Universal change for the down poke system

[DixieFlatline78]

Not to derail but coming from Street Fighter holy shit this is life changing information. I always assumed deep jumps were +1000

Deep jumps are plus, shallow jumps are minus. But that opens a minigame of trying to stuff anti airs

Like I do a lot of shallow jump kicks if I see they're good at anti-airing so that I can start doing deep cross ups that get uncontested

Does not work against D1 AAs tho, Sonya can still punish it

 

[Vhozite]

Oh yeah what am i fucking thinking. English is hard

 

[craftycheese]

While we're here changing things, can we change the game to where either player is down blocking while close to the other the character will look like they're going to poke, like have their finger out, and say, "I'm not touching you."

 

[MagicMan357]

I can tell a lot of people really havent or dont understand fighting games smh. You have to change things in conjunction with other things people. You dont just make stuff more negative and think that will solve everything. Ive even heard people say all pokes should be punishable which is crazy.
@Marinjuana Yes they should be unsafe based on distance, not just because like most are now, its about risk/reward.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Not to derail but coming from Street Fighter holy shit this is life changing information. I always assumed deep jumps were +1000

its a gamble of 2 fronts.
the higher the kick, the less likely is that you will get anti-aired, however you are less plus, there is also a high chance of being by passed by neutral duck, which tends to avoid shallowed jumps, and its vulnerable to flawless block launchers.

deep jump kicks are more plus, they are safe against the majority of flawless block launchers, cannot be neutral crouched however those are very likely to get jabbed out of the air, basically doing deep jump kicks increases the chance to get jab anti--aired.

 

[SpecialOne88]

The problem with d1s is not how minus or plus they are, is the blockstun/stop.
The player mashing is always doing things as fast as possible, the one that blocks, has to react to blocking and take his turn. More time to see and react, less fraudulent turn steals up close by mashing.
The same applies to the problem of jailing on hit into highs.

 

[lordlosh]

I don`t see this as a big problem in a Competive/Pro Games.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I don`t see this as a big problem in a Competive/Pro Games.

Almost nobody is getting hit with 3 d1s in a row in any top-level match. Granted, stuff like Geras’ d1 is annoying. But it was mostly trading back and forth to see who would take the bait on block. I would still definitely adjust the fastest d1s like his, but I don’t think they really need a global drastic overhaul when most don’t share Geras’ frames.

At one point Tekken Master tried to mash 3 pokes in a row and Sonic whiff punished him severely for it.

 

[lordlosh]

Exactly. I also don`t have problem with pokes. People have to accept that different character have different strengths and weaknesses and not every character can have OH, 6 frame attack and/or mostly safe string.
You have to play to the strength of your character and try to hide as much as you can his weaknesses.

 

[NaughtySenpai]

I think those are reasonable suggestions.
I dunno if I'm just bad but I have huge trouble with hit-confirming d1s into s1. Feels borderline impossible, even in practice mode. Online I just mix myself up. Either I go d1 and instantly do s1 or the gap gets to big and people duck under the high.

On d3 I can see it being hit-confirmable, since I can do it in practice mode (at least with Scorpion), but online I just fucking guess.

Personally for Scorpion I wish d1 was hit-confirmable into 11 (the negative option) and d3 was hit-confirmable into 21 (the plus on block option).

Then again I might just be terrible at the game.
If you guys are able to consistently hit-confirm down pokes that aren't d4 in the corner, let me know so I can lab that shit up until I can do it.

 

[Gaxkang]

I think those are reasonable suggestions.
I dunno if I'm just bad but I have huge trouble with hit-confirming d1s into s1. Feels borderline impossible, even in practice mode. Online I just mix myself up. Either I go d1 and instantly do s1 or the gap gets to big and people duck under the high.

On d3 I can see it being hit-confirmable, since I can do it in practice mode (at least with Scorpion), but online I just fucking guess.

Personally for Scorpion I wish d1 was hit-confirmable into 11 (the negative option) and d3 was hit-confirmable into 21 (the plus on block option).

