Reo's MK 11 Tier list

[GLoRToR]

i think they should balance it that everyone has some dumb shit. and not over nerf the tops. Buff the lows

That's how I'd prefer it too but it's not so simple.
There are many factors to consider when designing a dynamic clash system between so many variables.
A lot of the time they just don't have the means to test their changes and they may miss things as well.
Let's just say it's way more complicated than it seems.

and for scorpion the only nerf he would need is to not be able to amplify his teleport on block.

Trust me, his amplify is fine, it's how he launches for a combo and it's unsafe on block too.
His cancel being safe is what's making him atrocious to fight. Also, I'd make his teleport start up so slowly that it should only work when cancelled off of a string.

 

[DDustiNN]

So I know this may create a lot of controversy due to the game just coming out, but Reo has just made a tier list for the game so this is not some scrub like me making the tier list. Reo is a highly accomplished player with multiple top 8 placings, runner-up at Evo twice and just an overall very smart fighting game player so I think his opinion carries a lot of weight. People are still figuring out the game, of course, but I always think tier lists are very entertaining and create a lot interesting conversation. With that being said, I'll upload the video with the tier list below. Enjoy guys!

S Tier : Erron Black, Geras, Scorpion, Sonya Blade, Sub Zero

A+ Tier: Baraka, Cassie Cage, Jax, Lui Kang, Noob Saibot

A Tier: Cetrion, Jacqui, Kabal, Kollector, Scarlet

A- Tier: Jade, Johnny Cage, Kano, Kitana, Kung Lao, Raiden

B Tier: D' Vorah, Frost, Kotal Kahn, Shao Kahn

Wtf is with that thumbnail? It’s completely different than the actual list, lol.

 

[sub_on_dubs]

Hopefully they tone down vanilla 50/50 sub and give us a good defensive trap variation soon. Hes so fucking boring and one-note in this game despite his strengths.

I'm a sub main and I agree his 50/50's should probably be toned down although I've heard good arguments on both sides of the debate. I think his Thin Ice variation is fine. I think most are complaining about his Dead of Winter variation that can combo into freeze off his f2 overhead.

 

[sub_on_dubs]

Wtf is with that thumbnail? It’s completely different than the actual list, lol.

Good question. That's directly from his channel so I don't know. Maybe he was trying to create controversy with that thumbnail.

 

[HAMMER]

Thumbnail is an obvious troll move.

 

[sub_on_dubs]

Thumbnail is an obvious troll move.

He is known to be a troll so I'm not surprised at all. Click bait.

 

[sub_on_dubs]

Always a hater in a thread. I'm pretty sure you couldn't get a round off Reo or any top player for that matter. When you get a top 8 placing, I'll consider what you said as legit criticism, but until then, please keep your stupididy to yourself because you sound ignorant af.

Edit: I quoted some dude's post, but he deleted it so it sounds like I'm talking to myself here. FYI

 

[Wemfs]

My boy Noob certainly does hit like a truck. Can't deny it.

Also, REO is a great player, AbeW. Calling him a lackluster player is laughable.

 

[AZ MotherBrain]

Pretty spot on imo

 

[iiizzzunicorn]

I’m glad I’m a casual scrub who couldn’t care less about what character beats out what. Gonna go enjoy my low tier fav and have a jolly good time.

 

[-Nachtmahr-]

Thank the mighty Kahns I never took his tiers too seriously. Sub in the top spot? Nah. His overhead is good and b1 has good range but that's it. His oh is easy to see because it is bound to his weapon, his projectiles might have good properties but they are simply too slow in their startups. If we consider this plus looking at scorps tools in comparison, Subby does not belong in this tier and noob can actually eat him and input 5 teleports before the iceball comes out and in reach, so they could basically swap tier places or sub should not be higher than these 2, one tier behind scorpion at least. Plus Kabal in basically mid tier? He has everything, he even mentions basically everything a good character needs and wants. All he is missing is a teleport. Maybe replace his nomad spin with gas blast or low saw and he will be a nightmare again. Kabals staggers are great too. Only his non weapon parts, 1,1 and his kick overhead have openings. Teleports are his weakness too though since saws are slow and his ndc bound to meter. But hey, nrs serves patches on a plate. Maybe next month all of the bottoms will be top, who knows? Also, fuck Brokeback mountain boy, again.

