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Beta Black Canary Discussion/Tech Thread

x TeeJay o

Canary Cry Gapless Pressure
Lmao I know you said that grenade is more like +3 but that block adv is hilarious. May still be useful
Possibly we just went though a quick run through cause I'm heading to bed lol. We did the jump and poke test for the advantage. I'll try and look into it more tomorrow but for now Ima stick with it's poopy poop
 

Raiderhorn

White Lotus
The command grab is actually pretty good. Nasty tick throws
Just played 1 hour + Black Canary mirror with someone, both of us really improved. I finally got my timing down on not resetting combos after landing a jump punch following MB bf2. I found the timing to be a bit strict imo but once I got it it's second nature.

And yeah the guy I played against had the tick throw. It ticks off a lot of stuff, and to me does a nice chunk of damage despite no restand. I can't find a way to escape it/make a read. If he does it and I'm blocking, it hits me. I don't know what to do about it. So right now I believe that command grab shouldn't be overlooked
 

x TeeJay o

Canary Cry Gapless Pressure
thanks man. she's so unsafe without trait lol.
Yup lol. I wash proposing in the Canary discord some thoughts and changes I'd do if she was designed by me.


Remove the OH string of 23
Make 21 -3 on block
Make the OH +5 with less pushback


This would allow her to play safer without relying on trait too much. Sure you could just block low on her all day,but you have a +5 OH to condition them to respect. I'm not a big fan of the 50/50 stuff I'd rather her have the command grab as a special with better frames than to have unsafe 50/50 mixups that she can make safe by either a. Giving up position with db3, or b. Using trait.

But idk changes like ones above could really hurt or help a character too much so that's all in theory. But I feel like I'd rather have her be a command grab character who hits hard af over the 50/50 stuff
 

primedirective

Canaries and Flying Rodents
Yup lol. I wash proposing in the Canary discord some thoughts and changes I'd do if she was designed by me.


Remove the OH string of 23
Make 21 -3 on block
Make the OH +5 with less pushback


This would allow her to play safer without relying on trait too much. Sure you could just block low on her all day,but you have a +5 OH to condition them to respect. I'm not a big fan of the 50/50 stuff I'd rather her have the command grab as a special with better frames than to have unsafe 50/50 mixups that she can make safe by either a. Giving up position with db3, or b. Using trait.

But idk changes like ones above could really hurt or help a character too much so that's all in theory. But I feel like I'd rather have her be a command grab character who hits hard af over the 50/50 stuff
The things I'd really like to see changed for Canary are actually fixing her trait meter so that it starts full like everyone else in the game and recharges between rounds. Then I'd add a little bigger of a window on her cartwheel to get through projectiles. Just a frame or two. Because it's EXCEPTIONALLY difficult to get in on zoners. I've had way too many matches where a good Batman/Kryptonian with some meter can keep me out for nearly half my last life bar with zoning tactics. A special that is actually useful on wakeup would be nice, too. But you can't have everything.

Speaking of which, what are you guys doing to get in on the zoners? BB seems to be no prob, but as mentioned, Bats and the Supers frustrate me to hell and especially the Supers chip away at me for days.
 

x TeeJay o

Canary Cry Gapless Pressure
The things I'd really like to see changed for Canary are actually fixing her trait meter so that it starts full like everyone else in the game and recharges between rounds. Then I'd add a little bigger of a window on her cartwheel to get through projectiles. Just a frame or two. Because it's EXCEPTIONALLY difficult to get in on zoners. I've had way too many matches where a good Batman/Kryptonian with some meter can keep me out for nearly half my last life bar with zoning tactics. A special that is actually useful on wakeup would be nice, too. But you can't have everything.