Then again I might just be terrible at the game.
If you guys are able to consistently hit-confirm down pokes that aren't d4 in the corner, let me know so I can lab that shit up until I can do it.

I don't think hit confirming D1 into S1 is a thing...D1 into S2 is often technically a thing, but practically not feasible especially online.

A central question in the MK11 gameplay is what can you do on a D1 hit...and often it's not much. Some can do some things tho...even a big thing.

It's so central to the current gameplay but the tutorial doesn't go into it heh.

But I made a topic a time back:

What Your Character Can do on D1 Hit

The D1 due to its frequency and the centrality of the poke game to entire game itself, makes the D1 perhaps like the most important move in the game. Followed by specials that say, dictate how a fight goes, or combo starters that don't seem that punishable. Etc. So a big question for any...

testyourmight.com

 

[Deleted member 35141]

Almost nobody is getting hit with 3 d1s in a row in any top-level match. Granted, stuff like Geras’ d1 is annoying. But it was mostly trading back and forth to see who would take the bait on block. I would still definitely adjust the fastest d1s like his, but I don’t think they really need a global drastic overhaul when most don’t share Geras’ frames.

At one point Tekken Master tried to mash 3 pokes in a row and Sonic whiff punished him severely for it.

I agree but using the greatest nrs player of all time offline play isnt the greatest example.
My issue personally with a character with all highs is trying to take my turn after blocking online to the point I switched characters.

 

[Blewdew]

I don't think hit confirming D1 into S1 is a thing...D1 into S2 is often technically a thing, but practically not feasible especially online.

It is. If you‘re s1 is faster than the hitadvantage of your d1 it jails 100%. It‘s a 2-3 frame link most of the time though which is why you should go for a mid if you have a relatively fast one (9-15f startup)

I think overall pokes are fine but there are a few that just shouldn‘t exist. No 6f d1‘s and no pokes less than -5 on block.

 

[CriticalDrop]

It is. If you‘re s1 is faster than the hitadvantage of your d1 it jails 100%. It‘s a 2-3 frame link most of the time though which is why you should go for a mid if you have a relatively fast one (9-15f startup)

D1 jailing into S1 is not always a thing. I'm not sure if it is a hitbox issue or it's intended, but, in the case of Kano, d1 doesn't jail into S1 (8 frames), while it does into S2 (9 frames). S1 high profiles the recovery animation of the other character (even against big chars like the Kahns). Perhaps it's my execution, but after a lot of tries I haven't got it even once, while I can get the S2, supposedly more difficult.
Curiously enough, D3 jails into S1 on big chars, while it doesn't on regular chars ¿hurtbox issue? (Tested against sub zero, kitana and the two kahns)

 

[Blewdew]

D1 jailing into S1 is not always a thing. I'm not sure if it is a hitbox issue or it's intended, but, in the case of Kano, d1 doesn't jail into S1 (8 frames), while it does into S2 (9 frames). S1 high profiles the recovery animation of the other character (even against big chars like the Kahns). Perhaps it's my execution, but after a lot of tries I haven't got it even once, while I can get the S2, supposedly more difficult.
Curiously enough, D3 jails into S1 on big chars, while it doesn't on regular chars ¿hurtbox issue? (Tested against sub zero, kitana and the two kahns)

These are definitely hitbox issues it‘s the same with frost s1. Technically every button that is faster than the hitadvantage you have from a button before jails, but hitbox issues, spacing etc come in play too.

 

[NaughtySenpai]

D1 jailing into S1 is not always a thing. I'm not sure if it is a hitbox issue or it's intended, but, in the case of Kano, d1 doesn't jail into S1 (8 frames), while it does into S2 (9 frames). S1 high profiles the recovery animation of the other character (even against big chars like the Kahns). Perhaps it's my execution, but after a lot of tries I haven't got it even once, while I can get the S2, supposedly more difficult.
Curiously enough, D3 jails into S1 on big chars, while it doesn't on regular chars ¿hurtbox issue? (Tested against sub zero, kitana and the two kahns)

Most likely a hitbox issue. Scorpion jails off d1 and d3 into s1 on every character.

