cant even react to projectiles and fast advancing specials when around footsie range. It destroys the neutral imo.

Some people play great in this shit but I'm definitely not one of them. Most of the things people bitch about here are due to their experiences in netplay. It's a much different game with an extra 4 frames of delay.

 

[Gooberking]

I remember that about a month ago for the nightwolf YouTube reveal trailer, there was a comment that pretty much said “cool.. now I have to guess what moves are available for competitive play... we were promised customization!!”

It was the top comment with over 250 likes. The comment was then shortly removed by nrs.. people need to stop pretending like this is a complaint by just a few loudmouths in the community

That's not much different than when IJ2 was dropping new characters. I don't feel near the same level of fragmentation between the casual and competitive sides as in that game, and like it was a much bigger deal then with the causal crowd basically getting everything and having RPG stat crap making it totally impossible to sometimes play against custom loadouts with a stock character.

It's not even a "we got what we asked for but didn't know what that meant" situation at this point. There were tons of people ready to burn NRS to the ground if variations returned, now we wan't infinite variations. We hated MKX, IN2, but now we loved them so much more than today's game, and why can't things just be MK9?

I think individuals are probably quite consistent for what they want and are saying, but the mob just wants so many conflicting things, and is never ending; this wanting something to be different. There is no way to win, and no way to recognize all the complaining. All they could do was to try and give us something they thought would work, and they thought was cool, and they though is what we wanted and see how the dice fell. By in large, the competitive crowd as been getting more and more of what it has been asking for since mid MKX and this is where we end up. Not everyone is loving it I guess, just like they didn't love the last couple of games. There is no game to be made that will make everyone happy, and at some point it's a bad idea to try and make one.

I wasn't happy in the end with the last one. My memory may be a little faulty here, but when people like me said we weren't having fun, some of the same people complaining here seem to leave me feeling like we weren't allowed to complain. That the game was good and it was our fault for not trying hard enough or being good enough at it to even be allowed to have an opinion on the matter.

Now we are here with this game. I like this game. I feel like I can play this one more effectively, and like I'm learning something by playing it. It's fine not everyone likes it too, but people don't just want to complain about it, they want to change it. I don't think I asked for IJ2 to change. It's a really cool and great game; for some people. It just wasn't quite a fit for me. This one has been, and I'm not totally up for just letting that call to change it go with out some sort of push back.

All that said I don't know that full customization changes the game enough that it's worth fighting against, but I also don't know that it will shake things up any more than a third set of variations. Maybe we just wait and see what that feels like instead of flipping out and asking for the whole cake. Maybe they could just run a full customization KL season and we would know for certain what it's like without them having to commit to anything at all.

I should go to bed now, cuz my rant mode flipped on or something.

 

[FanTalk]

Hot take but I still think MKX has the most depth in an NRS game.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Hot take but I still think MKX has the most depth in an NRS game.

And the least neutral to go with it

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Hot take but I still think MKX has the most depth in an NRS game.

And the least neutral to go with it

These are both legitimate statements.

I played Killer Face. I couldn't afford to stand still if my opponent had a projectile.

Jesus Mattress Christ, I miss that character. Tremor was the guy I played the most by a lot, but Leatherface was love and prosperity.
I hope Ash is still the last guest so that I can have my chainsaw back.

I remember that about a month ago for the nightwolf YouTube reveal trailer, there was a comment that pretty much said “cool.. now I have to guess what moves are available for competitive play... we were promised customization!!”

It was the top comment with over 250 likes. The comment was then shortly removed by nrs.. people need to stop pretending like this is a complaint by just a few loudmouths in the community

Facts.
At the end of the day, the biggest problem here - bigger than in house squabble arguments or fluffy derailing or how much we need NJP combos back (okay, that's just me, sorry) - is the lack of transparency from higher up the chain, and things like that comment being disappeared. This isn't about shitting on one game or putting over another; it's about MK11 being as good as its capable of being. And there's an already-sizeable and growing number of concerned players that are looking for answers to our questions about how to do that. Just because the line of questioning isn't pleasant doesn't mean it isn't valid.

 

[Shale101]

This game to me feels very rushed and unfinished. Many character move sets were recycled from previous games but very little new innovation. The goal of a "balanced" game has destroyed combo creativity. This game has been described as having " Shorter combos". Each character seems to have one or two good strings that are repeated over and over and over and over. It's so boring. I was a kitana main in MKX and she feels completely destroyed. They recycled mostly everything but made everything worse. She has fan toss of course......no fan combos anymore. Also, no instant air fans into combos. Air float is back and sucks. Her square wave is back but now requires "ground war" to be used on the ground. Her fan lift is back and is horrible compared to what it use to be. "Royal Protection" is a shittier version of " Sharpen" and her projectile reflect in MKX. Her mileena version is a disgrace.......why can't they come up with move sets for Kitana? The only REAL tournament " kitana" variation we have in this game is one with recycled moves that are now WORSE. It's like NO time was spent on characters in this game. All the time must have been spent on fancy cameras that scan real people's faces to be used as models for the game. The gameplay is so watered down, repetitive, and plain not fun. The custom variations system has back fired and is very limiting . Kitana now has a " Low Fan", " Up fan", and "Downward fan" . Not very creative and you lose something Major when you equip something like this. Although MKX had 3 set variations , I feel like the moves from each variation were made to work together and did at least a decent job. Some of these custom moves seem to have no real use and I never see people using them.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

This game to me feels very rushed and unfinished. Many character move sets were recycled from previous games but very little new innovation.