Speaking of which, what are you guys doing to get in on the zoners? BB seems to be no prob, but as mentioned, Bats and the Supers frustrate me to hell and especially the Supers chip away at me for days.
BB is a nightmare for me. I've started to use mb roll as means to get in but only once they are closer to the corner. that way i can try and keep em there and get my offense going. I like the trait suggestion as well. Not sure why hers is the way it is but I guess we shall see what they do
 
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primedirective

Canaries and Flying Rodents
BB is a nightmare for me. I've started to use mb roll as means to get in but only once they are closer to the corner. that way i can try and keep em there and get my offense going. I like the trait suggestion as well. Not sure why hers is the way it is but I guess we shall see what they do
Maybe I just haven't run into many good BBs. Supergirl's DB1 KILLS my oki/pressure game. It feels like it has priority over any attack I throw at her and easily stops crossups or Canary Drop. I try to bait it out to retialiate, but if she has meter she can MB and drop with her powerful Air 1. So essentially any good Supergirl I know can use that move to reset to neutral after I get them with a hard knockdown. Can't seem to get it with the parry either.
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
Speaking of which, what are you guys doing to get in on the zoners? BB seems to be no prob, but as mentioned, Bats and the Supers frustrate me to hell and especially the Supers chip away at me for days.
Lol what BB zones her out the most than anyone else. At least she can punish lasers with trait or anything upclose or duck rangs and punish with trait on a read. A good BB tho? Yea good luck lol. You can't even jump a projectile without getting hit by the next one if they are zoning correctly. Hate that match
 

x TeeJay o

Canary Cry Gapless Pressure
Yeah dude fuck super girls d1. Shit needs to be a mid lol. I never realized how obnoxious is was until I stopped playing her and started playing against her >.<
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Just a reminder on the grenade, the +71 is due to Canary being able to move well before it explodes. If I had to guesstimate based on the startup, the toss animation recovers in 42 frames. Likely too slow for any setups not involving some sort of plant that leaves you that plus.
 
So Canary does a few things very well. Once she gets in on an opponent she can drain their health bar pretty quickly, using 2 or more bars plus trait. Her set ups are really good and being capable of leaving an opponent standing and her at +18 (1,1 after trait) is really strong. It opens the discussion of "typical NRS 50/50s", but what 50/50s does she actually have? 2,1 (mid, low, mid), 2,3 (mid overhead) and she can cancel with trait to stay safe, or +5 with lvl 2. She also has left/right 50/50s with Canary Drop. Ok fine. At face value that can definitely appear to be braindead NRS 50/50s all day. But besides using her precious trait, which has many different uses other than safety, they're punishable on block and once people have more experience against her there's only a couple that are actually (mildly) difficult to block.

Her 2,1 and 2,3 mix up doesn't really work against top players. 2,3 has a gap and once that player sees you're not doing 2,1 they will poke you out 9 out of 10 times. That also stops the 2 delayed overhead/low shenanigan. Even on hit standing 2 is + 8 and causes a slight push back. And if you use those frames to stagger into the overhead, for example, that comes out in 19 frames. This may work more often than doing raw 2,1/2,3 just because you're disrupting the rhythm of the strings but more often than not, if you don't do the low option after staggering just a couple frames, they're either going to poke you out of it or simply walk backwards out of your reach.

So as I said, and despite what I just said, her set ups are really good and really hard to deal with 100% of the time. So her flaws: she has to actually get in to even start her game. Her walkspeed is underwhelming, her dashes are underwhelming and her cartwheel seems like something easily dealt with once, a good player, gets used to the start up animation and either pokes you out of it or punishes its recovery. Even using her Scissor Kick is punishable at -18, Crazy Legs is only -9 but is 27 frames start up. So basically, her tools to get in on an opponent, outside of MB roll (which I use a lot), are very lacking. "But what about trait bro? Trait is f*ckin godlike bro" Yes, trait is great. It's especially great against zoners and catching your opponent moving or jumping. EXCEPT when it's traded with, she loses all advantage if it trades fullscreen or if it's traded with something that has a lot of hitstun, and if you're against a character like BB or SM who can alter their jump arc, the whole trait can whiff. And once she's down trait at full screen, there's not much she can do besides wait for trait to recharge and walk and duck in. Or the Hail Mary MB roll.

