It needs to be said. Online some characters are stronger.

[gam224]

We’re getting to that point in the meta where people are starting to create and debate tier lists. In this climate however there is something of great importance few people talk about. Online some characters are far stronger. Take sub zero. Offline it’s possible to fuzzy or react to forward 2 so you can punish it. Online however it’s a different story. Sub zero turns into a mix machine. That’s also true for characters like Erron who are easier to defend against online. Despite this being the most balanced game at launch so far the effects of online play are more important than ever due to strict timing mechanics like hop and flawless block. These need to be taken into consideration for balancing as we need a game that is both good from an online aspect (mainly due to pro tours) and offline for majors. How do we appease both parties?

 

[Gaxkang]

Yeah Sub Zero benefits, Scorpion definitely benefits. And eh, I think Erron benefits too.

I think the online helps out cheesiness a lot, and the better dial mixup's (being harder to block).

 

[gam224]

Yeah Sub Zero benefits, Scorpion definitely benefits. And eh, I think Erron benefits too.

I think the online helps out cheesiness a lot, and the better dial mixup's (being harder to block).

Characters are also more safe. Online Liu kangs will stagger forward 4 which is -9. I think that’s a big part of why you see a lot of high ranking Liu kangs online but few in tournaments.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

I can't even block the damn Jade overhead fatal blow online.

 

[gam224]

I can't even block the damn Jade overhead fatal blow online.

Jade is a true 50/50 character online.

 

[Megax Rocker]

I wish more people would play Sub zero so I could learn how to deal with him.

I body almost every Scorpion I face online with Kotal due to getting used to the match up, but when a random Sub zero pops up, I Kotally Khan't do anything.

 

[Gaxkang]

Characters are also more safe. Online Liu kangs will stagger forward 4 which is -9. I think that’s a big part of why you see a lot of high ranking Liu kangs online but few in tournaments.

Yup Liu Kang's are a total pain online. Then ya add in his projectiles, or teleporting, or his flying kick.

I can't even block the damn Jade overhead fatal blow online.

Yup, even her normal overhead attack, online ya can't really react to it.

 

[NaughtySenpai]

Imo you don't change anything. The online qualifiers shouldn't be taken into account when balancing the game. I don't want the game to have scrubby buffer windows or artificial input delay added to the offline version to bring it on par with the online version.

This is a fighting game after all and should be played in person, where it should feel buttersmooth. Right now it does and the netcode is good enough so that it's just a few frames of delay when playing with people in the 10-80 ms range.

I mean seriously it's not like some online scrubs dominate the online qualifiers. You're still seeing the top players going into top 8, so whatevs.

Just gotta get used to online being a bit more about reads and offline being easier to play more reactive.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Every Kharacter is better online than offline due to Visual&Input lag.
Kharacters with slower strings and punishable normals go from low/Mid tier to A-S tier. You can stagger off -5 on block moves when offline there isn't a way to do so safely.
Its mostly due to online getting worse after last patch but with more than 100ms you are looking at delay from 6f to 12f delay and worse.
-13 moves on block become safe in the best connections, pokes and throws become unbelievable. Scrubby tactics become godlike.
Kotal is actually good online but the ones that stand out as S Tier online who I normally see A+ tier offline are:
Kabal, Jax, Jacqui, Cassie, Baraka, Sub Zero, Cetrion, Erron, Sonya.

Jade and Scarlet become godlike.
Kotal and Shao become mid tier.

Its because of delay that reaction, punishers, counter poking, anti airs, flawless block, jailing from pokes become impossible making the game world's apart from offline.
However I do not believe any character should ever be changed based on online play. Local tournament should be the baseline.

 

[Moms4lif3]

While I understand where you’re coming from the game needs to be balanced targeting offline play. Some characters are better online of course, but that doesn’t mean they’re unbalanced. Sub’s mix for example is good online, but it’s still unsafe and the character also has other issues that prevent him from being too good. The online play is pretty good overall imo and I enjoy it a lot. Punishing may be a little easier offline, but most things that are unsafe, are minus enough to still get consistently punished. I mean you can literally punish things that are -10 online if you’re quick enough, although the time window is quite small.

Balancing things I a way that benefits offline play will also benefit balancing online imo.

 

[Moms4lif3]

Its mostly due to online getting worse after last patch but with more than 100ms you are looking at delay from 6f to 12f delay and worse.
-13 moves on block become safe in the best connections, pokes and throws become unbelievable. Scrubby tactics become godlike.

I agree to some of your points but this one is simply not true, at least I have not experienced that. Yes, if you play against someone on WiFi and with yellow bar punishing -13 stuff is hard/impossible. But in a good connection it really should not matter too much. I literally fought a skarlet half an hour ago who did not hitconfirm 212, it’s -11 and I punished it a couple of times. It was difficult but definitely possible.

