Do Tournament placings have an effect on tiers?

[Vslayer]

Lower tiers? Kung lao? F1 into throw? He doesn't do F1 into throw. Nor F4 throw as you said earlier.

He threatens either throw or F44.

Yeah, he throws on knockdown that was my bad, thought he could do it after F4. KL doesn't have a F44, it's only F4.

What I'm saying is he doesn't have tools like Cassie's F41 or F34 to open up opponents for a full combo, that's why his stuff is gimmicky since he has to rely on reads and throws for mixups.

 

[Qwark28]

Yeah, he throws on knockdown that was my bad, thought he could do it after F4. KL doesn't have a F44, it's only F4.

What I'm saying is he doesn't have tools like Cassie's F41 or F34 to open up opponents for a full combo, that's why his stuff is gimmicky since he has to rely on reads and throws for mixups.

So he doesn't have mid string or throw like cassie, only mid string and throw to open people up with.

Everyone relies on reads and throws. Welcome to fighting games 101, jesus christ.

 

[Vslayer]

So he doesn't have mid string or throw like cassie, only mid string and throw to open people up with.

Everyone relies on reads and throws. Welcome to fighting games 101, jesus christ.

Mid to overhead that goes into a full combo, low starter that goes into a full combo. To my knowledge, KL doesn't have those.

Why do you seem so annoyed for no reason? Relax and explain calmly.

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

Yeah, he throws on knockdown that was my bad, thought he could do it after F4. KL doesn't have a F44, it's only F4.

What I'm saying is he doesn't have tools like Cassie's F41 or F34 to open up opponents for a full combo, that's why his stuff is gimmicky since he has to rely on reads and throws for mixups.

That's why Cassie is broken and need a nerf too many hit confirmable strings

 

[Qwark28]

Mid to overhead that goes into a full combo, low starter that goes into a full combo. To my knowledge, KL doesn't have those.

Why do you seem so annoyed for no reason? Relax and explain calmly.

Not annoyed, just reading ridiculous things.

Cassie doesn't have overhead/low mixups. Nobody at a mid lvl or above gets hit by those. 1st hit will always be low from F4, 2nd hit will always be overhead with F41. It'd help to know how the game works, let alone your own char or the char you're talking about.

 

[Vslayer]

Not annoyed, just reading ridiculous things.

Cassie doesn't have overhead/low mixups. Nobody at a mid lvl or above gets hit by those. 1st hit will always be low from F4, 2nd hit will always be overhead with F41. It'd help to know how the game works, let alone your own char or the char you're talking about.

I didn't say it was a mixup like Sonya has, I mean she has these options that she can combo off of to open up the opponent, which KL doesn't.

Lol you are annoyed, you can't fool me.

 

[Qwark28]

I didn't say it was a mixup like Sonya has, I mean she has these options that she can combo off of to open up the opponent, which KL doesn't.

Nobody at a mid lvl or above gets hit by those. 1st hit will always be low from F4, 2nd hit will always be overhead with F41.

 

[Vslayer]

That's why Cassie is broken and need a nerf too many hit confirmable strings

I agree she needs to be nerfed. Her F4 is too good, especially when she has access to B2 and F34.

 

[Qwark28]

So you're saying she has overhead and low strings but that she doesn't have mixups.

The real mixup is in the train of thought.

 

[Qwark28]

For the record, what I hate the most is kung laos teleport, they should make it 50 frames instead of 30, it's nearly unreactable vs zoning.

 

[Vslayer]

So you're saying she has overhead and low strings but that she doesn't have mixups.

The real mixup is in the train of thought.

I mean I'm still a noob when it comes to these things, I think I just mixed up 50/50 and mixup LOL oops

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Ketchup straight up says it matters on his most recent tier list

Thats mostly because we are only 3 months into this game and matchup numbers are still being fleshed out. In tournament skill level and lack of character knowledge factor in hugely. At every Major we have seen lack of MU knowledge. Every character can make top 8 just some are easier than others to do so. No character can 10-0 the cast I'd argue there isn't even 7-3's more like 6.5's at worst or 6-4's

I do feel several characters should get help with thier moves, variations, KB's, FB's and hitboxes. But I think even my Kotal has a change to place top 8 in the right hands.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

So I need to be clear.

What are the tools you lack that make you low tier?

What are the tools you need to make you mid tier?

I am asking because Kung Lao to me is considered mid tier.

You have others saying he is low tier regardless of his placing.

So what is it that qualifies him to be mid tier?

If he is low tier than why is he low?

I have heard YouTube videos and all they say is he is garbage and they speak about Kung Lao's frame data.

So I want people to elaborate to me his tier placement and what qualifies as low tier.