 

[sub_on_dubs]

My boy Noob certainly does hit like a truck. Can't deny it.

Also, REO is a great player, AbeW. Calling him a lackluster player is laughable.

Wemfs is back from the dead! I remember seeing you in the Mk9 days.

 

[Geoffmeister]

There isn't that much depth to MK11 compared to MK9/X, imo (not a bad thing necessarily). Also, Reo's analysis of the characters has always been pretty well-educated and unbiased... (which would explain why he's usually right about buffs/nerfs before they get patched in)

This couldn't hardly be based on MU experience, but more of what each character is capable of, synergy of their moveset and ability to exploit their best (stupid) options. Based on that I'd say this is a pretty solid list, I don't see anything out of the ordinary.. Maybe Cetrion.. Frost.. Kabal.. Kitana..

Now 2 things:

- 1) If anything to take from this, it's that the the Top Tier (S, A+) is hard to disagree with, theres a pretty big difference in privileged toolkits compared to A and lower, they get access to MKX-levels of bs, which was awful in terms of competition. A- and B tier may be a little underwhelming (and unexplored), but given S-tier and A+-tier nerfs, the margin could be thin enough to balance the game out for everyone.

- 2) There's 2 ways to go about this, developers are listening .. believe it or not... Some variations can have their characters at their best potential (or mitigate weaknesses) simply by swapping abilities... The other option is to nerf/buff, and then we could face similar problems when variations get shifted...

So I think it's important to be specific.. what is best for the game so that it could maybe make a 3rd year at EVO.
Kustom Variations would only make the game more crazy.. which is not the direction they should be going, either way, that may be a good thing if the community can be clear about what's fair and what isn't... so I will attempt:

• Gapless double / loopable mixups can go (Erron)
• AMP TP on Block can go, half his toolset can go (Scorpion)
• Fast (/recovery) on or even ACCESS to these teleports can go (everyone)
• Safe-Mix-Mix-Repeat can go (Sonya)
• "Look at all this stuff I got in exchange for a braindead clone of my braindead self" can go (Sub Zero)
• free Bullet-speed launchers into restands can go (Cassie)
• non-stop ... NON-STOP chase-down a zoning teleporting monstrosity can go (Skarlet) ... (I play JADE and that MU is still dumb)

etc etc.

If characters "NEED" all these tools, when half of the roster does not have access to them, then there's something wrong with the game in general.. imo.. I'd rather have nobody play at that level and play the fighting game. There's actually a real good one underneath all that crap.

 

[TheGlow]

Holy crap, for the first time since UMK3 it looks like my main isnt F tier. Noob ahoy.

 

[SHAOLIN]

. . .and it begins again. . .

 

[GLoRToR]

Undeniably he's become this celebrity status that I disagree with because he's now impossible to actually sit down and chat with anymore.
At the same time I urge you against talking down at people like you just have.
It's unjustified, and does not win you anyone's sympathy in this community.

 

[GLoRToR]

There isn't that much depth to MK11 compared to MK9/X, imo (not a bad thing necessarily). Also, Reo's analysis of the characters has always been pretty well-educated and unbiased... (which would explain why he's usually right about buffs/nerfs before they get patched in)

This couldn't hardly be based on MU experience, but more of what each character is capable of, synergy of their moveset and ability to exploit their best (stupid) options. Based on that I'd say this is a pretty solid list, I don't see anything out of the ordinary.. Maybe Cetrion.. Frost.. Kabal.. Kitana..