So once she's in footsie range. She's gotten in out of zoning range and is sitting mid to close range. What's her footsie tools? Well she has an 11 frame mid, that's good. Doesn't have the best range but it's great for punishing very negative things in close. A 6 frame high that leads to a hit confirmable string. Negative on block unless you use 1,1,3, cancel into trait, or (something that makes her lose range) backflip. Her standing 3 is really nice. Another 11 frame mid that has a lot more reach than standing 2, but isn't really hit confirmable. You pretty much have to commit to something. 3,3 is safe and causes HKD but can't be confirmed into anything else besides a Canary Drop set up. Otherwise you're back to the trait/backflip options. B1, her low, that's 16 frames on start up, links to Knee, Trait, and even Canary Drop. B1,2 string is only -10, right on that line of punishable and safe depending on the situation (character tools, player reflex), really good range, but on the slow side at 16 frames of start up. If used as a whiff punisher, unless it's against one of those damn floating characters (SM's F23), it's great.

Her walkspeed and dash also makes it, not impossible, but definitely difficult to consistently whiff punish and benefit from good spacing. Especially something like SM's F23 (yeap, I hate it). So many times I've caused a SM player to whiff F2 but I'm still close enough that I have to block the 3. There's an extremely small window in the spacing where a really good SM player will whip the F23 string and you can simply keep walking back and whiff punish easily. If you put too much space she can't dash up to whiff punish because the recovery takes too long and walking is iffy to get close enough, fast enough, for a 1,1,2 punish, or the good SM player won't use that string if they know it won't hit. Again, 3 may work great for this, I haven't had the opportunity to really test that.

So, all in all, she's a really solid character! Set ups for days, really good damage, good full screen punisher with her trait. She just lacks in a few key areas, in certain MUs, to start playing her game. Now this could be so she can be balanced. It makes sense for a character that has strong oki and damage to have a difficult time with zoners and strong footsie characters. I'm all for that, but can we please talk about Batman who has really good zoning and insane pressure? Lol I don't play BM so I don't know, but it appears he has tools for any screen position.

But those are my thoughts. I may have missed a couple things or maybe I'm looking at something wrong? Give me your thoughts. Love Canary, but I'll be surprised if I'll end up staying with her once the full game releases. As of right now she feels like she'll be somewhere in upper mid tier range. Totally blind speculation, (IN A BETA!!), but that's just my opinion right now.
 

x TeeJay o

Canary Cry Gapless Pressure
So Canary does a few things very well. Once she gets in on an opponent she can drain their health bar pretty quickly, using 2 or more bars plus trait. Her set ups are really good and being capable of leaving an opponent standing and her at +18 (1,1 after trait) is really strong. It opens the discussion of "typical NRS 50/50s", but what 50/50s does she actually have? 2,1 (mid, low, mid), 2,3 (mid overhead) and she can cancel with trait to stay safe, or +5 with lvl 2. She also has left/right 50/50s with Canary Drop. Ok fine. At face value that can definitely appear to be braindead NRS 50/50s all day. But besides using her precious trait, which has many different uses other than safety, they're punishable on block and once people have more experience against her there's only a couple that are actually (mildly) difficult to block.

Her 2,1 and 2,3 mix up doesn't really work against top players. 2,3 has a gap and once that player sees you're not doing 2,1 they will poke you out 9 out of 10 times. That also stops the 2 delayed overhead/low shenanigan. Even on hit standing 2 is + 8 and causes a slight push back. And if you use those frames to stagger into the overhead, for example, that comes out in 19 frames. This may work more often than doing raw 2,1/2,3 just because you're disrupting the rhythm of the strings but more often than not, if you don't do the low option after staggering just a couple frames, they're either going to poke you out of it or simply walk backwards out of your reach.

So as I said, and despite what I just said, her set ups are really good and really hard to deal with 100% of the time. So her flaws: she has to actually get in to even start her game. Her walkspeed is underwhelming, her dashes are underwhelming and her cartwheel seems like something easily dealt with once, a good player, gets used to the start up animation and either pokes you out of it or punishes its recovery. Even using her Scissor Kick is punishable at -18, Crazy Legs is only -9 but is 27 frames start up. So basically, her tools to get in on an opponent, outside of MB roll (which I use a lot), are very lacking. "But what about trait bro? Trait is f*ckin godlike bro" Yes, trait is great. It's especially great against zoners and catching your opponent moving or jumping. EXCEPT when it's traded with, she loses all advantage if it trades fullscreen or if it's traded with something that has a lot of hitstun, and if you're against a character like BB or SM who can alter their jump arc, the whole trait can whiff. And once she's down trait at full screen, there's not much she can do besides wait for trait to recharge and walk and duck in. Or the Hail Mary MB roll.