 

[Marlow]

More pushback on block, especially for D1, sounds like a good idea.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Does not work against D1 AAs tho, Sonya can still punish it

It does if your name is Geras.

I've gotten pretty decent at D1 AAing and D1 anti-crossup but you ain't D1ing Geras out of any jump kick/body splash unless it's like a telegraphed jump from further away than start distance lmao

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Or counter poke with a mid

all pokes are negative enough you can take your turn with something other than a poke

So really the solution is to make sure everyone has a decent mid.

 

[craftycheese]

D1 jailing into S1 is not always a thing. I'm not sure if it is a hitbox issue or it's intended, but, in the case of Kano, d1 doesn't jail into S1 (8 frames), while it does into S2 (9 frames). S1 high profiles the recovery animation of the other character (even against big chars like the Kahns). Perhaps it's my execution, but after a lot of tries I haven't got it even once, while I can get the S2, supposedly more difficult.
Curiously enough, D3 jails into S1 on big chars, while it doesn't on regular chars ¿hurtbox issue? (Tested against sub zero, kitana and the two kahns)

I must have execution problems because anytime I do d1 to either S1 or S2, I just get uppercutted. Could be an online thing too. Its become a thing to where now i just live or die by hoping they block my d1 so I can tic into lumbar check or if I know I'll connect with a d1, I'll just backup and b3 to get a KB. Works for me more often than not.

 

[CriticalDrop]

I must have execution problems because anytime I do d1 to either S1 or S2, I just get uppercutted. Could be an online thing too. Its become a thing to where now i just live or die by hoping they block my d1 so I can tic into lumbar check or if I know I'll connect with a d1, I'll just backup and b3 to get a KB. Works for me more often than not.

It's not your execution, I doubt anybody has such a good execution (and internet connection) to do it consistently online. Jailing D1 into S2 is a 1 frame link, so it is practically impossible online and the risk of trying such a tight jail is too high. I almost never follow a successful d1 with S1 or S2. If I'm sure that the D1 will connect I go for Kano Ball or, same as you, walk backwards+B3 or B2 (more risky).

 

[Wigy]

Pushback on block with pokes is cancer I don't know why people want more.

Your d4 isn't meant to create space on block. That is stupid. Earn your space.

Scorpion and sub are the worst offenders. Their d4 resets neutral on block and have stupid range.

It just creates absolutely cancerous footsies if you don't have long range fast tools. It's not good for the game at all.

 

[Moms4lif3]

Pushback on block with pokes is cancer I don't know why people want more.

Your d4 isn't meant to create space on block. That is stupid. Earn your space.

Scorpion and sub are the worst offenders. Their d4 resets neutral on block and have stupid range.

It just creates absolutely cancerous footsies if you don't have long range fast tools. It's not good for the game at all.

Sub‘s d4 is 11 frames and -9 dude.
It’s really not that great in comparison to other characters’ pokes, as shown here:

Scorpions is also 11 frames and -4 (yea 5 full frames difference)

Other pokes which go similarly far from other characters:

Erron d3: 7f, -2 (WHAT the actual fuck)
Noobs d3: 9f, -5 (balanced but annoying)
Frost d4: 12f, -9 (1 more frame startup, equally bad on block, but this moves goes far)

In conclusion: yes, Sub’s d4 SHOULD create space, it’s negative on block, has quite slow startup and does not even go that far.

 

[Wigy]

@Moms4lif3

Frost's d4 is very well balanced. It's absolutely horrible on block and whiff, doesn't push back at all and it's cancel window is late as fuck.

-9 with enough pushback you can't reach with anything? Just make it less negative without pushback and it's not stupid

 

[Marlow]

Pushback on block with pokes is cancer I don't know why people want more.

What about more pushback on block with D1? Enough so that someone could only land 2 D1's in a row on block before they're pushed out of range?