Also does low tier even me garbage in MK11?

I truly want to know because if it is about F0xy studying player tendencies than I need to strictly understand the tools Kung Lao has and I need to understand if his tools qualify for him to be mid tier or low tier.

Gimmicks are punishable or very risky and out if the characters favor compared to what they gain.. For example Lao can throw you all day off amazing staggers and that will mix you up all day long no matter how good of a player you are, because its a guess(50/50 or more realistically a 30/30/30 for most).
If you guess wrong and try to punish his grab you can eat 30- 40% most characters won't get Laid damage in a punish and he can play safe to open up characters without really taking risks.

Kotal seems like he was built around F3 tick which was removed on day 1. His staggers are not great and his setups are pretty reactable and everything he has us risky on top if that he can wife when doing the right thing. His tools vs the cast us not the best and suffers where mid tiers do not.

Kollector is a good example because he has true 50/50's. The problem is both of them are punishable on block and he only gets 5% on hit and gives them wakeup options. Then come the gimmicks if that wasn't bad enough, he has poke into DB3/CMD Grab which is far less than 25% for a full combo punish on block. If he had true 50/50's or mid/throw he wouldn't be a gimmicky character.

Kano is the same, he has true 50/50's but there is an option select to beat both removing the guess and his reward off his 24xxCMD Grab and 241+3. So he has to do string/D1 Kano Ball Gimmicks. Which is very risky for low reward.

The point is theta lack tools or are very risky to use. This may be gimmicks, lack of tools, low reward or hotbox issues but that's why they are lower on the tiers. Just because a top player makes top 8 doesn't make the character great. Look at Biohazard in MKX with bottom tier vannila Ferra/Tor. He did work with that character but that says more about his skill and opponents lack of MU knowledge than tiers.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I agree she needs to be nerfed. Her F4 is too good, especially when she has access to B2 and F34.

Hey V.
What he is saying is top players wont fall for her F3 low because they just fuzzy block low to overhead every time its also 18f startup so only used after knockdown for the plus frames. Cassie mix isn't 50/50's at least true ones her mix is number of hit and staggers which is a form of guess that is very strong in this game.

She has tons of ways to open up opponents and tools for every situation. F4 throw since its an amazing stagger, F41, F4 into F41, F4 backup shimmy and has footsie tools that are amazing B2 is basically an auto shimmy like her 11 since it sets up wiff.

In high level I never see B13 or F34 used other than sonics going ham with B1xxgun shots. In Yass Queen I like using F412/F41xxBLB MUX em up between high and mid so if they start punishing the 2 I can catch em with a combo that leads to +10 restand.

 

[Vslayer]

Hey V.
What he us saying us top players winter fall for her F3 low because they just fuzzy block low to overhead every tine its also 18f startup so only used after knockdown for the plus frames. Cassie mix isn't 50/50's at least true ones her mix us number of hit and staggers which is a form of guess that is very strong in this game.

She has tons of ways to open up opponents and tools for every situation. F4 throw since its an amazing stagger, F41, F4 into F41, F4 backup shimmy and has footsie tools that are amazing B2 is basically an auto shimmy like her 11 since it sets up wiff.

In high level I never see B13 or F34 used other than sonics going ham with B1xxgun shots. In Yass Queen I like using F412/F41xxBLB MUX em up between high and mud so if they start punishing the 2 I can catch em with a combo that leads to +10 rest and.

Yeah, that's what I meant, I just didn't know how to explain it as well as you did XD Cassie has so many options whereas the rest of the cast that isn't top tier, don't have all of that. The dude was just angry and couldn't explain it to me as you did, it's okay some people don't know how to talk to other humans.

I understand that in this game, shimmies and whiff punishing is a big part of how to open your opponent up and if your character doesn't have good advancing moves that you can hit confirm into full combos, then they will have to rely on gimmicks to get damage in most situations, not all tho. That's how I see it and that's why I think lower-tier characters have a way different game plan than top tiers.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I agree she needs to be nerfed. Her F4 is too good, especially when she has access to B2 and F34.

I honestly don't think she needs a nerd her mixup is more honest than MKX HTB's, Vortex and cancelable true 50/50's.

The difference to me is she has to condition her mix and work for it compared to Sonya who just does low/overhead and gets guaranteed 20% off low midscreen or 35% rest and off overhead. And she doesn't have to condition it. Shao Kahn gets 20% off his low but nothing close to hers.
Yes Cassie can open up characters easier than lower tiers but it far from broke. I'm sure some are just salty because she has a Zero on block stagger but it does push them back requiring micro dash and can interrupt the throw or followup and you can bait her follow-ups.