So once she's in footsie range. She's gotten in out of zoning range and is sitting mid to close range. What's her footsie tools? Well she has an 11 frame mid, that's good. Doesn't have the best range but it's great for punishing very negative things in close. A 6 frame high that leads to a hit confirmable string. Negative on block unless you use 1,1,3, cancel into trait, or (something that makes her lose range) backflip. Her standing 3 is really nice. Another 11 frame mid that has a lot more reach than standing 2, but isn't really hit confirmable. You pretty much have to commit to something. 3,3 is safe and causes HKD but can't be confirmed into anything else besides a Canary Drop set up. Otherwise you're back to the trait/backflip options. B1, her low, that's 16 frames on start up, links to Knee, Trait, and even Canary Drop. B1,2 string is only -10, right on that line of punishable and safe depending on the situation (character tools, player reflex), really good range, but on the slow side at 16 frames of start up. If used as a whiff punisher, unless it's against one of those damn floating characters (SM's F23), it's great.

Her walkspeed and dash also makes it, not impossible, but definitely difficult to consistently whiff punish and benefit from good spacing. Especially something like SM's F23 (yeap, I hate it). So many times I've caused a SM player to whiff F2 but I'm still close enough that I have to block the 3. There's an extremely small window in the spacing where a really good SM player will whip the F23 string and you can simply keep walking back and whiff punish easily. If you put too much space she can't dash up to whiff punish because the recovery takes too long and walking is iffy to get close enough, fast enough, for a 1,1,2 punish, or the good SM player won't use that string if they know it won't hit. Again, 3 may work great for this, I haven't had the opportunity to really test that.

So, all in all, she's a really solid character! Set ups for days, really good damage, good full screen punisher with her trait. She just lacks in a few key areas, in certain MUs, to start playing her game. Now this could be so she can be balanced. It makes sense for a character that has strong oki and damage to have a difficult time with zoners and strong footsie characters. I'm all for that, but can we please talk about Batman who has really good zoning and insane pressure? Lol I don't play BM so I don't know, but it appears he has tools for any screen position.

But those are my thoughts. I may have missed a couple things or maybe I'm looking at something wrong? Give me your thoughts. Love Canary, but I'll be surprised if I'll end up staying with her once the full game releases. As of right now she feels like she'll be somewhere in upper mid tier range. Totally blind speculation, (IN A BETA!!), but that's just my opinion right now.
Yep nailed it pretty much. I will post my thoughts on her when the beta ends and how i felt she stood up to the others. All of this is subject to change so I am not giving up on my character in the slightest. For all we know, she could get a new move,new properties on flipkick,increase in walkspeed ect. Just make sure we give them good feedback and not a bunch of nerf and buff requests.
 

Raiderhorn

White Lotus
Hey all, found what seems to be an Ambiguous Crossup Corner setup.

This is still an early work in progress and needs to be refined. Any further testing would be appreciated.

End a juggle into cartwheel, and jump. From my experience it seems that:
-Jump 1 hits in front
-Jump 2 hits behind (crosses up)

This concept also works on block. If the opponent is blocking, cancel your string into cartwheel then jump.
So far this doesn't seem to work on Supergirl as Jump 1 and Jump 2 seem to always hit behind though she can escape this easily with her rising punch on wakeup. Many others can escape this easily with certain movements, invincible wakeups, etc. Perhaps restanding the opponent and trying it out could be looked into or maybe if they're stunned with a Level 2 Scream if a cartwheel can set this up.