? The vast majority of characters play completely different from their incarnations in other games. No-clone Sub, muay-thai Jacqui, footsies Scorpion(!), Hybrid Kitana, patient grandfather Johnny cage, etc.

Some criticisms are valid, but that one especially is specifically off the mark. This is fundmentally a vastly different game from the last edition. Almost no one plays like they did in MKX.

 

[SOULWARRIOR 71K]

I may be in the minority when I say this but I’m not so sure “full” customization will yield positive results. In fact, I think some characters would end up totally overpowered.

Also, I think people are looking back at previous games with rose colored glasses. I remember seeing plenty of the same strategies/combos/mix used over and over again in MKX.

Unless NRS was willing to back away from the dial-a-combo, strike/throw mix style system while somehow maintaining balance with a fully customizable moveset, I’m not sure what people are expecting.

This game isn’t bad. It’s just not for everyone in its current state. MK11 XL will be a thing. I can feel in my plums.

 

[Shale101]

? The vast majority of characters play completely different from their incarnations in other games. No-clone Sub, muay-thai Jacqui, footsies Scorpion(!), Hybrid Kitana, patient grandfather Johnny cage, etc.

Some criticisms are valid, but that one especially is specifically off the mark. This is fundmentally a vastly different game from the last edition. Almost no one plays like they did in MKX.

I mean as far as having the same moves.....I mean I think MKX added several new moves for characters that made sense in each variation. Of course Kitana will always have a fan toss and hopefully fan lift but air float and throat slice were basically recycled from MKX. Square wave is there again from MKX. The royal protection like i said seems recycled from MKX. I liked the feeling of new innovation In MKX with her Assassin Stike, Parry, and Sharpen. Her royal storm had the new projectile reflect and altered fan lift that could hit full screen. Her Jade variation although was disappointing because it uses another characters skill set was cohesive , effective, and more importantly fun! Kitana does certainly play different now.....no fan combos ....no air pressure. Her gameplay design seems very lazy to ME. When so much is recycled from the last game and there is limited combos in this game then whats left that they worked hard on to create? Not a whole lot in my opinion.

 

[spidey300]

I just don't see how people can say mk11 is the best mk or their favorite mk. Customization wise sure but because mk9 and mkx were harder? Because you're not constantly getting your shit mixed and rushed down like in mkx? Because they laced mk11 with bottom of the barrel footsies and neutral and fed you the idea that mk11 was gonna be a footsies and neutral game? Mk11 is good but there were just way more good times to be had fighting in mkx and mk9

 

[gitblame]

I agree. Variation system is the biggest hand break of this game. Main reason why this game cannot hook me up like previous titles. Characters feel dry like a bone. You don't really feel rewarded for putting time into character. Of course you getting better as a player, but you don't feel you are growing with your character. There is so little character specific stuff in this game, so literally when you feel that character you play is holding you back you can switch with little to no effort and produce better results with different character literally day after. Customs would probably help a little. When I try to recall when I had the most fun with the game, it was beta. The feeling of exploration, walking forward completely blind and just messing around with different builds were really really fun. For sure allowing customs in competetive play would make us occupied for a while. 3rd variation will literally change nothing if they won't rework current ones. For most of characters best abilities are already equiped in one of 2 variations. So if they gonna build 3rd variations using unused moves for now, probably only few characters would benefit. I messed a lot with Kitana custom moves. The unused ones are trash. If I was building custom for Kitana I would combine abilities from highborn and fan-fare. Maybe add low fan.
As a viewer I also feel kinda bored. Rivarlies are good, best players really play out of their mind and top 8 are really stack, but it's thanks to players not the game. During MKX and even Injustice 2 I felt most tournaments I was watching something new. I could tell if that's HappyPow's Flash or Honeybee's Flash. Here I am watching Deoxys Geras and other Geras players and the only thing that makes them different is skill. They literally doing the same things, just Deoxys performs better in neutral and makes better decisions.
I am not saying Injustice 2 was better, but it for sure had more character flavor - and even then we were complaining about characters not being deep enough and counterpicking working better than being a character specialist.
MKX variatons system worked better. Because game was designed around variations. Here I don't know what was the design. I would not be suprised if they wanted customs to be allowed from the start, but during development they realized they won't be able to balance it on time. And here we reaching the problem with allowing custom. I am afraid there will be some broken presets and it would require NRS actively adjusting them. It could colide with tournament schedule. And that's might be the reason why they holding back.

