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Beta Black Canary Discussion/Tech Thread

x TeeJay o

Canary Cry Gapless Pressure
Moderator
I'm not either. I've only played her since I got the beta in wave 4 and unless Flash makes it in the beta or another character catches my to at least try it's her until whenever. And I say all that with "it's only the beta" in mind. I want everyone to know that. But IF she isn't changed at all, I see some significant problems down the line.
If she's not changed AT ALL then yeah I would be kinda sad but at least we keep the damage ! lol she's gonna need it
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Hey all, found what seems to be an Ambiguous Crossup Corner setup.

This is still an early work in progress and needs to be refined. Any further testing would be appreciated.

End a juggle into cartwheel, and jump. From my experience it seems that:
-Jump 1 hits in front
-Jump 2 hits behind (crosses up)

This concept also works on block. If the opponent is blocking, cancel your string into cartwheel then jump.
So far this doesn't seem to work on Supergirl as Jump 1 and Jump 2 seem to always hit behind though she can escape this easily with her rising punch on wakeup. Many others can escape this easily with certain movements, invincible wakeups, etc. Perhaps restanding the opponent and trying it out could be looked into or maybe if they're stunned with a Level 2 Scream if a cartwheel can set this up.

You can layer this further by going for Jump 1 which hits in front and cancelling it into her overhead flip which will crossup if blocked, and combo if hit (last clip in the video). So they'd have to block 2 directions, if they read that you are going to cancel into that flip or not.


@x TeeJay o @Eddy Wang @CrimsonShadow @xKhaoTik @REO @others
Sorry if you didn't want a tag I'm just tagging notable BC members in the thread or if you wanted a tag just let me know for future
She has a lot of options and layers, right now i think she is the nightmare of heart players, panic against this character is the worst thing you can do, no random poking out, no random armor, no random wakeup, anything you do on a bad read or a 50-50 chance of being wrong can blow back twice as hard.

Kinda reminds me of how Ibuki momentum was in USF4
 

Raiderhorn

White Lotus
Superman beats Canary free. That is all lol.

Edit: Ok all Canary players. What are your thoughts on this MU? What's the footsie game? How are you getting in? How are you dealing with f2 shenanigans?

In a debate and I want to know how you all feel about it.

@REO @YOMI FOREVER KING @x TeeJay o @THTB @xKhaoTik @Raiderhorn

Please tag any other Canary players I can't think of right now.
Feel free to blow me up aha
For me footsie game is even though I'd give the edge to Supes for his air mobility and anti airing with Canary can be frustrating cause her d2 is slower than others. Getting in shouldn't be too hard cause he has to respect you if you have a Lv3 scream on hand, and I find I almost always have meter so I could MB roll to get close though of course I don't always do that I'm able to get a few cartwheels in from time to time. F2 shenanigans though is a whole different ball park and still need to work on it.
 
Feel free to blow me up aha
For me footsie game is even though I'd give the edge to Supes for his air mobility and anti airing with Canary can be frustrating cause her d2 is slower than others. Getting in shouldn't be too hard cause he has to respect you if you have a Lv3 scream on hand, and I find I almost always have meter so I could MB roll to get close though of course I don't always do that I'm able to get a few cartwheels in from time to time. F2 shenanigans though is a whole different ball park and still need to work on it.
What does she have in footsies that competes with f2?
 

xKhaoTik

Kitana Kahn
What does she have in footsies that competes with f2?
Nothing lol. Her footsies are below average compared to everyone else in the beta. Our main advancing tool is b1, and it's pretty lackluster compared to SG B12, SM F23, etc.

MB b3 is slow. Definitely gets eaten alive by strings. Parry is good tho but you can abuse it since it's death on whiff.


Not saying she's bad or anything. She's just definitely lacking lol
 

xKhaoTik

Kitana Kahn
Her long reaching lows - b1 and b2 - as well as MB b3. Parry could also be used but I'm not too successful with it as I don't react fast enough
I wouldn't say it compares to his footsies tho. B1 is much slower, doesn't have as much range, b12 doesn't even combo into anything and it's unsafe and b2 doesn't lead to much
 
@xKhaoTik has the same view I do. A SM player I played a long set with last night was trying to tell me I have to challenge his f23 breath because it's -2 and f23 trait is only ok because it's only +1.

What I was trying to get across to him was I can't do anything with -2 with the range it leaves me at. A f2 challenge will beat anything Canary has besides parry which is easily baited by anything. It only works if the SM does anot her f2 after breath.
 

Raiderhorn

White Lotus
I wouldn't say it compares to his footsies tho. B1 is much slower, doesn't have as much range, b12 doesn't even combo into anything and it's unsafe and b2 doesn't lead to much
Yeah they are slower, and mainly the threat of her trait that can keep Supes away. I find b2 just keeps Supes in check of how much range I actually have.
 
Yeah they are slower, and mainly the threat of her trait that can keep Supes away. I find b2 just keeps Supes in check of how much range I actually have.
His jump arc, not even with air dash, can make her trait whiff. Found that out today. Like wtf?

B2 is all well and good, but it's still slow and it leads to nothing besides a knockdown. And what can she do on knockdown? He can one of two different wakeups that can either let him escape the set up, trade with it, or completely blow it up.

A setup character can't do any set ups because it can easily get out of them.
 

xKhaoTik

Kitana Kahn
I don't want to give the idea that she gets bodied against superman or anything. I do just fine against them. It's just annoying trying to play footsies with him because she clearly loses that battle. But other than that, she can definitely compete. Just have to play smart
 
I don't want to give the idea that she gets bodied against superman or anything. I do just fine against them. It's just annoying trying to play footsies with him because she clearly loses that battle. But other than that, she can definitely compete. Just have to play smart
Ok so what are you doing then? Getting passed his zoning is whatever, but then what?