Now 2 things:

- 1) If anything to take from this, it's that the the Top Tier (S, A+) is hard to disagree with, theres a pretty big difference in privileged toolkits compared to A and lower, they get access to MKX-levels of bs, which was awful in terms of competition. A- and B tier may be a little underwhelming (and unexplored), but given S-tier and A+-tier nerfs, the margin could be thin enough to balance the game out for everyone.

- 2) There's 2 ways to go about this, developers are listening .. believe it or not... Some variations can have their characters at their best potential (or mitigate weaknesses) simply by swapping abilities... The other option is to nerf/buff, and then we could face similar problems when variations get shifted...

So I think it's important to be specific.. what is best for the game so that it could maybe make a 3rd year at EVO.
Kustom Variations would only make the game more crazy.. which is not the direction they should be going, either way, that may be a good thing if the community can be clear about what's fair and what isn't... so I will attempt:

• Gapless double / loopable mixups can go (Erron)
• AMP TP on Block can go, half his toolset can go (Scorpion)
• Fast (/recovery) on or even ACCESS to these teleports can go (everyone)
• Safe-Mix-Mix-Repeat can go (Sonya)
• "Look at all this stuff I got in exchange for a braindead clone of my braindead self" can go (Sub Zero)
• free Bullet-speed launchers into restands can go (Cassie)
• non-stop ... NON-STOP chase-down a zoning teleporting monstrosity can go (Skarlet) ... (I play JADE and that MU is still dumb)

etc etc.

If characters "NEED" all these tools, when half of the roster does not have access to them, then there's something wrong with the game in general.. imo.. I'd rather have nobody play at that level and play the fighting game. There's actually a real good one underneath all that crap.

I find myself agreeing with you yet again, Geoff.
I feel like some damage adjustments and frame adjustments could solve most of the issues in the game right now, but I don't want characters overnerfed either.
Like I said before: I wouldn't mind how unsafe and how low damage Jade is if others were balanced towards the same guidelines.
A character who does insanely high damage, for example, should be unsafe as all get-out with literally no fullscreen presence, it should have to inch in and then sell an unsafe mixup and either get blown up, or delete your healthbar for Liu Kang amounts.

 

[Deleted member 5032]

People sleeping on Kano.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

"Buff This" Tier: Jade, Cetrion, Jacqui, Kitana, D' Vorah, Frost, Kotal Kahn, Shao Kahn

Jade, Cetrion and Jacqui don't belong in there.

The strong part about kabal is Restand, 9F mid and no gaps. Other than that he isn't anywhere close to Scorpion, SubZero or Sonya.

I'd be fine with Jade getting more comboability if she kept the same damage midscreen say 20-25% midscreen meterless. She has great mix-ups on her B343 and range on B2/F21/B12.

Kotal could use a safe way to get Sunlight out from combo and maybe a better tool to space them out than his slow D4 other than that I think he is fine.

 

[GLoRToR]

Jade, Cetrion and Jacqui don't belong in there.

I simply posted one because now we're posting lists.
Feel free to disagree, but if you want to debate Jade with me, please don't claim that she has mixups.

 

[DayAlreadySucks]

Everyone I’m hearing is bad (Dvorah,Kotal Kahn) is up high and everyone I’m hearing is great/commonly used is low (Noob,Scorpion)
Edit:Well turns out the actual list is ENTIRELY different from the thumbnail. Just wanted to say that who made the thumbnail list is actually dumb

 

[Geoffmeister]

@GLoRToR yeah true, technically it's only a few frame adjustments away from being a (substantially more) respectable fighting game.. they should cool down the situations I mentioned though...

The Kustom Variations is also relevant, are people aware they are playing variations that can become irrelevant later on? Wouldn't it be more appealing for everyone to play their preferred character with preferred playstyle? ..