 

[Juggs]

Scorpion, Sub-Zero, Jade, Liu Kang and Skarlet are much better online. Any zoner is better, but also any character with good rushdown where offline you can blow up gaps and negative strings. Whereas online the negative becomes plus, lol.

 

[Eh SnOwY]

Liu kang F43 stagger with Lag

now thats a Yike

 

[Geoffmeister]

As is the case with every fighting game... Tekken has had seperate tierlists for offline/online deathmatches/tournament format.. It's all just math right. Online (stable wired 60ms) is gonna give you leeway on about 3frames, in my experience.
As an easy example, Erron doesn't have a real OH/Low mixup game offline, slide is 21frames, this is reactable midstring. Online you're guessing. If you're expecting a F4 from range, then that's different. Another example are characters reliant on staggers/pressure.. -3 might as well be neutral. Same thing, reactions become reads...

Offline you're not gonna play as aggressive with staggers, or you're gonna really start confirming pokes, better time AA'ing, better time punishing, some combos change in difficulty. Etc.

Literally an unfixable situation though, with no culprit. Not complaining, it's come a long way as is, but it's also relevant of adapting this to online competitive play.. The higher the ping the worse it gets, the further it becomes from intended by design play. And therefor, it'll always kinda blur the line between who's the better player..

 

[GLoRToR]

MK11 online tier list

S+ Tier: D1 throw, D1D1D1D1 throw, D1D1D1D1D1D1D1D1 throw
S Tier: Scorpion
A Tier: Other teleporters
B Tier: Zoners, Liu Kang
C Tier: Anyone that doesn't fit into the above categories

 

[CrimsonShadow]

MK11 online tier list

S+ Tier: D1 throw, D1D1D1D1 throw, D1D1D1D1D1D1D1D1 throw

I loooove when people try to do this against me.

It’s like announcing that you’re going to give me a free win. Thanks internet guy — keep on hitting that button and eating these combos

 

[SaltShaker]

Kung Lao's teleport is unpunishable on reaction online unless playing in the best of the best connections, and even then it's inconsistent. Offline it's punishable 10/10 times. That's the bench marker I feel, as you can tell the difference here.

Other things like Sub/Raiden OH, Erron's 50/50s, Jacqui's block pressure, Scorpion's entire moveset, etc are significantly harder to react to online. I would suggest to anyone that has a local nearby to check it out and play some local competition. You'll probably have the time of your life playing if you haven't done so already.

 

[Wazurau]

Imo you don't change anything. The online qualifiers shouldn't be taken into account when balancing the game. I don't want the game to have scrubby buffer windows or artificial input delay added to the offline version to bring it on par with the online version.

This is a fighting game after all and should be played in person, where it should feel buttersmooth. Right now it does and the netcode is good enough so that it's just a few frames of delay when playing with people in the 10-80 ms range.

I mean seriously it's not like some online scrubs dominate the online qualifiers. You're still seeing the top players going into top 8, so whatevs.

Just gotta get used to online being a bit more about reads and offline being easier to play more reactive.

Yeah artificial lag for my lan tournaments is gonna be a hard no. Dont think theyd do that anyway

 

[GLoRToR]

I loooove when people try to do this against me.

It’s like announcing that you’re going to give me a free win. Thanks internet guy — keep on hitting that button and eating these combos

I imagine it must feel great to play a character that has those combos

 

[TotteryManx]

People mashing d1 are so effective online it forced me to pick up characters with 9 frame mids.

 

[FrankOceansWaifu]

Kung Lao is a shit head online

 

[Groove Heaven]

This is true for pretty much any fighting game online, but it's especially obnoxious in NRS games where there are just so many overheads and lows. Everything becomes a read lol

 

[Shanedawg1995]

No dashing blocking is thorn in my side.I was a God like Jax player and Nightwolf player on MK9.Could run with the big boys.
Mk11 no dash blocking screws you over so bad.Try dash blocking Scorpion.I could have a fighting chance with dash blocking against zoners.Try doing that online in Mk11 and eat a spear or a blood ball form Scarlet.

 

[Gaxkang]

I noticed in fights with different Jonny Cage's online that his nut punch for example, was unpunishable. It's -14 on block, and it couldn't be punished with a 7 frame D1.

So you block a whole string, you block the nut punch...and your reward is chip damage and a blocked poke.

 

[kabelfritz]

No dashing blocking is thorn in my side.I was a God like Jax player and Nightwolf player on MK9.Could run with the big boys.
Mk11 no dash blocking screws you over so bad.Try dash blocking Scorpion.I could have a fighting chance with dash blocking against zoners.Try doing that online in Mk11 and eat a spear or a blood ball form Scarlet.

this is so true. it feels like whenever you let go block for just one frame, its the wrong moment and you get hit. as if there was and active frame tornado on screen all the time.