You have to get passed his f2 range into the range she does well. I take plenty of games off plenty of SM players too. But any SM that knows how to play against her will keep her outside of that and anytime you make a wrong read with parry, cartwheel or even trait cause like I mentioned, he can jump over her trait even without air dash, you take half life damage into a dive bomb setup, full screen or f2 pressure.

And if she gets hit at all during trait, don't know what frame it becomes active but it can get stuffed completely or it will trade sending them full screen.
 

Raiderhorn

White Lotus
I don't want to give the idea that she gets bodied against superman or anything. I do just fine against them. It's just annoying trying to play footsies with him because she clearly loses that battle. But other than that, she can definitely compete. Just have to play smart
I think a step in the right direction would be to try scream cancels during pressure or in neutral to make him try and do something and we catch him off guard. I haven't gone too much into it nor have I seen anyone else. Has anyone here done so?
 
To be clear, my only problem with this is this MU is the only one that feels truly like a disadvantage. Against all other characters, where they may have slightly more screen control than her, she can still win with smart and patient play.

The SM MU feels like it's a series of reads, perfect execution of different setups, still making the read they won't use a wake-up that'll blow it up or going do full damage and doing everything you can to stay in close. Unless someone can tell me or show me where I'm looking at this wrong I'm going to say she flat out loses.
 
I think a step in the right direction would be to try scream cancels during pressure or in neutral to make him try and do something and we catch him off guard. I haven't gone too much into it nor have I seen anyone else. Has anyone here done so?
Have those been tested for how much advantage or disadvantage those have?
 

Raiderhorn

White Lotus
To be clear, my only problem with this is this MU is the only one that feels truly like a disadvantage. Against all other characters, where they may have slightly more screen control than her, she can still win with smart and patient play.

The SM MU feels like it's a series of reads, perfect execution of different setups, still making the read they won't use a wake-up that'll blow it up or going do full damage and doing everything you can to stay in close. Unless someone can tell me or show me where I'm looking at this wrong I'm going to say she flat out loses.
It's still too early to tell that she just flat out loses. Right now it's difficult but things will change and she does have a few things going for her, you do have to play smart.
 

primedirective

Canaries and Flying Rodents
It's still too early to tell that she just flat out loses. Right now it's difficult but things will change and she does have a few things going for her, you do have to play smart.
I'm still missing out on what footsies strategies/tools to actually implement against SM. B2 is okay in some circumstances, but it's speed kills it. And like Crimson Panther said, b2 doesn't lead anywhere but knockdown. Trait cancelling out of her strings is important for sure, but that's given the assumption that as Canary you've gotten in on SM in the first place. I don't think the problem lies with once we're in range of all her strings, it's getting to that spot. Then there's the continued problem of SM being about to destroy Canary tactics after knockdown with his wakeup attacks.

Additionally, I'd love to hear from folks what strategies they've found to deal with SG after knockdown. As previously mentioned - her DB1 (normal and MB version) has been knocking me out of everything I'm throwing out at her, essentially making every knockdown a reset back to neutral - which is obviously to her benefit.
 
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It's still too early to tell that she just flat out loses. Right now it's difficult but things will change and she does have a few things going for her, you do have to play smart.
Please don't use the "it's too early to tell" cop out. I don't have to play the game for a year to state what I see and what's obvious. Time has nothing to do with what I've said. He IS faster, he DOES have more range, and he DOES completely shut down her game.

Is there something I'm missing? Maybe. Will things change? Well yeah FGs never stay they way are in the beginning. I'm trying to get thougts on what exactly she can do and how other Canary players are playing this MU. So "it's too early to tell" and "you do have to play smart" is not productive.

He does beat her. His tools are simply better. The unknown factor, that will take time, is how badly.
 

Raiderhorn

White Lotus
Please don't use the "it's too early to tell" cop out. I don't have to play the game for a year to state what I see and what's obvious. Time has nothing to do with what I've said. He IS faster, he DOES have more range, and he DOES completely shut down her game.

Is there something I'm missing? Maybe. Will things change? Well yeah FGs never stay they way are in the beginning. I'm trying to get thougts on what exactly she can do and how other Canary players are playing this MU. So "it's too early to tell" and "you do have to play smart" is not productive.

He does beat her. His tools are simply better. The unknown factor, that will take time, is how badly.
It's not a cop out. She's been out for one whole week in a Beta.

We should instead be direction our attention to talk along these lines right now instead of already calling it done and done:

I'm still missing out on what footsies strategies/tools to actually implement against SM. ... Additionally, I'd love to hear from folks what strategies they've found to deal with SG after knockdown.
 
It's not a cop out. She's been out for one whole week in a Beta.

We should instead be direction our attention to talk along these lines right now instead of already calling it done and done:
I'm not calling it done and done. I've been asking what other people's thoughts were and discussing that. So far, no one has brought anything.
 
I'm still missing out on what footsies strategies/tools to actually implement against SM. B2 is okay in some circumstances, but it's speed kills it. And like Crimson Panther said, b2 doesn't lead anywhere but knockdown. Trait cancelling out of her strings is important for sure, but that's given the assumption that as Canary you've gotten in on SM in the first place. I don't think the problem lies with once we're in range of all her strings, it's getting to that spot. Then there's the continued problem of SM being about to destroy Canary tactics after knockdown with his wakeup attacks.

Additionally, I'd love to hear from folks what strategies they've found to deal with SG after knockdown. As previously mentioned - her DB1 (normal and MB version) has been knocking me out of everything I'm throwing out at her, essentially making every knockdown a reset back to neutral - which is obviously to her benefit.
I haven't played a really good SG yet so I can't really comment on this. Is her db1 her wakeup?