It's inevitable if you ask me... but to be clear... I want

NERFS

BIG NERFS

DRENCHED IN SALT

no buffs yet... nerf me up (nerf me up inside)

 

[GLoRToR]

@GLoRToR yeah true, technically it's only a few frame adjustments away from being a (substantially more) respectable fighting game.. they should cool down the situations I mentioned though...

The Kustom Variations is also relevant, are people aware they are playing variations that can become irrelevant later on? Wouldn't it be more appealing for everyone to play their preferred character with preferred playstyle? ..

It's inevitable if you ask me... but to be clear... I want

NERFS

BIG NERFS

DRENCHED IN SALT

no buffs yet... nerf me up (nerf me up inside)

I have a bone to pick with advancing mid combo starters, which go full screen and are safe on block, still.
That tool is NOT something I want to see in this game, period.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I find myself agreeing with you yet again, Geoff.
I feel like some damage adjustments and frame adjustments could solve most of the issues in the game right now, but I don't want characters overnerfed either.
Like I said before: I wouldn't mind how unsafe and how low damage Jade is if others were balanced towards the same guidelines.
A character who does insanely high damage, for example, should be unsafe as all get-out with literally no fullscreen presence, it should have to inch in and then sell an unsafe mixup and either get blown up, or delete your healthbar for Liu Kang amounts.

NRS has a bad habit of allowing certain characters strong tools while letting others suffer. I do agree it's BS certain characters don't have combo while others shine. Same as X with certain ones having HTB vortex while others lose them.

I know you are a Jade main and feel the struggle more than others because you understand the faults but I feel she has very strong space control and her Normals are built for it. If she was to get adjustment it should be for zoning not midscreen damage, maybe buff purple immunity on the moves that ignore it. I'd be 100% fine with her getting more launchers if she didn't do more than 25% off them midscreen. What do you think is bad about her. I pocket Jade and main Kotal and I'm able to get her F2 out when I'm spaced correctly and only use it at the proper range. It can also be hit confirmed into second hit and cancel. Many characters have to condition to get thier strongest tools out.

I feel like Kotal has many issues up close and far away and only shines at footsie mid range the problem is everything is high and slow and his pokes to keep em away are slow and his mid range tools put him in thier face on block and pushback is deleted by crouch block so he is put in his worst distance after making reads which is his wheelhouse. What I hate the most about Kotal is he can't get sunlight out safely against characters with semi fast advancing moves and 34 is the only semi safe way to put it out. His Amped Sunlight is death anywhere on screen.

What do you think.

 

[Pan1cMode]

Safe-Mix-Mix-Repeat can go (Sonya)

I mean, I think Sonya is hella strong; but her mix isn’t safe. Both options are punishable.

 

[GLoRToR]

NRS has a bad habit of allowing certain characters strong tools while letting others suffer. I do agree it's BS certain characters don't have combo while others shine. Same as X with certain ones having HTB vortex while others lose them.

I know you are a Jade main and feel the struggle more than others because you understand the faults but I feel she has very strong space control and her Normals are built for it. If she was to get adjustment it should be for zoning not midscreen damage, maybe buff purple immunity on the moves that ignore it. I'd be 100% fine with her getting more launchers if she didn't do more than 25% off them midscreen. What do you think is bad about her. I pocket Jade and main Kotal and I'm able to get her F2 out when I'm spaced correctly and only use it at the proper range. It can also be hit confirmed into second hit and cancel. Many characters have to condition to get thier strongest tools out.

I feel like Kotal has many issues up close and far away and only shines at footsie mid range the problem is everything is high and slow and his pokes to keep em away are slow and his mid range tools put him in thier face on block and pushback is deleted by crouch block so he is put in his worst distance after making reads which is his wheelhouse. What I hate the most about Kotal is he can't get sunlight out safely against characters with semi fast advancing moves and 34 is the only semi safe way to put it out. His Amped Sunlight is death anywhere on screen.

What do you think.

I'll take this to the general discussion thread instead so we don't clog this space up with Jaded talk.