I wish more bottom tiers where like her. She has tools for everything.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Yeah, that's what I meant, I just didn't know how to explain it as well as you did XD Cassie has so many options whereas the rest of the cast that isn't top tier, don't have all of that. The dude was just angry and couldn't explain it to me as you did, it's okay some people don't know how to talk to other humans.

I understand that in this game, shimmies and whiff punishing is a big part of how to open your opponent up and if your character doesn't have good advancing moves that you can hit confirm into full combos, then they will have to rely on gimmicks to get damage in most situations, not all tho. That's how I see it and that's why I think lower-tier characters have a way different game plan than top tiers.

I'm hoping they just fix hitbox issues, KB's and give lower tiers a few more tools or combo paths to make them more fun. Maybe a few more variations would be nice and maybe rethink some of the current ones.

 

[Vslayer]

I honestly don't think she needs a nerd her mixup is more honest than MKX HTB's, Vortex and cancelable true 50/50's.

The difference to me is she has to condition her mix and work for it compared to Sonya who just does low/overhead and gets guaranteed 20% off low midscreen or 35% rest and off overhead. And she doesn't have to condition it. Shao Kahn gets 20% off his low but nothing close to hers.
Yes Cassie can open up characters easier than lower tiers but it far from broke. I'm sure some are just salty because she has a Zero on block stagger but it does push them back requiring micro dash and can interrupt the throw or followup and you can bait her follow-ups.

I wish more bottom tiers where like her. She has tools for everything.

Yeah she doesn't need big changes, just small tweaks. As you said she doesn't have real 50/50's, but she has a lot of tools to condition the opponent with, tools that lead to full combos. I think if they have to change something about her, make it so people can contest F4, cause right now it beats most button presses.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Yeah she doesn't need big changes, just small tweaks. As you said she doesn't have real 50/50's, but she has a lot of tools to condition the opponent with, tools that lead to full combos. I think if they have to change something about her, make it so people can contest F4, cause right now it beats most button presses.

I believe that already exsists I don't see others having a problem contesting her F4 after stagger they can just back up. Many characters have great hitboxes on buttons like Kollector F12, Erron B2, Kotal F2, Geras J2, Kabal B12/F22 on and on

I'd rather lower tiers get stuff to help them vs the best tools in the game. I don't want characters to get stale after the hammer

 

[Hellbringer]

For the record, what I hate the most is kung laos teleport, they should make it 50 frames instead of 30, it's nearly unreactable vs zoning.

Come on now dude lol thats abit exagerated.

On topic nobody said kung lao is low tier.
Getting top 8 with midtier or upper mid isnt really mindblowing.

 

[Qwark28]

Come on now dude lol thats abit exagerated.

On topic nobody said kung lao is low tier.
Getting top 8 with midtier or upper mid isnt really mindblowing.

thats the point

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

thats the point

I feel like its reactable offline. Of course if you throw a projectile he can punish it but that's to be expected. Why are you wanting his TP to get a nerf its already 30f startup with visual effects to indicate its approach. Every teleport in the game can punish certain projectiles but I'd argue even his can't punish every projectile unless its very slow to startup or the opponent is telegraphing their zoning habits.

But I do hate playing Laos online because it becomes near impossible to D1 convert in high ping senerios but that can be said about any move and I wouldn't want the games moves changed based off online ping.

 

[MagicMan357]

Yes because most people just bandwagon who ever they see in top 4 especially. This happens every tournament, its just a factor of the community which is why i dont care for tier lists.

 

[Vagrant]

The relationship between tool sets isn't going to change because of tournament results so I don't use them for how I view character strength.

What tournaments can do however is increase awareness of how strong or weak a tool set is. Or open peoples eyes to a way of understanding the game and character strength that they didn't previously see. A problem though is that imo, the majority of people have a hard time differentiating when it's a matchup issue vs when a player is out playing another player due to matchup inexperience or due to the opponents inability to adjust.

Imo tier discussion based on tournament results is flawed but so damn tempting for people that it's just something you learn to accept. lol

 

[Swindle]

I was watching a youtube video saying Kung Lao is complete and utter trash and has absoutely nothing going for him. Yet I have seen him do well in CEO, Viennality and I recently saw him win VSFIGHTING as well as get 2nd place at Defend the North.

If I see that and I say I think he's mid tier but then the other person in the youtube videos and comments are like nah this tournament in the EU don't count and this tournament doesn't count because these players weren't here, and this tournament don't count because they didn't know the match-up then how do we know how and when those characters shift in the tier list?

I also understand your point on MU charts which would then have one question entire tier lists period but top players still make them anyway and it does seem based off of tournament results more often than not.

Don’t ever watch a YT vid from that individual again. Lao is absolutely NOT trash, and that person is unskilled and poorly informed.