You can layer this further by going for Jump 1 which hits in front and cancelling it into her overhead flip which will crossup if blocked, and combo if hit (last clip in the video). So they'd have to block 2 directions, if they read that you are going to cancel into that flip or not.


@x TeeJay o @Eddy Wang @CrimsonShadow @xKhaoTik @REO @others
Sorry if you didn't want a tag I'm just tagging notable BC members in the thread or if you wanted a tag just let me know for future
 

x TeeJay o

Canary Cry Gapless Pressure
Hey all, found what seems to be an Ambiguous Crossup Corner setup.

This is still an early work in progress and needs to be refined. Any further testing would be appreciated.

End a juggle into cartwheel, and jump. From my experience it seems that:
-Jump 1 hits in front
-Jump 2 hits behind (crosses up)

This concept also works on block. If the opponent is blocking, cancel your string into cartwheel then jump.
So far this doesn't seem to work on Supergirl as Jump 1 and Jump 2 seem to always hit behind though she can escape this easily with her rising punch on wakeup. Many others can escape this easily with certain movements, invincible wakeups, etc. Perhaps restanding the opponent and trying it out could be looked into or maybe if they're stunned with a Level 2 Scream if a cartwheel can set this up.

You can layer this further by going for Jump 1 which hits in front and cancelling it into her overhead flip which will crossup if blocked, and combo if hit (last clip in the video). So they'd have to block 2 directions, if they read that you are going to cancel into that flip or not.


@x TeeJay o @Eddy Wang @CrimsonShadow @xKhaoTik @REO @others
Sorry if you didn't want a tag I'm just tagging notable BC members in the thread or if you wanted a tag just let me know for future
Lmaoo good shit. I've been doing this to @Superman Rz but I always hit by Supermans wakeup air throw thing. This is cool that it potentially crosses up tho !
 

primedirective

Canaries and Flying Rodents
Yep nailed it pretty much. I will post my thoughts on her when the beta ends and how i felt she stood up to the others. All of this is subject to change so I am not giving up on my character in the slightest. For all we know, she could get a new move,new properties on flipkick,increase in walkspeed ect. Just make sure we give them good feedback and not a bunch of nerf and buff requests.
I never thought about how useful just a slight increase in walk speed could be. Would make dealing wait patient zoners much more hopeful.
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
Hey all, found what seems to be an Ambiguous Crossup Corner setup.

This is still an early work in progress and needs to be refined. Any further testing would be appreciated.

End a juggle into cartwheel, and jump. From my experience it seems that:
-Jump 1 hits in front
-Jump 2 hits behind (crosses up)

This concept also works on block. If the opponent is blocking, cancel your string into cartwheel then jump.
So far this doesn't seem to work on Supergirl as Jump 1 and Jump 2 seem to always hit behind though she can escape this easily with her rising punch on wakeup. Many others can escape this easily with certain movements, invincible wakeups, etc. Perhaps restanding the opponent and trying it out could be looked into or maybe if they're stunned with a Level 2 Scream if a cartwheel can set this up.

You can layer this further by going for Jump 1 which hits in front and cancelling it into her overhead flip which will crossup if blocked, and combo if hit (last clip in the video). So they'd have to block 2 directions, if they read that you are going to cancel into that flip or not.


@x TeeJay o @Eddy Wang @CrimsonShadow @xKhaoTik @REO @others
Sorry if you didn't want a tag I'm just tagging notable BC members in the thread or if you wanted a tag just let me know for future
Been doing this since day 1. It's pretty nasty lol

Mix it in with MB flip or the low from flip and you gonna have people crying in the corner
 
Yep nailed it pretty much. I will post my thoughts on her when the beta ends and how i felt she stood up to the others. All of this is subject to change so I am not giving up on my character in the slightest. For all we know, she could get a new move,new properties on flipkick,increase in walkspeed ect. Just make sure we give them good feedback and not a bunch of nerf and buff requests.
I'm not either. I've only played her since I got the beta in wave 4 and unless Flash makes it in the beta or another character catches my eye to at least try it's her until whenever. And I say all that with "it's only the beta" in mind. I want everyone to know that. But IF she isn't changed at all, I see some significant problems down the line.