I really hope NRS will drop variations, equipable moves and spliting playerbase for competetive and casual in future games. It does not work well. For both casuals and competetive players. 2 games in a row.

 

[S+ Main]

I came in to work this morning expecting to do work, and I open tym and see this thread. it looks interesting so I click on it and start reading and now my morning work becomes after lunch work. But it was worth it this is one of the most entertaining threads I have read and it was quite the emotional rollercoaster. I laughed, I cried and all in between. However everybody takes the game to seriously there are other games and other things to do but hate the game or defend it with your dying breath.

 

[Braindead]

I don't think this discussion is gonna go anywhere, people want what they want and they've already decided they like or hate the game long ago.

I just want to say that the "combo route freedom" thing is a bill. Everyone will find the optimal combo in one day then always go for that or the most-consistent highest damaging combo. It will always be starter -> launcher -> optimal juggle -> ender. No one goes for different shit every time just for the sake of it.

I do think longer combos would be more fun to watch but this "route freedom" thing is a giant bill.

 

[thlityoursloat]

I don't think this discussion is gonna go anywhere, people want what they want and they've already decided they like or hate the game long ago.

I just want to say that the "combo route freedom" thing is a bill. Everyone will find the optimal combo in one day then always go for that or the most-consistent highest damaging combo. It will always be starter -> launcher -> optimal juggle -> ender. No one goes for different shit every time just for the sake of it.

I do think longer combos would be more fun to watch but this "route freedom" thing is a giant bill.

I beg to differ. I played Smoke in MKX and that character was combo galore, the way his scaling worked the difference between an optimal and swag combo wasn’t much.
You need to keep in mind this also affects the SP heavily, at least for me. I only stuck
through it because it’d be fun combo practice.
This is the only NRS game so far where I haven’t even touched the classic towers because what the fuck am I gonna do? Just f2 1+3 the AI straight to death?

 

[ExpectFlames]

raiden, and many characters, have some amazing stuff hidden away in the customization

Gimmicks all gimmicks. Nothing that will make him any better than bottom 2.

 

[Metzos]

Dont really know whats the deal with this thread. Just enjoy the game. I get my ass handed online and offline in MK11, unlike mk9 and mkx, since i dont play that much and not labbbing anymore, but i still enjoy the game. It is balanced compared to MK9 where you would see Kabal, KL, Cyrax and Sonya. Thats it. That was almost every top 4 until the game dried out.

Does MK11 have flaws? Yes it does. There are characters who are almost complete and there are characters who are shit. Dont expect NRS to fix that, cause they wont, they will always nerf or buff the unnecessary stuff. Revolve around that. Find things to counter them. If you cant, join them.

Online is better than mkx and mk9 for sure, although imo there should be a filter option to lock out wify users.

Imo, MK11 would be a MUCH better game in terms of depth and gameplay if there were no variations at all. We would be playing very different characters than we are right now.

Raptor's OS needs to go. Period. I dont care if its intended, i dont care if its consistent or not. That thing can cost tournaments.

The meta of this game is still not fleshed out. Its f.block. And i m not talking about f.b to u2. I m talking about f.b to full combo punishes against certain strings and specials. I havent seen that done consistently like ever. Could be wrong though.

Bottom line MK11 is not dying and it wont be for quite some time, because of one reason. Marketing. They are marketing the hell out of this game. I hate that the KP is full of guests (AGAIN) but thats where the money is. Not on Ermac (miss you), not on Smoke, not on anyone else. The money is on Arnold, Michael Jai White and Jared Leto Joker wannabe.

Chill, play the game, if you dont like it gtfo for some time to clear your head, then come back. Worked for me. Peace.

 

[ismael4790]

5 months after mkx was released the hype levels and interest of people in the game were very high.

5 months have passed since mk11 was released, and the feeling in the air is that this game pretty much already offered everything it could. Perhaps it is a lack of depth, or that many people didn't like the mechanics, or that nrs promised certain degree of freedom and then didn't deliver, or that the game felt rushed, or the lack of news from nrs together with the low number of patches. Whatever the reason, and even without judging if the game is good or not, it is a fact that this game has not had the same impact than the previous titles. Maybe it's time for warner/nrs to reconsider their strategies.

 

[Marlow]

5 months after mkx was released the hype levels and interest of people in the game were very high.

There were also plenty of "What could "fix" MKX to you?" threads, anti-complaint threads due to people complaining too much, buff/nerf/tier threads, complaints about hitbox issues, and all the other stuff we currently see now going on as well.

 

[Vslayer]

I just want Kano to have a mid, okay? Please understand where this (righteous) frustration is coming from. I'm everything I hate when I use Kano due to him not having a decent mid; a d1 masher and a jump spammer. He's literally the only guy in the game that relies on it to win.

That's why I am sad every time I play him, I have to develop bad habits which doesn't help me when I play other characters.